Death Touch In Action

Off Topic
61

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Whenever the topic of martial arts comes up it always ends up deteriorating into a MMA vs. TMA debate. Why?

MMA is a great sport and the skills that it teaches can and do work in real combat. However, due to the "4 R’s (Rules, Refs, Rounds and Ring) it can teach some bad habits. Therefore, if one is really intent on utilizing it in self defense situations the practitioners must also make modifications to some of the tactics, as well as filling in the holes that are left by the rules.

Actually not very difficult to do and a great method of self defense training.

TMA has gotten a bad name in the states because sadly as some have pointed out, the quality (and credibility) of some TMA’s have gone down the toilet. Several have mentioned TKD and honestly I understand where you are coming from. The world TKD Federation and it’s schools are pretty much the epitome of “McDojo’s” or “Black Belt Factories” as someone else called them.

Basically you have 6 year old kids who are black belt or higher, have only been training for 2 years and couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

But, this is not, at least in my opinion, an accurate representation of TMA. There are still TMA schools in the U.S. that train hard, spar full contact, and actually earn their ranks.

I know a Shotokan practitioner out on the west coast who still trains hardcore and feels the same way that a lot of us serious martial artists do about the current state of some TMA schools in this country. He was one of Shihan Oshima’s students (black belt level) and has told me some stories about the type of training that they used to have to go through. Let me just say that it was at least as intense as what MMA guys go through.

For those of you who don’t know who Oshima is, he was Gichin Funakoshi’s (the creator of Shotokan Karate) prize student.

They used to punch each other full force, using no protection (gloves, headgear, etc…) as a result he’s got permanent damage to the blood vessels in his face.

Now that in my opinion is an accurate representation of TMA. In fact, all TMA used to train hard, spar full contact, etc… It’s only in recent years here in the states where instructors have to worry about law suits and other legal ramifications that many of the arts have gotten watered down and lost their combative effectiveness.

Heck, even internal arts like Tai Chi have their roots in actual combat. If you find a good Tai Chi teacher, one who still understands the combative side to the art, you’d be surprised to find that it has a lot more to offer than just the healing aspects that most people today utilize it for.

In the end what matters isn’t the name of the system, or how long it’s been around. What matters is that what it teaches works. There are principles of movement, power development, structural strength that are found in TMA’s that you seldom if ever hear MMA guys talking about. But they are effective. On the other hand MMA has clearly demonstrated the need to be a well rounded fighter and that martial artists are athletes and should train like athletes.

Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses. Both sides can learn from one another. There is no one universal BEST way.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

Very insightful post.

62

[quote]thomas.galvin wrote:
otoko wrote:
There isn’t one correct way to do everything. It is obvious that a Muay Thai practitioner and a karateka kick differently.

Yes. One groups generally does it correctly, and the other generally does not.[/quote]

Well you are wrong. I get the idea you don’t have any experience with karate kicking and only Muay Thai. They are different yet both are effective. If you have done both then you would be aware of the technical differences.
If you stick to the idea that muay thai guys are the only ones who kick correctly then are you saying Mirko, Filho, Feitosa are kicking incorrectly?
Stylistically and technically many of the Dutch gyms turn out fighters who are not tradtionally Muay Thai. That is why it is called the Dutch style.
Brank Cikatic, Mirko’s old coach in Croatia has stated the influence of karate on kickboxing in Europe. It also used to be coached (at the k-1 level)not to get into a low kicking battle with a karateka as there is no advantage to be gained and karateka are usualy extremely well versed in low-kicking e.g. Alexei Ignoshov(Muay Thai) vs Francisco Filho(Kyokushin Karate) in the 2001 K-1 GP.
If karate based fighters can do any one thing it is kick very well.
Your answer was extremely arrogant.

63

[quote]thomas.galvin wrote:
otoko wrote:
There isn’t one correct way to do everything. It is obvious that a Muay Thai practitioner and a karateka kick differently.

Yes. One groups generally does it correctly, and the other generally does not.[/quote]

Hahahahahaha. You should probably ask anyone Mirko has kicked about his “wrong” kicking technique. Or maybe Stefan Leko after Hari wired his jaw for 6 months with a TKD spinning hook kick.

65

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
otoko wrote:

If karate based fighters can do any one thing it is kick very well.
Your answer was extremely arrogant.

Good point, this is obvious by all of the Karate guys that have taken mma titles…oh wait…I don’t know of many that have.
[/quote]

Oh wait…Bas Rutten, Mirko Filipovic, George St Pierre, Nakamura, Andy Hug, and Takanori Gomi (to name a few) all have karate backgrounds and held (hold) prestigius combat sports titles. All martial arts can contribute to MMA. Is karate the most relevant?

