Death Touch In Action

otoko · August 15, 2007, 7:53pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
otoko wrote:

My argument was specific to kicking and in general to striking. When I compared karateka kicking to Muay Thai kicking you said that one group does it correctly and the other doesn’t.

You seem to be confused. I’m not the guy who had that comment.

Boxing, Muay Thai, karate or any striking discipline alone won’t be successful in mma. How do you go from saying karatekas don’t kick correctly compared to Muay Thai guys and also saying that there is only one correct way to do things to comparing karate to wrestling and bjj?

Again, I’m not the guy who posted the original Muay Thai comment.

That wasn’t your initial point. I or Donut or Sentoguy are not saying karate is superior to wrestling or bjj. You are comparing striking to grappling. Whereas I was comparing striking to striking. You seem deadset on not giving any credit to karate practioners so you changed the point of your argument.

Not me man. I am the guy who is saying that:

[b]1. If you are going to start out in a maa career with one skill as your base Karate is one of the worst.

It’s best to train in several different disciplines.
Early on in mma when the martial artists were usually one art practitioners, pure Karate guys got destroyed. And it seems the most successful arts were BJJ and other grappling disciplines.[/b]

MMA is still an evolving sport and I personally think I should keep a more open mind and not stick to dogma.

I agree you should.

[/quote]

You are right you aren’t the guy my comments were aimed at. Sorry about that.

otoko · August 15, 2007, 8:02pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Oops. LOL. You’re right about Randleman of course, sorry that completely slipped my mind. I guess I’ve just gotten quite impatient with him due to his lack of success in Pride, since I thought he had incredible potential when he first started.

True.

And my point about him training with Coleman wasn’t to suggest that Coleman isn’t a good wrestler, or that he hasn’t had success in the past. My point is that all he does is wrestling (he’s one dimensional). If Randleman had gone to another camp that would teach him striking and submissions he probably would have done a lot better in his career.

Oh, I agree. But take a look at how far Coleman has gone with just Wrestling. Now compare that to how far people have gone with just Karate.

Do you see my point a little clearer now?

I’m also not arguing that arts like wrestling and BJJ aren’t effective. But generally the reason why a pure grappler beats a pure striker is because the grappler makes the striker fight their fight.

Interesting statement.

But, why do they make them fight “their fight?”

This is an entirely different discussion, but it’s worth having at some point.

Of course the person who is all around good will have the best chances of winning.

Yep.

In regards to Hughes and his boxing skills, who knows, he may actually be able to win a local title. I know people who boxed golden gloves locally and got pretty far, but they are far from what I would consider a talented boxer. Hughes’ strength and stamina would probably take him pretty far.

I’m good friends with a professional boxing trainer and he has told me repeatedly, in his own words, that “Matt Hughes is no boxer.” After seeing most of his fights I agree heartily. But you only have to look at his fights to know that he does not use boxing much at all, if ever, and when he does it is only partially effective. He has relied upon his Wrestling Skills to take him to his world Championships and his incredible win loss record. How many traditional Karate guys have relied almost solely upon their Karate skills and been successful in mma?

As far as him having a great MMA record purely because of his wrestling skills, I’d have to disagree. I honestly think that much of his success has come from his attributes (his strength and stamina). But I’m not disagreeing that his wrestling has helped him.

That’s actually a comical statement. What about the great Gymnasts, sprinters and Olympic caliber boxers, and TKD specialists? They have “Strength, and stamina”, some may even exceed Hughes very own. But, of course it’s the skill factor that carries Hughes to victory. And that skill is WRESTLING.

Of course, he did get owned by BJ in their first fight and Ken Hallman twice early on in his career (when he was purely a wrestler).

Yea, he sure did. But how many pure Karate guys beat him?

The reason why he was able to beat BJ the second time, and beat GSP during their first fight, and beat Trigg and a number of others is because he wised up and realized that he needed to be well rounded. So he started training in boxing and Jiu-Jitsu.

He actually became a very good submission specialist. Which of course is grappling.

By the way how come Royce didn’t tap?

LOL…I can’t get over that one…

[/quote]

Who fights pure anything these days? Nobody does. A pure wrestler vs a pure judoka or something like that. Those days are gone. As far as I know Greco Roman guys don’t punch or kick, or choke. Judoka don’t punch or kick or GNP. Boxers don’t kick or throw, trip shoot or submit.
No discipline can just be transferred as is and be successful in mma these days.

Zap_Branigan · August 15, 2007, 9:27pm

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
THANK YOU!! to sentoguy, otoko, and Donut for kicking in some sensical answers.

