Delts Really Lagging

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
lol Det being a dick for the sake of being a dick. love it.[/quote]

LOL

When Brofessor X writes stuff like

"That routine looks like crap. I was a “skinny bastard” also.

I didn’t stay one for long because I didn’t do shit like that."

Further, why the hell would a routine for a football player AVOID overhead presses?

That makes no logical sense at all…so yeah…crap is what I would call it based on what I’ve seen in this thread.

Show me the muscle.

I’d love to debate these two issues, but he’s not going to bite.

The WS4SB template helped me put on 25-30lbs, and then when I got fully into Powerlifting I had to change programming, otherwise I would have stuck with it.

There hundreds and hundreds of athletes/gym rats that will have similar success stories using WS4SB

It’s not a crap program. It works.

Why a physique geek would use WS4SB for aesthetics, who knows? But the OP asked what to do to modify the program in order to build some shoulder mass, and OH Pressing for repetition work would be the easy and best fix to it. The thread would’ve/should’ve ended there, but when posters take cheap shots at a program like that, others like myself have the right to call them out on it.

Isn’t that a reason why we have these forums, for discussion and debating, (albeit I’m being a cheeky cunt about it at the moment)?

LOL @ haterz.

Your shit is old and tired…but please, keep following me.

DeFranco does overhead presses in the form of dumbbell clean and press…and this was stated in this thread already…making some of you look strange for all the effort.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ haterz.

Your shit is old and tired…but please, keep following me.

DeFranco does overhead presses in the form of dumbbell clean and press…and this was stated in this thread already…making some of you look strange for all the effort.

[/quote]

I’m not hating when I disagree with you, and want you to further back up your argument.

I thought you were either going to backtrack by knowing a football player who does OH Pressing or backtrack by saying how were all haters and that it’s silly to argue about a template that isn’t for bbing in the bbing forum when you mentioned earlier how crappy of a routine WS4SB all the while.

Please respond.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ haterz.
[/quote]

New Professor X meme

-Say stupid shit
-Call everyone ‘haterz’ when called out on it

Noone’s arguing whether there is any form of pressing in WS4SB or not, people are just belwildered that one of the most unathletic guys here, who has never coached a single athlete, has the nerve to call the work of one of today’s top S&C coaches ‘crap’.

[quote]want2getlean wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ haterz.
[/quote]

New Professor X meme

-Say stupid shit
-Call everyone ‘haterz’ when called out on it

Noone’s arguing whether there is any form of pressing in WS4SB or not, people are just belwildered that one of the most unathletic guys here, who has never coached a single athlete, has the nerve to call the work of one of today’s top S&C coaches ‘crap’.

[/quote]

I’m starting to think Brofessor X is no different than the RougeVampire

Hell, I’m treating the two as if they’re the same.

I’d suggest everyone should do the same

[quote]detazathoth wrote:

[quote]want2getlean wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LOL @ haterz.
[/quote]

New Professor X meme

-Say stupid shit
-Call everyone ‘haterz’ when called out on it

Noone’s arguing whether there is any form of pressing in WS4SB or not, people are just belwildered that one of the most unathletic guys here, who has never coached a single athlete, has the nerve to call the work of one of today’s top S&C coaches ‘crap’.

[/quote]

I’m starting to think Brofessor X is no different than the RougeVampire

Hell, I’m treating the two as if they’re the same.

I’d suggest everyone should do the same[/quote]

RV and PX are probably the same guy, albeit his RV persona isnt racist and biased to black people

OP have you tried pushpresses, power jerks, overhead supports, power snatches? what volume are you using?

[quote]deadlift1992 wrote:
OP have you tried pushpresses, power jerks, overhead supports, power snatches? what volume are you using?[/quote]

Hey. Yeah in past programs i have done power jerks, clean and jerks, pushpresses, military, of course all on different routines lol. But Ive just always seen my shoulders smaller than other muscles. i dont know if you guys know what im talking about ( I should take a picture) But if you looked at me from the front view. With a fit person you would see their lateral delt stick out further than there arm (width wise) but its the opposite with me. Also you would see other muscle seperation from the trap and just full shoulders. But I posted that other program I will try and post back! Maybe I will start a log.

OP I know exactly what you’re talking about, my chest is the same way… well now i’m working on it… for me actually shoulders grow from just about anything… your problem is most likely an activation issue ie mind muscle connection, have you tried isometric exercises before you do your mid delt stuff? i’m talking about wall lateral raises before like idk lateral raises then mp’s?

