Deload Week Turns into Deload Month

Training
41

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I’m just breaking into the intermediate category, and switched my focus from powerlifting to strongman because I like OH work. I agree that the value benching is overemphasized. Only my opinion based on personal experience, but squatting and deadlifting improve the posterior chain and posture and do a world of good for getting average office worker strong enough to stand up straight. I don’t think benching has any carryover to improve the day to day life of the average person. Again, from personal experience, OHP has improved my posture and shoulders. In full disclosure, I do incline bench every week as assistance to OH.

Also, from an aesthetic I’d rather have broad shoulders than big meaty tits. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I wish my ego would let me stop benching so much to focus on OHP more. Unfortunately, years of “waddya bench bro” have taken their toll, and I’ve had the shoulder injuries to go with it.[/quote]
So your position is that bench injured your shoulders, but somehow Ohp wouldn’t have if you had focused on it instead? Are you familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder and what happens when you raise your arm over your head?

For joe average lifter, the bench press makes more sense because it recruits more pressing muscles. If you are also squatting, deadlifting, rowing etc, the extra core activation in the overhead press isn’t really doing anything you aren’t already doing in abundance.

42

I’m gonna posit that a routine that incorporates bench press AND OH press is probably better than one or the other. If my bench is stalling, wouldn’t it make sense to focus on a similar movement that I might have some space to make some “noob gains” in for one training cycle? Nobody’s talking about swearing off flat press here.

I don’t think OH press and flat bench have NOTHING in common… They’re more similar than, say, squats and lateral raises. You have a bar close to your body, and then you push it up against gravity by straightening your arms. I remember Christian Thibaudeau explaining it briefly in the T-Nation Bench Press video here:

EDIT: Relevant content from about 1:50 to 2:30

Bench Press - YouTube

I consider the decline-flat-incline-overhead press to be more of a spectrum than 4 discrete, unrelated exercises.

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
touch�?�©, I reread my comment and it is a little douch-ie. No offence intended to anyone. I have been fighting bitch-tits most of my life, so its a personal thing. [/quote]

Yeah, I had that going on when I was younger… Since I started lifting, my chest has started looking “full” instead of flabby, but I still have this one band of fat running across my pec that’s really stubborn. If anything, that’s been MORE motivation for me to train chest.

It’s like when girls think they have fat arms so they’re afraid that exercising them will just make them bigger. Building muscle on the area will scare much of that fat away and create a much better look.

43

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
“upperbody push”? Wud? There is a very simple and bloody obvious difference between OHP and the bench press. The former does not involve the pecs much at all and is almost all anterior delts. The primary muscle drivers for the BP are the anterior delts, pecs, and triceps. So it should be obvious why the two should NOT really be seen as substitutes for each other.

Most of the time you say some dumb or at least cryptic shit.[/quote]

You and I tend to not agree on things.
[/quote]

So you think I am wrong here? You make it sound like the issue at hand is a matter of opinion.[/quote]

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.

44

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I’m just breaking into the intermediate category, and switched my focus from powerlifting to strongman because I like OH work. I agree that the value benching is overemphasized. Only my opinion based on personal experience, but squatting and deadlifting improve the posterior chain and posture and do a world of good for getting average office worker strong enough to stand up straight. I don’t think benching has any carryover to improve the day to day life of the average person. Again, from personal experience, OHP has improved my posture and shoulders. In full disclosure, I do incline bench every week as assistance to OH.

Also, from an aesthetic I’d rather have broad shoulders than big meaty tits. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I wish my ego would let me stop benching so much to focus on OHP more. Unfortunately, years of “waddya bench bro” have taken their toll, and I’ve had the shoulder injuries to go with it.[/quote]
So your position is that bench injured your shoulders, but somehow Ohp wouldn’t have if you had focused on it instead? Are you familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder and what happens when you raise your arm over your head?
[/quote]
Nope, my position is that excessive benching with poor form without any attention paid to balancing movements is what injured my shoulder.

[quote]
For joe average lifter, the bench press makes more sense because it recruits more pressing muscles. If you are also squatting, deadlifting, rowing etc, the extra core activation in the overhead press isn’t really doing anything you aren’t already doing in abundance.[/quote]

What makes more sense for the average joe lifter depends entirely on 'average joe lifter’s goals.