The way we see it in mainstream McDojo America, hell no. But Gomi, for example, learned striking in a dojo and has tooled almost everybody at the LW division who has chose to stand with him. GSP and Mirko very cleary retain the karate style kicks and both have put away many opponents making liberal use of them.

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked. But in modern MMA so does the guy who only wrestles, the guy who only boxes, etc.

67

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked .

And that’s my point.
[/quote]

You didn’t make that point very clearly. Yes maybe the image you have of karate are those Mcdojos. That is just one side of karate. Usually in mma these days a guy proficient in only one discipline won"t be successful in mma. If that was your point your karate remarks would be applied to anybody with expertise in a single discipline. I have learned to respect karatekas and people from all backgrounds. I also tried to introduce some new information that would have put karate in a different light but you ignored that information.

68

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked .

And that’s my point.
[/quote]

Read the rest of the statement. Donut isn’t singling out Karate in his statement. He’s saying that anyone who is one dimensional won’t go too far in MMA, regardless of style. Look at Kevin Randleman for example. Probably no better wrestler in MMA (perhaps with a case being made for Koscheck) yet Randleman has never once held a belt in any division. Are we going to now argue that wrestling is ineffective because Randleman hasn’t held a belt?

No, that would be absurd.

The reason Randleman has never held the belt isn’t because he’s a wrestler, but because he can only wrestle. Unfortunately he’s chosen to train at a camp full of other wrestlers (Hammer House) and never humbled himself and learned how to strike effectively and utilize submissions effectively. In other words, he’s one dimensional.

A fighter who is an all around good fighter (can grapple, strike, utilize/counter submissions, has good conditioning) is going to be good, regardless of what arts they choose to fill those needs.

Now I’m not saying that I disagree that there are certain schools/systems that have lost a lot of their combative edge, but the name of the system isn’t as important as the results that the system generates.

Good training,

Sentoguy

69

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked .

And that’s my point.

Read the rest of the statement. Donut isn’t singling out Karate in his statement. He’s saying that anyone who is one dimensional won’t go too far in MMA, regardless of style. Look at Kevin Randleman for example. Probably no better wrestler in MMA (perhaps with a case being made for Koscheck) yet Randleman has never once held a belt in any division. Are we going to now argue that wrestling is ineffective because Randleman hasn’t held a belt?

No, that would be absurd.

The reason Randleman has never held the belt isn’t because he’s a wrestler, but because he can only wrestle. Unfortunately he’s chosen to train at a camp full of other wrestlers (Hammer House) and never humbled himself and learned how to strike effectively and utilize submissions effectively. In other words, he’s one dimensional.

A fighter who is an all around good fighter (can grapple, strike, utilize/counter submissions, has good conditioning) is going to be good, regardless of what arts they choose to fill those needs.

Now I’m not saying that I disagree that there are certain schools/systems that have lost a lot of their combative edge, but the name of the system isn’t as important as the results that the system generates.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

I agree with your point 110% bro, but just for clarification sake Randleman was the UFC HW champion after he beat Pete Williams at UFC 23. There are plenty of good examples though, just look at Dean Lister. He could tap out almost anyone on the planet in less than 30 seconds in BJJ, but he looks like he poops himself everytime he gets hit in the face.

70

While the people in these videos and most like them are laughable, the concept of the “death touch” does have a shread of validity, at least in my experience. There are traditional Chinese healers (trained as martial artists) that can really make you feel like you have been electrocuted and really mess with you, even if you try to fight it or don’t believe in it. But these people are incredibly few and very far between and don’t make Internet videos.

71

THANK YOU!! to sentoguy, otoko, and Donut for kicking in some sensical answers. All great, and those posts illustrate precisely my point, which perhaps I did not make very clear.

The point being that in the good old USA we have a very, very inaccurate view of what serious TMA training looks like, and it is idiotic to think that the ONLY true representations of traditional martial arts are in America. Big points for sentoguy mentioning that Tai Chi was once a battlefield MA (that is to say, that soldiers who were tai chi men were very respected in the Chinese military). Note that I am NOT saying that tai chi is the most effective MA for combat in the present day. Simply that there are techniques in it that are combat applicable, and at one time that was very well understood. Not so today. There are a lot of TMA combat applications that can and will work in the “real world” and against unwilling, trained opponents. The problem is finding a dojo in the States that does things the way they were originally intended–full contact. There is more than one way to “do things effectively”, as witnessed by Mirko, GSP, et al.