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
From a sports performance standpoint it is retarded to not have some form of heavy vertical pressing.

Last time I checked, using your football example, clean/press and bb military presses are a staple in the weight room.
[/quote]

Funny how roughly half of the NFL gets away without overhead pressing, as do a giant portion of division 1 college programs. What is retarded is looking at lifts and trying to draw 1=1 comparisons to sporting movements. For gridiron players, strength is strength. It doesn’t matter if it’s developed in the frontal or saggital plane because it is expressed purely in neither. When was the last time you were in a football weight room? Or ANY weight room for that matter.

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:

yes i have. All it really means is how big of a contract your going to get. Not how good of a football player you are. Ask someone involved with scouting and the combine. Its not an accurate test of football skill nor strength on the field. It is a flawed means of comparison amongst the players. The 9 top performers in the past 9 years at the bench press test are all linemen. According to the bench press test brian urlacher and arian foster and rob gronkowski are marginal football players.
[/quote]

Being that the combine is organized by scouts and recruiters (people who evaluate talent) and has included the 225 for reps test (and even the 185 for reps test in the various high school level combines) since it’s inception, I would say you’re wrong. It doesn’t REALLY matter though, because lifting’s sole purpose for a gridiron player is to increase the amount of force they can apply during sporting movement and muscular size (improved leverage). You establish a false dichotomy between strength and on field performance because you fail to realize that for a football player, strength is best expressed via sporting movement rather than in the weight room. Urlacher, Foster, and Gronk are all plenty strong, but their efficiency of movement is preferential to sporting movement rather than training movement. Stop confusing the means with the ends.

Also, I watched the super bowl. Gronkowski is a marginal football player. I heard he got cut from the Patriots, anways. JOKES

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:

well you stick to your template. Let me know when you become a professional athlete…[/quote]

Professional? You mean like someone who earns money from their accomplishments in sport? Det does that. Next time you bring home a grand for being the best lifter at your sloppy mirror picture competition, let me know.

OP, agree with the earlier recommendation: moderately loaded full range of motion (standing) press on repetition day, possibly include press in a max effort rotation if you really care about it that much, and rear delt work/prehab measured in hours, not sets. I can’t emphasize the full ROM part enough if you care about the size and health of your shoulders.

^ wholeheartedly agree

FU StrongHold. You just rendered 5+ pages of dick swinging meaningless. Is this your thing now? Come in fashionably late and take shit over?

I enjoyed this thread. Classic T-Nation. Not quite up to Zerchers but give it time.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
I enjoyed this thread. Classic T-Nation. Not quite up to Zerchers but give it time.[/quote]

This is what happens when I leave the training log section of the site and start posting elsewhere

Stronghold and I are the dynamic fuck shit up duo

Better recognize!

olololololol

The universal solution that has so far worked for me is to lift heavier and eat more. Saved myself a lot of headache!

@ want2getlean

Thats amazing stregth, is that the same guy at different ages, in both vids?

Talking about strict Pressing (standing), there are few who could legit rep 315 for “reps”

The problem i have is the ROM of some claiming insane weights, but nevertheless very strong. When i reach 315lbs for a single i will be very happy

@ Professor X

Do you bent over raises with strict form? I guess i have never really found these to do anything for me…

[quote]Marcello wrote:
@ want2getlean

Thats amazing stregth, is that the same guy at different ages, in both vids? How much is that deadlift?
[/quote]

nah, those are two different kids

that’s an 800lb deadlift, nearly 365kg

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
What would you guys think about this:

Monday: Chest, Tris

Incline Dumbbell 3x6-10
Flat Barbell Bench 3x8-10
Decline Barbell Bench 3x10-12 (havent done decline in about a year, I hear its terrible and I hear its good, so maybe Ill throw it in.)
Pec Deck Fly Machine 2x12-15
Close Grip Bench Press or Skull Crushers 3x6-10
Rope Pushdowns 3x8-12
Abs

Tuesday: Back, Bis, Calves

Barbell Rows 3x6-10
Lat Pulldowns 4x8-12 or Straight Arm Pulldowns not sure
Close grip seated rows 3x8-12
Reverse Flys 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x10-12
Preacher Curls 3x10-12
Seated Calf Press 4x-10-15