…
[/quote]

I think someone should thank them in every fighting thread.

Chewie · August 15, 2007, 9:40pm

[quote]otoko wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
No discipline can just be transferred as is and be successful in mma these days.
[/quote]

ahem, marksmanship.

Kidding, kidding. You are absolutely correct.

SkyzykS · August 15, 2007, 10:45pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Not me man. I am the guy who is saying that:

[b]1. If you are going to start out in a maa career with one skill as your base Karate is one of the worst.

It’s best to train in several different disciplines.
Early on in mma when the martial artists were usually one art practitioners, pure Karate guys got destroyed. And it seems the most successful arts were BJJ and other grappling disciplines.[/b]

[/quote]

You win the obvious statement of the year award, presented by the Office of Redundancy Office.

MMA does still mean Mixed Matrial Arts, right?

Sentoguy · August 16, 2007, 1:24am

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Oh, I agree. But take a look at how far Coleman has gone with just Wrestling. Now compare that to how far people have gone with just Karate.

Do you see my point a little clearer now?
[/quote]

I’ve understood your point the whole time, and haven’t been arguing that wrestling, or BJJ, or Muay Thai, or boxing, aren’t effective arts. My point is simply that other arts have things to offer and that not all karate schools are “McDojo’s”.

Clearly they make them fight their fight, because that’s where they are at an advantage. If you know that you are incredibly good at a certain aspect of fighting, then generally you want to utilize that aspect.

Even as great as arts like wrestling and BJJ are, their practitioners aren’t stupid enough to think that if they try to stand and strike with a superior striker that they won’t be at a disadvantage. So, they attempt to force the striker into their comfort zone (grappling).

If they succeed then generally the odds are in their favor that they will win. But, if the striker succeeds in keeping the fight a striking contest, then the odds are on the striker’s side.

Oh, I’m not arguing with you that Hughes is “no boxer.” But, I know people who I wouldn’t consider boxers that have gone decently far as well (golden gloves). And those people have nowhere near Hughes’ attributes.

As far as him not using boxing all that much, I’d agree that he prefers to wrestle. But, look at his second fight with Penn. He was actually getting the better of Penn in a striking contest during that fight, and Penn is no slouch when it comes to striking.

Is it though? When ever I’ve heard people’s reactions to rolling with Hughes the first thing they comment on is his strength. Not his wrestling skills (though people are generally impressed with those as well).

Interesting that you bring up gymnasts, there was a gymnast (alternate on the U.S. olympic team) that used to train with my instructors. They said that in a very short period of time, he became one of their most skilled grapplers/submission artists. His strength, flexibility, and natural athleticism allowed him to improve at a very fast rate.

In regards to Hughes, sure he’s a good wrestler, yet nowhere near the caliber of Koscheck, Randleman, or Coleman. Nor is he as good of a BJJ practitioner as Royce or BJ. Yet, because of his strength and stamina (natural attributes) he is one of the most dominant mma fighters in history. He also beat Royce and BJ at their own games. How long has he been doing Jiu-Jitsu for? How long have those two been doing Jiu-Jitsu for?

Once again, my point is simply that his attributes allow him to keep up with and surpass those of lesser natural abilities. I am not however arguing that he isn’t a skilled fighter, or doesn’t train hard to achieve the level of skill that he has.

How many pure Karate guys can you name who fight in MMA?

Yes, he has become a very good submission specialist. His reverasal on GSP during their first fight was text book. And once again, I’m not arguing against the effectiveness of grappling.

Royce didn’t tap because the Gracies are stubborn like that. They think that tapping out is dishonorable. They’d rather have you break their arm than submit. Royce is a tough guy and would have let Hughes break his arm. I know people who are the same way.

He also may have been trying to bait Hughes into letting the submission go. A lot of times if someone has a submission on you, but you play it off like you’re not feeling it, they may let it go and go for something else. That may give you a chance to reverse them. So it’s possible that his refusal to submit may have been strategic.

Good training,

Sentoguy

otoko · August 16, 2007, 1:25pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:

Who fights pure anything these days? Nobody does. A pure wrestler vs a pure judoka or something like that. Those days are gone. As far as I know Greco Roman guys don’t punch or kick, or choke. Judoka don’t punch or kick or GNP. Boxers don’t kick or throw, trip shoot or submit.
No discipline can just be transferred as is and be successful in mma these days.