45

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
“upperbody push”? Wud? There is a very simple and bloody obvious difference between OHP and the bench press. The former does not involve the pecs much at all and is almost all anterior delts. The primary muscle drivers for the BP are the anterior delts, pecs, and triceps. So it should be obvious why the two should NOT really be seen as substitutes for each other.

Most of the time you say some dumb or at least cryptic shit.[/quote]

You and I tend to not agree on things.
[/quote]

So you think I am wrong here? You make it sound like the issue at hand is a matter of opinion.[/quote]

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.
[/quote]

Hah, you completely missed the boat here. Go through it again and you might be able to spot your error.

46

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
“upperbody push”? Wud? There is a very simple and bloody obvious difference between OHP and the bench press. The former does not involve the pecs much at all and is almost all anterior delts. The primary muscle drivers for the BP are the anterior delts, pecs, and triceps. So it should be obvious why the two should NOT really be seen as substitutes for each other.

Most of the time you say some dumb or at least cryptic shit.[/quote]

You and I tend to not agree on things.
[/quote]

So you think I am wrong here? You make it sound like the issue at hand is a matter of opinion.[/quote]

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.
[/quote]

Hah, you completely missed the boat here. Go through it again and you might be able to spot your error.[/quote]

I get the discussion was about substituting one for the other vs. one being an accessory for the other.

I’m on the boat.

47

^Like I said “not proof of anything”

Just interesting and somewhat relevant to the discussion being had.

48

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.

[/quote]
I think you could find numerous top lifters that either love OHP for their bench or hate it. about 1/3 of people have a type of acromion that makes OHP more of a risk of impingement than horizontal pressing motions. OHP never did anything for my bench except make my shoulders ache.

49

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I’m just breaking into the intermediate category, and switched my focus from powerlifting to strongman because I like OH work. I agree that the value benching is overemphasized. Only my opinion based on personal experience, but squatting and deadlifting improve the posterior chain and posture and do a world of good for getting average office worker strong enough to stand up straight. I don’t think benching has any carryover to improve the day to day life of the average person. Again, from personal experience, OHP has improved my posture and shoulders. In full disclosure, I do incline bench every week as assistance to OH.

Also, from an aesthetic I’d rather have broad shoulders than big meaty tits. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I wish my ego would let me stop benching so much to focus on OHP more. Unfortunately, years of “waddya bench bro” have taken their toll, and I’ve had the shoulder injuries to go with it.[/quote]
So your position is that bench injured your shoulders, but somehow Ohp wouldn’t have if you had focused on it instead? Are you familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder and what happens when you raise your arm over your head?
[/quote]
Nope, my position is that excessive benching with poor form without any attention paid to balancing movements is what injured my shoulder.

So working the anterior delt even more through overhead pressing but doing less for your pecs is your idea of balancing in that scenario?

And thank you for being deliberately obtuse, but I think it’s safe to say joe average is lifting for a balance of strength and aesthetics, which is what makes him joe average lifter in the first place.

50

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
So working the anterior delt even more through overhead pressing but doing less for your pecs is your idea of balancing in that scenario?

And thank you for being deliberately obtuse, but I think it’s safe to say joe average is lifting for a balance of strength and aesthetics, which is what makes him joe average lifter in the first place.[/quote]

Doesn’t invoking “Joe Average” mean we’re talking about someone who wants to be an all-rounder? As in, distinct from a power lifter or discus thrower for whom specificity is a consideration. In that sense, I understand the logic of choosing bench press over OH press; more muscles involved, bigger bragging rights.

But again, wouldn’t Joe Average benefit the most from just doing both?

51

[quote]JaggedG wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
So working the anterior delt even more through overhead pressing but doing less for your pecs is your idea of balancing in that scenario?

And thank you for being deliberately obtuse, but I think it’s safe to say joe average is lifting for a balance of strength and aesthetics, which is what makes him joe average lifter in the first place.[/quote]

Doesn’t invoking “Joe Average” mean we’re talking about someone who wants to be an all-rounder? As in, distinct from a power lifter or discus thrower for whom specificity is a consideration. In that sense, I understand the logic of choosing bench press over OH press; more muscles involved, bigger bragging rights.