Wed: Rest

Thurs: Shoulders, Traps

Standing shoulder Barbell Press 3x6-8
Dumbbell Military 3x8-12
Lateral Or L Raises 4x10-15 ( Not sure here, Would let to have huge lateral deltoids or atleast some lateral… At the moment from front view, my arms still out to my side further than my delts lol)
Rear deltoid flys on incline 3x8-12
Upright Rows 4x10-12
Rack shrugs 4x6-10

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Legs, Lower Back, Forearms

Squats 3x6-8
Deadlifts 3x8-10 ( I dont know if much people do both deads and squats together, but I want both of them incorporated?)
Leg Press 3x8-10
Leg extensions 3x10-12
Leg Curls 3x10-12
Standing Calve Raises 4x8-12
Back extensions 2x10-15
Wrist Rollers 2x2-3

This is 4 days. I would like to do 5 days not sure how without making a separate arm day which I dont want to do. Advice guys? Just made this quickly in between classes![/quote]

If you want to make it 5 days, I would recommend modifying your split to this:

1- Posterior Chain (with the exception of rear delts)
2- Shoulders
OFF
3- Quads/Calves
4- Chest/Triceps
5- Back/Biceps

Posterior chain day would include your trap work, deadlifting, and hamstring work. I’ll give more specifics if you want, but I need to get off the laptop for class lol. Just let me know.[/quote]

Sorry, got distracted yesterday. Your exercise selections aren’t bad, but I’d recommend adding/dropping a few when modifying the split.

  1. Posterior Chain
    A. Deadlift (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6/Active Rest: DB Upright Rows (very light) x 8-12 between sets
    B1. Leg Curls 3x8-12 (2 sec hold at peak)
    B2. DB RDL 3x8-12
    C1. Rope Face Pulls To Above Head 3x8-12 (2 sec hold at peak)
    C2. DB Shrugs 3x8-12
    D. Back Extensions 2x15-20

  2. Shoulders

A. Military Press (standing BB) (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6/AR: DB Laterals (very light)) x 8-12 between sets
B1. Unilateral Cable Lateral Raises (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12 LR
B2. DB Lateral Raise 3x8-12
C1. Rope Face Pulls To Eyes (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
C2. Bent Over Lateral Raise 3x8-12

  1. Quads/Calves

A. Back Squat (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6
B1. Unilateral Leg Press (slow reps) 3x8-12 LR
B2. Leg Press 3x12-15
C. Standing Calf Raises 3x12-15
D. Seated Calf Press 3x12-15

  1. Chest/Triceps

A. Bench Press (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6
B1. DB Squeeze Press (slow reps) 3x8-12
B2. Incline DB Press 3x8-12
C1. Cordova Extensions 3x8-12 LR
C2. Overhead Rope Extensions 3x8-12

  1. Back/Biceps

A. BB Rows 4x8-12
B. Chins/Lat Pulldowns 4x8-12
C1. Rope Straight Arm Pulldowns (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
C2. Kneeling Rope Rows to Lower Chest (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
D. Preacher Curls 4x8-12
E. Hammer Curls To Ears (2 sec hold at peak, slow reps) 3x8-12

I’d suggest something like this for the 5 day split I mentioned. Obviously you can screw around with exercise selection if you know some things work better or worse for you. It’s not perfect or anything, seeing as routines require a level of personalization and tweaking to make the most out of them, but it’s somewhere to start anyway.

In general, just try to lead off with a heavy exercise, then work more with lighter weights on isolation exercises while focusing on MMC. The isolation work should really just be dedicated to improving muscle recruitment on the big lifts. If you feel like you need more work, add sets to the heavy moves rather than the isolation work.

Hope that helps.

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:

[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:
What would you guys think about this:

Monday: Chest, Tris

Incline Dumbbell 3x6-10
Flat Barbell Bench 3x8-10
Decline Barbell Bench 3x10-12 (havent done decline in about a year, I hear its terrible and I hear its good, so maybe Ill throw it in.)
Pec Deck Fly Machine 2x12-15
Close Grip Bench Press or Skull Crushers 3x6-10
Rope Pushdowns 3x8-12
Abs

Tuesday: Back, Bis, Calves

Barbell Rows 3x6-10
Lat Pulldowns 4x8-12 or Straight Arm Pulldowns not sure
Close grip seated rows 3x8-12
Reverse Flys 3x8-12
Hammer Curls 3x10-12
Preacher Curls 3x10-12
Seated Calf Press 4x-10-15

