I’m putting together a mild 4 week oral stack with mostly mass gains in mind. A Dianabol / Primobolan Stack seems reasonable (although no one seems to talk about it) because dbol is 17aa but Primo isn’t, and Primo doesn’t have the water retention associated with dbol. Also, Primo has a low androgenic effect and muscle gains are considered moderate but solid. Seems like an ideal oral stack for someone looking for just that extra edge (as opposed to blowing up crazy huge). Right?
Primo/Masteron would be more balanced but you won’t get the gains. Primo test works too but your starting to risk wicked androgenic effects… taken all the way you could do primo Halotestin or Primo/tren.
Dbol and Primo will work just fine for what you have in mind.
Primo binds to the AR so is class 1
Dbol does not bid to the AR so is class 2 Therefore you have a good combo of class one and class 2 steroids, and with a short 4 week cycle, you should recover quite quickly, especially with the fact that if you take dbol only in the mornings its not suppressive and primo is the least suppressive. Sounds to me like a good cycle, just make sure that you front your Primo at 1000 mg at least the first week and run it at about at least 5-600 mg per week thereafter. Dbol should be good at about 25mg-35mg a day, keep clomid on hand, I don’t think you need to bother with nolvadex or armidex for this one either because primo, has very little sides and does not aromatize. Good luck
Prisoner, what do you think about the androgenic / anabolic balancing? There are many experts who don’t believe in the class #1 vs. class #2 theory - they just follow the androgenic anabolic theory. But then there is Winny… people add that without regard to its androgenic vs. anablic effects.
I agree with P22 I didn’t want to speak up earlier because I didn’t want to contradict Squatty which wouldn’t have been intended. Some like the class 1 class 2 theory, I don’t really have enough knowledge to have an opinion other then it seems to work for me when making cycles.
Well, unfortunately P22 is wrong. Primo does not bind avidly to the AR. In fact, it is its low androgen content which allows it to be so mild on your balls and testosterone production. So again, like I said, you have two anabolics here. The d-bol will suppress your natural t to a good extent and therefore you will have less androgenic activity in your body then when you are on cycle. Even the primo will suppress a little. This cycle is a BAD IDEA and if you don’t want to listen to me then you deserve to feel like shit while on it.
“Contrary to what many would expect, this compound is actually only a weak agonist of the androgen receptor (AR), with poor binding. It follows, then, that its value must mostly come from non-AR-mediated effects. It is therefore a Class II steroid. Since it is not very effective in activating ARs, it should be stacked with a Class I steroid that is effective in this regard, such as Primobolan, Deca Durabolin, or trenbolone acetate.”
Twisted neck and Squatty:
According to Cy primo does bind to the AR, and providing that you use enough mg/week lean gains are “rather good”. These are all theories. I can only speak from personal experience. Though I have never used primo exclusively for a bulking cycle because of its expence, I can speek to using class 1 and class 2 steroids w/o test: my first cycle was a tren, deca (which is simmilar to primo), dbol cycle, and I gained 25 lbs in 5 weeks. I don’t think you absolutely need test, you said you wanted moderate gains and I believe that if your primo dosage is high enough, you will be quite satisfied with the gains. I am not trying to contradict anyone, I am well aware of the gains you can get from testosterone, But your cycle is only a short one, and you should still be producing your own natural T up untill the third week of the cycle anyway. Lets try to keep an open mind. One of the advantages of primo is that you won’t loose as much of what you gained, so you will feel better about yourself when your “off”. some people when they go “off” and loose a good 10-15 lbs can’t handle it because they have an “idea” in their head of what their self image is and when they loose this size they do not measure up to it anymore. The only disadvantage to using primo I feel is it’s expensive, besides this it is the best steroid to use just because it has the least amount of sides. Where I am from, if you can get primo, it would cost you way more to buy enough amps of primo then it would to buy even more test plus ancillaries to boot. Each has its advantages though, and I do encourage you to try what you have planned, so we all can benifit from your experience.
Is it just me or do people not check out the references that Cy and other science guys list at the end of the article. That’s where the info is at people. Check this one out, it was at the end of one of cy’s articles:
Endocrinology. 1984 Jun;114(6):2100-6.
Relative binding affinity of anabolic-androgenic steroids: comparison of the binding to the androgen receptors in skeletal muscle and in prostate, as well as to sex hormone-binding globulin.
Saartok T, Dahlberg E, Gustafsson JA.