Well, that’s true enough. But when they did I never remember pure Karate doing much of anything in mma.
[/quote]

You are right. That goes for boxers and kickboxers as well. Or any strictly striking discipline. As far as stand-up striking is concerned there have been guys from karate backgounds who have been successful. Andy Hug, Francisco Filho, Sam Greco, Glaube Feitosa. Yes these guys do have to adapt more to k-1 rules than their Muay Thai counterparts and it isn’t easy taking karate into a ring.

Many haven’t even tried. I used to hear doubt concerning “pure” karateka fighting in K-1. It seems if you are an elite karateka you can compete and win against elite kickboxers and Muay Thai and Dutch kickboxers. They are always interesting to watch from a technical stand point because they do things differently from Muay Thai guys and the Dutch. I think now that there are a couple legitimate ways to kick the Thai way and the Karate way.

AdamC · August 16, 2007, 5:13pm

[quote]Xylene wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Please tell me that you’re a teenager because that’s the only way that you can be forgiven for such stupidity.

MMA guys are trained…They actually go full contact. Do you know what that means?

They go full force against each other, grappling, kicking, punching etc. Granted they don’t grab balls or gouge eyes, but neither do the traditional martial artists. And in addition to that the traditional martial artists don’t even go full contact, it’s a freaking game of tag.

If you think someone like Randy Couture couldn’t rip your little TKD instructors head off …and gouge his eyes out in a street fight you really have a monumental amount to learn about reality.

WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT TKD???
Re-read my previous post.

I already know MMA fights go full contact w/ one another.
But they do it hand-to-hand and they fight with RULES. On the street there are no rules and people commonly use weapons to assault, mug, and rob.
We weren’t talking about competing; we were talking about DEFENDING YOURSELF/SELF-DEFENSE!

BTW: Krav Maga(sp?) teaches kicking to the balls. It’s only about 40 years old, so I don’t know if you would consider that a TMA.

:)[/quote]

This argument always crops up.

Granted , there is a completely different mentality involved in a street fight, as well as different dangers to be aware of and levels of morality involved. But you are assuming someone who does mma would be incapable of using a bottle, knife or biting someone. It depends on the mentality of the individual.

AdamC · August 16, 2007, 5:21pm

[quote]Chewie wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Xylene wrote:
gatesoftanhauser wrote:
Sigh*… Why is it Taekwondo and all other retarded martial arts forms are dominated by fatasses with no social skills? If you want to learn to defend yourself, take up MMA.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

MMA is a SPORT. There are rules, regulations, and a arena. It would be stupid to slap a gogoplata or triangle choke on a guy w/ his friends standing near while on the sidewalk. DO you think he/they is/are going to “fight fair” on the street?

If you want to defend yourself become proficient at handling a firearm, knife, eye gouging, kicking/punching to the balls, biting, etc.

Please tell me that you’re a teenager because that’s the only way that you can be forgiven for such stupidity.

MMA guys are trained…They actually go full contact. Do you know what that means?

They go full force against each other, grappling, kicking, punching etc. Granted they don’t grab balls or gouge eyes, but neither do the traditional martial artists. And in addition to that the traditional martial artists don’t even go full contact, it’s a freaking game of tag.

If you think someone like Randy Couture couldn’t rip your little TKD instructors head off …and gouge his eyes out in a street fight you really have a monumental amount to learn about reality.

No, I am pretty sure he is right. You could be the best fighter in the world and not see four of his friends all with guns. I don’t think there is any form of martial arts that can defend you from a bullet. Maybe somebody will claim there is, and then we can laugh at them.

He is also right about the whole guard. In the eight seconds it takes for you to choke someone out, they could stab you a few times. I can only imagine how terrible that would be if you decide to slap a triangle on someone and have them “check your oil” with a switchblade. Or worse yet, his buds slamming you in the face with chairs, beer bottles and knives.

Oh, and I practiced MMA for four years.

I also think it is a good say: “Never roll on concrete.”

That snap you hear isn’t applause.

[/quote]

haven’t you seen Equilibrium?

I hear you on the pulling guard thing. I’ve always thought being proficient in a striking art is much more useful than being proficient in a grappling art when it comes to street fights. I’d rather be able to bang people out nice and quick than be tying someone up or rolling around on the floor whilst someone smashes me with a bottle.

AdamC · August 19, 2007, 5:22pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
AdamC wrote:
Chewie wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Xylene wrote:
gatesoftanhauser wrote:
Sigh*… Why is it Taekwondo and all other retarded martial arts forms are dominated by fatasses with no social skills? If you want to learn to defend yourself, take up MMA.