But again, wouldn’t Joe Average benefit the most from just doing both?[/quote]
Yes, I didn’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t do both.

I was arguing the notion that the bench is the better of the two if you had to choose one, and I think oh pressing has become far too romanticized lately. And I do think it’s important to understand that someone who injures themself benching is probably not going to be able to press overhead effectively for the same reasons that got them injured on bench.

Like eccha I’ve had myriad issues pressing overhead for the last 10 years. Most people will probably be fine doing oh pressing variations, but it can easily lead to shoulder issues if they’re not careful.

52

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
Yes, I didn’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t do both.

I was arguing the notion that the bench is the better of the two if you had to choose one, and I think oh pressing has become far too romanticized lately. And I do think it’s important to understand that someone who injures themself benching is probably not going to be able to press overhead effectively for the same reasons that got them injured on bench.

Like eccha I’ve had myriad issues pressing overhead for the last 10 years. Most people will probably be fine doing oh pressing variations, but it can easily lead to shoulder issues if they’re not careful.[/quote]
Whereas I have elbow issues benching that I don’t have overhead.

Also, I have shoulder issues doing both, which are being slowly corrected by overhead variations.

Ultimately I think focusing purely on benching neglects things (specifically scapular stability through a large range of motion) and focusing purely on overhead neglects things.

Aesthetically, I’d probably lean toward benching and lateral raises. But I think from a strength standpoint, in the useful for day to day life sense, it’s valuable to do both.

53

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I’m just breaking into the intermediate category, and switched my focus from powerlifting to strongman because I like OH work. I agree that the value benching is overemphasized. Only my opinion based on personal experience, but squatting and deadlifting improve the posterior chain and posture and do a world of good for getting average office worker strong enough to stand up straight. I don’t think benching has any carryover to improve the day to day life of the average person. Again, from personal experience, OHP has improved my posture and shoulders. In full disclosure, I do incline bench every week as assistance to OH.

Also, from an aesthetic I’d rather have broad shoulders than big meaty tits. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I wish my ego would let me stop benching so much to focus on OHP more. Unfortunately, years of “waddya bench bro” have taken their toll, and I’ve had the shoulder injuries to go with it.[/quote]
So your position is that bench injured your shoulders, but somehow Ohp wouldn’t have if you had focused on it instead? Are you familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder and what happens when you raise your arm over your head?
[/quote]
Nope, my position is that excessive benching with poor form without any attention paid to balancing movements is what injured my shoulder.

So working the anterior delt even more through overhead pressing but doing less for your pecs is your idea of balancing in that scenario?

And thank you for being deliberately obtuse, but I think it’s safe to say joe average is lifting for a balance of strength and aesthetics, which is what makes him joe average lifter in the first place.[/quote]

I think we probably have similar views but the internet is getting in the way of us agreeing. I’m happy to take the blame.

Just to sum up my thoughts though:

Both OHP and BP should be a priority in most “average joe” workouts.
They should be balanced with a reasonable amount of pulling exercises.
Shitty form and over-training will get you injured.

54

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:
Yes, I didn’t mean to imply that you shouldn’t do both.

I was arguing the notion that the bench is the better of the two if you had to choose one, and I think oh pressing has become far too romanticized lately. And I do think it’s important to understand that someone who injures themself benching is probably not going to be able to press overhead effectively for the same reasons that got them injured on bench.

Like eccha I’ve had myriad issues pressing overhead for the last 10 years. Most people will probably be fine doing oh pressing variations, but it can easily lead to shoulder issues if they’re not careful.[/quote]
Whereas I have elbow issues benching that I don’t have overhead.

Also, I have shoulder issues doing both, which are being slowly corrected by overhead variations.

Ultimately I think focusing purely on benching neglects things (specifically scapular stability through a large range of motion) and focusing purely on overhead neglects things.

Aesthetically, I’d probably lean toward benching and lateral raises. But I think from a strength standpoint, in the useful for day to day life sense, it’s valuable to do both.[/quote]

This sums up my position pretty perfectly too.

