[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Since my little Socratic approach failed, I give you another hint: having carry-over doesn’t make it a reasonable substitute. Don’t believe me? Then interchange OHP with triceps push downs (TPD). Get it? [/quote]
Except that if OHP is the best accessory it stands to reason it could be substituted with bench and bench be the accessory movement.
Get it?
OHP & tricep push downs, come on man…[/quote]
Not really.
How does it stand to reason that an accessory lift, regardless of how “optimal” it is, a good substitute for the main lift?
Front squats do a lot to bring up many people’s deadlifts (and could be considered the best accessory, for them, right now), but that doesn’t ever make it an adequate substitute for a deadlift.[/quote]
Have people claimed the front squat is the best accessory movement for deadlift? I’ve not seen that.
Well for starters you are assuming the bench is the “main lift” which is fine, but I wasn’t. I was just looking at the two movement patterns and whether or not one could be substituted with the other.
OHP is a similar movement pattern to the bench with obvious difference (agree). Like I said, It stands to reason OHP could (key word) be substituted for bench and bench become the accessory. Anecdotal evidence suggest this to be true. I pasted the quote of Cena and from personal experience my triceps have grown more so in recent months while doing much more over head work than bench work. I’m willing to bet my bench has increased as well.
It all boils down why you’re benching though. If you’re signing up for a powerlifting meet then ya I wouldn’t substitute the two, however, if we’re just talking about “pressing” strength I don’t see why you can’t substitute one for the other and use the other movement as the accessory.
If you go back and read the original quote (Infinite Shore cut the quote down) I think what I wrote makes sense.
OHP and tricep push downs are a stupid comparison.
OHP and tricep push downs are a stupid comparison.
[/quote]
Besides the obvious shoulder involvement, OHP works the tricep in a more elongated position and tricep push downs work it in a more shortened position. From a mechanical standpoint they work the tricep quite differently.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Since my little Socratic approach failed, I give you another hint: having carry-over doesn’t make it a reasonable substitute. Don’t believe me? Then interchange OHP with triceps push downs (TPD). Get it? [/quote]
Except that if OHP is the best accessory it stands to reason it could be substituted with bench and bench be the accessory movement.
Get it?
OHP & tricep push downs, come on man…[/quote]
Not really.
How does it stand to reason that an accessory lift, regardless of how “optimal” it is, a good substitute for the main lift?
Front squats do a lot to bring up many people’s deadlifts (and could be considered the best accessory, for them, right now), but that doesn’t ever make it an adequate substitute for a deadlift.[/quote]
Have people claimed the front squat is the best accessory movement for deadlift? I’ve not seen that.
Well for starters you are assuming the bench is the “main lift” which is fine, but I wasn’t. I was just looking at the two movement patterns and whether or not one could be substituted with the other.
OHP is a similar movement pattern to the bench with obvious difference (agree). Like I said, It stands to reason OHP could (key word) be substituted for bench and bench become the accessory. Anecdotal evidence suggest this to be true. I pasted the quote of Cena and from personal experience my triceps have grown more so in recent months while doing much more over head work than bench work. I’m willing to bet my bench has increased as well.
It all boils down why you’re benching though. If you’re signing up for a powerlifting meet then ya I wouldn’t substitute the two, however, if we’re just talking about “pressing” strength I don’t see why you can’t substitute one for the other and use the other movement as the accessory.
If you go back and read the original quote (Infinite Shore cut the quote down) I think what I wrote makes sense.
OHP and tricep push downs are a stupid comparison.
[/quote]
OHP and tricep push downs are a stupid comparison.
[/quote]
Besides the obvious shoulder involvement, OHP works the tricep in a more elongated position and tricep push downs work it in a more shortened position. From a mechanical standpoint they work the tricep quite differently. [/quote]
Yea, and triceps are a two joint muscle, which is often overlooked. A Pressdown will generally not work the shoulder extension aspect of the triceps, which is kind of a big thing to omit. That’s why I prefer pullover/extensions, though I still do pressdowns from time to time.
Course bench and Ohp don’t work the shoulder extension aspect either.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Have people claimed the front squat is the best accessory movement for deadlift? I’ve not seen that.[/quote]
Actually, yeah. Reed (and Sam Byrd) has on a few occasions; Chase Karnes mentioned it in an elitefts article as one of the best accessories; Louie Simmons related in an article that some eastern european lifters used the front squat like that. I’ve seen it a few other places too.
[quote]Well for starters you are assuming the bench is the “main lift” which is fine, but I wasn’t. I was just looking at the two movement patterns and whether or not one could be substituted with the other.
OHP is a similar movement pattern to the bench with obvious difference (agree). Like I said, It stands to reason OHP could (key word) be substituted for bench and bench become the accessory. Anecdotal evidence suggest this to be true. I pasted the quote of Cena and from personal experience my triceps have grown more so in recent months while doing much more over head work than bench work. I’m willing to bet my bench has increased as well.[/quote]
I was looking at it as the OHP being substituted for the bench as the only pressing movement. Not doing OHP as primary with bench as assistance.
I agree with you though that there’s plenty that carries over between the two, at least if your triceps or front delts are the weak link. If you’re weak off the chest, I don’t think there’s much of any carryover.
I think that’s pretty much it.
I’m not exactly disagreeing that they can’t be substituted and get similar benefits. Both will build upper body mass (just not quite the same things) along with all your other benefits that come from a heavier compound lift.
The idea that “because one’s a good accessory for the other, it’s a good substitute” just doesn’t make sense to me.
I was looking at it as the OHP being substituted for the bench as the only pressing movement. Not doing OHP as primary with bench as assistance.
[/quote]
I think doing either as the “only” pressing movement is a mistake.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
The idea that “because one’s a good accessory for the other, it’s a good substitute” just doesn’t make sense to me.[/quote]
Well to be fair the quote was that it’s the best accessory so ideally it has the most carryover of any other accessory.
I’m not trying to say you should replace one with the other. All I’m saying is that if OHP helps build my bench (has the best carryover) then in my mind bench can help build my OHP. So one can be substituted with the other.
It’s like the FS example (thanks for the info by the way), if a front squat is “the best” accessory for the deadlift then it stands to reason you could substitute FS for deadlift as the main emphasis of your training while utilizing deadlifts (or some variation) as an accessory movement while building the deadlift.
So to summarize, if my flat bench is stalling and I want to back off of it for awhile, does it make sense to focus on building up my OHP for a training cycle (6 weeks)?
e.g.:
Current cycle:
I’m benching Monday and Thursday with OHP on Saturday
Next cycle:
OHP on Monday and Thursday, bench on Saturday.
Btw, since I started the thread, here’s what I’ve done:
-Eating at least 3000 calories a day (Felt like I was stuffing myself at first… I really wasn’t eating enough before)
-Lifting much higher volume (10-20 rep sets), using paused reps, isometrics, 100 rep finishers… All kinds of wacky junk that’s different than what I was doing
And here’s what I got:
-Workout motivation is back, although I have a bit of ‘fitness ADD’
-Getting good pumps again
-Feeling like “I could go again in an hour” after a workout, although I still have some headaches.
-Hungry when I’m supposed to be
-DOMS like I haven’t had in ages
Here’s what I still need to do:
-infinity_shore’s recommendation to sort out micronutrients (this is what I know the least about)
-Angus1’s advice to employ periodization
I’ve also done incline bench once and OHP once. I’m front squatting instead of back squatting. Haven’t deadlifted yet.