It is unclear whether anabolic steroids act on skeletal muscle via the androgen receptor (AR) in this tissue, or whether there is a separate anabolic receptor. When several anabolic steroids were tested as competitors for the binding of [3H]methyltrienolone (MT; 17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-4,9,11-estratrien-3-one) to the AR in rat and rabbit skeletal muscle and rat prostate, respectively, MT itself was the most efficient competitor. 1 alpha-Methyl-5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (1 alpha-methyl-DHT; mesterolone) bound most avidly to sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) [relative binding affinity (RBA) about 4 times that of DHT]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids bound strongly to the AR in skeletal muscle and prostate [ RBAs relative to that of MT: MT greater than 19-nortestosterone ( NorT ; nandrolone) greater than methenolone (17 beta-hydroxy-1-methyl-5 alpha-androst-1-en-3-one)(Primobolan)
greater than testosterone (T) greater than 1 alpha-methyl-DHT]. In other cases, AR binding was weak (RBA values less than 0.05): stanozolol (17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha- androstano [3,2-c]pyrazol-17 beta-ol), methanedienone (17 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-1,4-androstadien-3-one), and fluoxymesterolone (9 alpha-fluoro-11 beta-hydroxy-17 alpha-methyl-T). Other compounds had RBAs too low to be determined (e.g. oxymetholone (17 beta-hydroxy-2-hydroxymethylene-17 alpha-methyl-5 alpha-androstan-3-one) and ethylestrenol (17 alpha-ethyl-4- estren -17 beta-ol). The competition pattern was similar in muscle and prostate, except for a higher RBA of DHT in the prostate. The low RBA of DHT in muscle was probably due to the previously reported rapid reduction of its 3-keto function to metabolites, which did not bind to the AR [5 alpha-androstane-3 alpha, 17 beta-diol and its 3 beta-isomer (3 alpha- and 3 beta-adiol, respectively)]. Some anabolic-androgenic steroids (only a few synthetic) bound to SHBG (1 alpha-methyl-DHT much greater than DHT greater than T greater than 3 beta-adiol greater than 3 alpha-adiol = 17 alpha-methyl-T greater than methenolone greater than methanedienone greater than stanozolol). The ratio of the RBA in rat muscle to that in the prostate (an estimate of the myotrophic potency of the compounds) was close to unity, varying only between about 0.4 and 1.7 in most cases.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)
Reference the Class I stack with a class II, versus an anabolic with androgenic:
Why do folks keep forgetting that everyone’s body is different. I am amazed that what works like dynamite for some folks just doesn’t do it for others.
There are no “anabolics” and “androgens”. All anabolic steroids are androgens. That’s why - who woulda thunk - they call them anabolic androgenic steroids.
from Bill Roberts:
“Irreversible hoarsening of the voice has been seen in some women from very few tablets of Dianabol: one per day for a few weeks.” This kind of thing happens because it is, in fact, a rather strong androgen, unlike Primobolan or oxandrolone.
It’s a good cycle (if you can call an oral only cycle good), but my only problem with it is the timeframe. Why 4 weeks? You get the worst of both worlds that way. Bill Roberts has stated that 3-5 week cycles give you results only slightly better than a 2 week cycle, while simultaneously giving you the suppression similar to a 6 week cycle. I think you should either do two 2 on/4 off cycles, or get more gear and do a 6 week cycle.
Dont you see what Bill is saying here? He is saying that girls can use primo becuase it’s low in androgens and it won’t fuck with their voice. D-bol is low in adrogens, primo is low in adrogens. I understand that they are both in some degree “androgenic” but guess what, not nearly as much as the test in your own body. And you will be SHUTTING THAT DOWN!!! You are doing a cycle with very few androgens, this is not a good idea. The reason you hang on to your gains after primo is becuase your endocrine system is usually not in shambles after you are done. Well, in this case, your endocrine system wont be in shambles but the d-bol will have knocked your test levels down sufficiently. Hopefully your recovery is quick, otherwise you will not retain your magic primo gains, you will lose them like any other drug when you have a cessation of androgens in your system. This point is not worth arguing any longer.
I had a great response and somehow erased it. Here’s the gist of it:
Old timers that will go on record, and older (10-15 years) Anabolic References all promote cycles of 400-600mgs/wk. Lots of people want that 70’s BB look over a Jay Cutler look.
The relationship between lbm gains and dose is there, but it isn’t linear. By that I mean 2000mgs/wk isn’t gonna get you double the gains of 1000mgs/wk. People have to find what works for them. Personally, I try and use as low a dose as possible, but other people do the opposite and use as high a dose as they can tolerate.
my personal opinion…i think dbol and primobolan would make a nice and solid cycle.
i think people get too caught up in one drug combo or another. if the proper amount of detail is payed to training, eating, rest/recovery…then gains and progress will be made.
Dbol seems to act very anabolic but also have androgenic sides like water gain from aromatization to estrogen. I always thought D-bol was androgenic based on people’s experiences.
But as squatty said, if you shut your T down with D-bol, your fucked unless you add test and get ready for a long clomid / nolva / adex recovery…
I have to disagree with squatty, the difference in the losses from primo and test have to do with water retention not muscle loss. You hold a lot of water while on test that you just don’t hold while on primo, so when you come of these drugs, you loose much more of the “full” look on the test, just because it was water, not muscle… I’m sure you guys get my drift