Agree also that if you are 1 dimensional, you’ll get tanked sooner or later.

76

I agree.

77

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked .

And that’s my point.

Read the rest of the statement. Donut isn’t singling out Karate in his statement. He’s saying that anyone who is one dimensional won’t go too far in MMA, regardless of style.

Yes, I fully understand his point. But, in reality there is much more to it than that.

As I stated in an earlier post, a mma fighter today must train in other disciplines. But in reality this is more true of a discipline like Karate which does not lend itself to mma as well as other disciplines. Let’s take Matt Hughes for example. Does anyone here actually think that Matt Hughes can box?

He has been training in boxing for a few years now. Do you think that he could even win a Golden Gloves title? No. How about a local boxing title? No.

He has one of the better records in mma because of his wrestling skills. PERIOD. I am well aware that he has learned submission skills and that has helped him. But over all, he will take you down and pound you.

Now how many Karate guys rely so heavily on their basic skills of Karate to win mma fights over and over again?

Give me a list.

My original point is spot on. Karate guys make shitty mma fighters.

Look at Kevin Randleman for example. Probably no better wrestler in MMA (perhaps with a case being made for Koscheck) yet Randleman has never once held a belt in any division. Are we going to now argue that wrestling is ineffective because Randleman hasn’t held a belt?

Um…Randleman is a former Heavyweight Champion of the UFC. Capturing that title on November 19, 1999 beating Pete Williams in UFC23. I guess you forgot about that huh? And he did it at the time with pure Wrestling. Again I ask you how many champions in the early UFC that were purists, came from a pure Karate background?

None that I can think of how about you?

No, that would be absurd.

Your memory is absurd…sorry I had to.

The reason Randleman has never held the belt isn’t because he’s a wrestler, but because he can only wrestle.

But he did hold the Heavyweight Title of the UFC, and he did it with pure Wrestling. How many Karate men have done that? Oh yea I already said this huh?

Unfortunately he’s chosen to train at a camp full of other wrestlers (Hammer House) and never humbled himself and learned how to strike effectively and utilize submissions effectively. In other words, he’s one dimensional.

Yea, he trains with Mark Coleman another UFC champion who gained his belt with pure Wrestling.

A fighter who is an all around good fighter (can grapple, strike, utilize/counter submissions, has good conditioning) is going to be good, regardless of what arts they choose to fill those needs.

Ah, at last a point that you are actually correct on. It’s not my contention, and never was, that one should be good in only one discipline. On the contrary I agree totally with your statement above. However, it is my contention that most Karate guys who go to mma lose if they rely totally on their Karate ability. And it’s not like that with other superior disciplines. Wrestling and BJJ to name two.[/quote]

My argument was specific to kicking and in general to striking. When I compared karateka kicking to Muay Thai kicking you said that one group does it correctly and the other doesn’t.

Boxing, Muay Thai, karate or any striking discipline alone won’t be successful in mma. How do you go from saying karatekas don’t kick correctly compared to Muay Thai guys and also saying that there is only one correct way to do things to comparing karate to wrestling and bjj?

That wasn’t your initial point. I or Donut or Sentoguy are not saying karate is superior to wrestling or bjj. You are comparing striking to grappling. Whereas I was comparing striking to striking. You seem deadset on not giving any credit to karate practioners so you changed the point of your argument.

There are not many guys with karate background in mma. What is your point? Karete guys make shitty mma fighters? Or was it there is only one correct way to do things? Why aren’t you addressing this point any more? That was the whole reason I replied to your post in the first place.

I think everybody knows any fighter relying strictly on his striking skills won’t have a good career in mma. This isn’t the point I was making.

You seem not to want to acknowledges that karateka can kick well and heve those skills transfer over to mma and striking based combat sports(K-1).

I used to think that boxing used to be the only legitimate way to use your hands. I still thought that until recently. If you have boxed for any reasonable amount of tuime I think it is easy to critique many of the mma fighters for their “poor” boxing. There are some schools of thought that say that punching in mma is/should be different.

The reality is that traditional boxing skills have been effective for some fighters and “mma striking” has been successful as well. Chuck Liddell for example. Thinking about I have to admit I have no expereince punching in many other ways besides boxing.

I also don’t know why some guys in mma strike the way they do(technique wise). Maybe they have very good reasons for that. I just don’t know them and have been too close minded to accept otherwise. MMA is still an evolving sport and I personally think I should keep a more open mind and not stick to dogma.

78

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

A karate guy, who does nothing but karate (even Kyoushikan or Shotokan), yeah he gets his ass kicked .