55

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]HeavyTriple wrote:

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]TheKraken wrote:
I’m just breaking into the intermediate category, and switched my focus from powerlifting to strongman because I like OH work. I agree that the value benching is overemphasized. Only my opinion based on personal experience, but squatting and deadlifting improve the posterior chain and posture and do a world of good for getting average office worker strong enough to stand up straight. I don’t think benching has any carryover to improve the day to day life of the average person. Again, from personal experience, OHP has improved my posture and shoulders. In full disclosure, I do incline bench every week as assistance to OH.

Also, from an aesthetic I’d rather have broad shoulders than big meaty tits. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, and I wish my ego would let me stop benching so much to focus on OHP more. Unfortunately, years of “waddya bench bro” have taken their toll, and I’ve had the shoulder injuries to go with it.[/quote]
So your position is that bench injured your shoulders, but somehow Ohp wouldn’t have if you had focused on it instead? Are you familiar with the anatomy of the shoulder and what happens when you raise your arm over your head?
[/quote]
Nope, my position is that excessive benching with poor form without any attention paid to balancing movements is what injured my shoulder.

So working the anterior delt even more through overhead pressing but doing less for your pecs is your idea of balancing in that scenario?

And thank you for being deliberately obtuse, but I think it’s safe to say joe average is lifting for a balance of strength and aesthetics, which is what makes him joe average lifter in the first place.[/quote]

I think we probably have similar views but the internet is getting in the way of us agreeing. I’m happy to take the blame.

Just to sum up my thoughts though:

Both OHP and BP should be a priority in most “average joe” workouts.
They should be balanced with a reasonable amount of pulling exercises.
Shitty form and over-training will get you injured.
[/quote]
Ha, I think what I consider a neutral tone comes off as combative, so mea culpa.

Yes, agreed, do both ideally.

56

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.

[/quote]
I think you could find numerous top lifters that either love OHP for their bench or hate it. about 1/3 of people have a type of acromion that makes OHP more of a risk of impingement than horizontal pressing motions. OHP never did anything for my bench except make my shoulders ache. [/quote]

I understand that. I just happened upon the quote and thought it was relevant. At least some athletes find OHP carry over to their bench.

57

Sick maybe?

58

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.
[/quote]

I think you could find numerous top lifters that either love OHP for their bench or hate it. about 1/3 of people have a type of acromion that makes OHP more of a risk of impingement than horizontal pressing motions. OHP never did anything for my bench except make my shoulders ache.[/quote]

I understand that. I just happened upon the quote and thought it was relevant. At least some athletes find OHP carry over to their bench.[/quote]

Since my little Socratic approach failed, I give you another hint: having carry-over doesn’t make it a reasonable substitute. Don’t believe me? Then interchange OHP with triceps push downs (TPD). Get it?

59

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Not exactly proof of anything, but I just read a quote where John Cena credits max effort OHP to his bench success. He said they are the best bench accessory.
[/quote]

I think you could find numerous top lifters that either love OHP for their bench or hate it. about 1/3 of people have a type of acromion that makes OHP more of a risk of impingement than horizontal pressing motions. OHP never did anything for my bench except make my shoulders ache.[/quote]

I understand that. I just happened upon the quote and thought it was relevant. At least some athletes find OHP carry over to their bench.[/quote]

Since my little Socratic approach failed, I give you another hint: having carry-over doesn’t make it a reasonable substitute. Don’t believe me? Then interchange OHP with triceps push downs (TPD). Get it? [/quote]

Except that if OHP is the best accessory it stands to reason it could be substituted with bench and bench be the accessory movement.

Get it?

OHP & tricep push downs, come on man…

60

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Since my little Socratic approach failed, I give you another hint: having carry-over doesn’t make it a reasonable substitute. Don’t believe me? Then interchange OHP with triceps push downs (TPD). Get it? [/quote]
Except that if OHP is the best accessory it stands to reason it could be substituted with bench and bench be the accessory movement.

Get it?

OHP & tricep push downs, come on man…[/quote]
Not really.

How does it stand to reason that an accessory lift, regardless of how “optimal” it is, a good substitute for the main lift?

Front squats do a lot to bring up many people’s deadlifts (and could be considered the best accessory, for them, right now), but that doesn’t ever make it an adequate substitute for a deadlift.