Wed: Rest

Thurs: Shoulders, Traps

Standing shoulder Barbell Press 3x6-8
Dumbbell Military 3x8-12
Lateral Or L Raises 4x10-15 ( Not sure here, Would let to have huge lateral deltoids or atleast some lateral… At the moment from front view, my arms still out to my side further than my delts lol)
Rear deltoid flys on incline 3x8-12
Upright Rows 4x10-12
Rack shrugs 4x6-10

Friday: Rest

Saturday: Legs, Lower Back, Forearms

Squats 3x6-8
Deadlifts 3x8-10 ( I dont know if much people do both deads and squats together, but I want both of them incorporated?)
Leg Press 3x8-10
Leg extensions 3x10-12
Leg Curls 3x10-12
Standing Calve Raises 4x8-12
Back extensions 2x10-15
Wrist Rollers 2x2-3

This is 4 days. I would like to do 5 days not sure how without making a separate arm day which I dont want to do. Advice guys? Just made this quickly in between classes![/quote]

If you want to make it 5 days, I would recommend modifying your split to this:

1- Posterior Chain (with the exception of rear delts)
2- Shoulders
OFF
3- Quads/Calves
4- Chest/Triceps
5- Back/Biceps

Posterior chain day would include your trap work, deadlifting, and hamstring work. I’ll give more specifics if you want, but I need to get off the laptop for class lol. Just let me know.[/quote]

Sorry, got distracted yesterday. Your exercise selections aren’t bad, but I’d recommend adding/dropping a few when modifying the split.

  1. Posterior Chain
    A. Deadlift (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6/Active Rest: DB Upright Rows (very light) x 8-12 between sets
    B1. Leg Curls 3x8-12 (2 sec hold at peak)
    B2. DB RDL 3x8-12
    C1. Rope Face Pulls To Above Head 3x8-12 (2 sec hold at peak)
    C2. DB Shrugs 3x8-12
    D. Back Extensions 2x15-20

  2. Shoulders

A. Military Press (standing BB) (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6/AR: DB Laterals (very light)) x 8-12 between sets
B1. Unilateral Cable Lateral Raises (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12 LR
B2. DB Lateral Raise 3x8-12
C1. Rope Face Pulls To Eyes (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
C2. Bent Over Lateral Raise 3x8-12

  1. Quads/Calves

A. Back Squat (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6
B1. Unilateral Leg Press (slow reps) 3x8-12 LR
B2. Leg Press 3x12-15
C. Standing Calf Raises 3x12-15
D. Seated Calf Press 3x12-15

  1. Chest/Triceps

A. Bench Press (ramp up to ~8RM) 4x6
B1. DB Squeeze Press (slow reps) 3x8-12
B2. Incline DB Press 3x8-12
C1. Cordova Extensions 3x8-12 LR
C2. Overhead Rope Extensions 3x8-12

  1. Back/Biceps

A. BB Rows 4x8-12
B. Chins/Lat Pulldowns 4x8-12
C1. Rope Straight Arm Pulldowns (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
C2. Kneeling Rope Rows to Lower Chest (2 sec hold at peak) 3x8-12
D. Preacher Curls 4x8-12
E. Hammer Curls To Ears (2 sec hold at peak, slow reps) 3x8-12

I’d suggest something like this for the 5 day split I mentioned. Obviously you can screw around with exercise selection if you know some things work better or worse for you. It’s not perfect or anything, seeing as routines require a level of personalization and tweaking to make the most out of them, but it’s somewhere to start anyway.

In general, just try to lead off with a heavy exercise, then work more with lighter weights on isolation exercises while focusing on MMC. The isolation work should really just be dedicated to improving muscle recruitment on the big lifts. If you feel like you need more work, add sets to the heavy moves rather than the isolation work.

Hope that helps.[/quote]

Ok that looks cool. Ill switch out some exercises with ones that have given me success. But thanks for the info and layout. And Im assuming, by b1 and b2 or c1 or c2 you mean supersets?

[quote]JoeyMicas11 wrote:

Ok that looks cool. Ill switch out some exercises with ones that have given me success. But thanks for the info and layout. And Im assuming, by b1 and b2 or c1 or c2 you mean supersets?
[/quote]

Superset or circuit… whichever you’re comfortable with. 0-30 seconds between exercises- keep rests as short as possible, but take a quick rest if you need it.