And that’s my point.

Read the rest of the statement. Donut isn’t singling out Karate in his statement. He’s saying that anyone who is one dimensional won’t go too far in MMA, regardless of style.

Yes, I fully understand his point. But, in reality there is much more to it than that.

As I stated in an earlier post, a mma fighter today must train in other disciplines. But in reality this is more true of a discipline like Karate which does not lend itself to mma as well as other disciplines. Let’s take Matt Hughes for example. Does anyone here actually think that Matt Hughes can box?

He has been training in boxing for a few years now. Do you think that he could even win a Golden Gloves title? No. How about a local boxing title? No.

He has one of the better records in mma because of his wrestling skills. PERIOD. I am well aware that he has learned submission skills and that has helped him. But over all, he will take you down and pound you.

Now how many Karate guys rely so heavily on their basic skills of Karate to win mma fights over and over again?

Give me a list.

My original point is spot on. Karate guys make shitty mma fighters.

Look at Kevin Randleman for example. Probably no better wrestler in MMA (perhaps with a case being made for Koscheck) yet Randleman has never once held a belt in any division. Are we going to now argue that wrestling is ineffective because Randleman hasn’t held a belt?

Um…Randleman is a former Heavyweight Champion of the UFC. Capturing that title on November 19, 1999 beating Pete Williams in UFC23. I guess you forgot about that huh? And he did it at the time with pure Wrestling. Again I ask you how many champions in the early UFC that were purists, came from a pure Karate background?

None that I can think of how about you?

No, that would be absurd.

Your memory is absurd…sorry I had to.

The reason Randleman has never held the belt isn’t because he’s a wrestler, but because he can only wrestle.

But he did hold the Heavyweight Title of the UFC, and he did it with pure Wrestling. How many Karate men have done that? Oh yea I already said this huh?

Unfortunately he’s chosen to train at a camp full of other wrestlers (Hammer House) and never humbled himself and learned how to strike effectively and utilize submissions effectively. In other words, he’s one dimensional.

Yea, he trains with Mark Coleman another UFC champion who gained his belt with pure Wrestling.

A fighter who is an all around good fighter (can grapple, strike, utilize/counter submissions, has good conditioning) is going to be good, regardless of what arts they choose to fill those needs.

Ah, at last a point that you are actually correct on. It’s not my contention, and never was, that one should be good in only one discipline. On the contrary I agree totally with your statement above. However, it is my contention that most Karate guys who go to mma lose if they rely totally on their Karate ability. And it’s not like that with other superior disciplines. Wrestling and BJJ to name two.[/quote]

Oops. LOL. You’re right about Randleman of course, sorry that completely slipped my mind. I guess I’ve just gotten quite impatient with him due to his lack of success in Pride, since I thought he had incredible potential when he first started.

And my point about him training with Coleman wasn’t to suggest that Coleman isn’t a good wrestler, or that he hasn’t had success in the past. My point is that all he does is wrestling (he’s one dimensional). If Randleman had gone to another camp that would teach him striking and submissions he probably would have done a lot better in his career.

I’m also not arguing that arts like wrestling and BJJ aren’t effective. But generally the reason why a pure grappler beats a pure striker is because the grappler makes the striker fight their fight.

In instances where the striker makes the grappler fight their fight, the striker generally wins. Look at a lot of Mirko’s fights, or Anderson Silva, or Chuck. Sure, all of those guys were smart enough to learn some ground skills (I know Anderson has a black belt from the Noguera Brothers, and Chuck used to wrestle). But they used those skills mainly to keep the fight standing and force the grapplers that they were facing to have to strike with them.

My point is that regardless of the name of the style used, if you can make your opponent fight your fight, then the odds are in your favor. But if they make you fight their fight, then the odds are against you.

Of course the person who is all around good will have the best chances of winning.

In regards to Hughes and his boxing skills, who knows, he may actually be able to win a local title. I know people who boxed golden gloves locally and got pretty far, but they are far from what I would consider a talented boxer. Hughes’ strength and stamina would probably take him pretty far.

As far as him having a great MMA record purely because of his wrestling skills, I’d have to disagree. I honestly think that much of his success has come from his attributes (his strength and stamina). But I’m not disagreeing that his wrestling has helped him.

Of course, he did get owned by BJ in their first fight and Ken Hallman twice early on in his career (when he was purely a wrestler). The reason why he was able to beat BJ the second time, and beat GSP during their first fight, and beat Trigg and a number of others is because he wised up and realized that he needed to be well rounded. So he started training in boxing and Jiu-Jitsu.

Good training,

Sentoguy