DL = back exercise. Period. I can’t believe people are debating this.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high[/quote]
http://www.propeptide.com/athletes/andy-bolton-training.html
Hey can you cite me sources saying that deadlifts don’t primarily use the lower body?? Aside from your own posts, please.
Also, I only brought up Westside because they’re a group of people who know their shit and they happen to train DL on lower body days. I brought them up because you thought it was retarded that the deadlift was considered for lower body day.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness. in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.[/quote]
Why are you changing it from deadlift to rack pulls? Rack pulls is much more back b/c you take the leg drive out of it unless you ramp the weight up. That’s like for me to prove my point bringing sumo deadlift into the argument b/c it most definitely is more leg oriented. But they are two different movements, so i’ve kept it to just conventional deadlift. For someone with that many posts you seem to really need to read more instead of posting so much, you might learn a little and improve your lifts more.
[quote]Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high
http://www.propeptide.com/athletes/andy-bolton-training.html
Hey can you cite me sources saying that deadlifts don’t primarily use the lower body?? Aside from your own posts, please.
Also, I only brought up Westside because they’re a group of people who know their shit and they happen to train DL on lower body days. I brought them up because you thought it was retarded that the deadlift was considered a lower body day. [/quote]
Have you heard of DC? They deadlift for thickness, now shut up.
[quote]UAphenix wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness. in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.
Why are you changing it from deadlift to rack pulls? Rack pulls is much more back b/c you take the leg drive out of it unless you ramp the weight up. That’s like for me to prove my point bringing sumo deadlift into the argument b/c it most definitely is more leg oriented. But they are two different movements, so i’ve kept it to just conventional deadlift. For someone with that many posts you seem to really need to read more instead of posting so much, you might learn a little and improve your lifts more.[/quote]
because you guys are saying that the hamstrings do majority of the work on the way UP. how the fuck does this happen? if that were true, you could overload the hamstrings through rackpulls, which doesn’t fucking happen. your hamstrings are static during the lift UP on an RDL how is that not understood? you dont need a fucking anatomy book to know that.
you could say sumo uses more leg drive than conventional, and then i would tell you not if you do them T&G as your legs hardly ever bend again, same as a conventional.
You guys are arguing past each other. Deadlifts work for back thickness. Hamstrings function as a hip extensor. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Go back to school, all of you!
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high
http://www.propeptide.com/athletes/andy-bolton-training.html
Hey can you cite me sources saying that deadlifts don’t primarily use the lower body?? Aside from your own posts, please.
Also, I only brought up Westside because they’re a group of people who know their shit and they happen to train DL on lower body days. I brought them up because you thought it was retarded that the deadlift was considered a lower body day.
Have you heard of DC? They deadlift for thickness, now shut up.[/quote]
That’s awesome, now show me Dante saying deadlifts are not primarily lower body and that they don’t use hamstrings at all.
No shit they make your back thicker - that isn’t even what this is about.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
UAphenix wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness. in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.
Why are you changing it from deadlift to rack pulls? Rack pulls is much more back b/c you take the leg drive out of it unless you ramp the weight up. That’s like for me to prove my point bringing sumo deadlift into the argument b/c it most definitely is more leg oriented. But they are two different movements, so i’ve kept it to just conventional deadlift. For someone with that many posts you seem to really need to read more instead of posting so much, you might learn a little and improve your lifts more.
because you guys are saying that the hamstrings do majority of the work on the way UP. how the fuck does this happen? if that were true, you could overload the hamstrings through rackpulls, which doesn’t fucking happen. your hamstrings are static during the lift UP on an RDL how is that not understood? you dont need a fucking anatomy book to know that.
you could say sumo uses more leg drive than conventional, and then i would tell you not if you do them T&G as your legs hardly ever bend again, same as a conventional.[/quote]
The hamstring has two functions. It allows for knee flexion. But knee flexion is not the main purpose of the hamstring. The main purpose of the hamstring is hip extension, like say locking out a deadlift or squat.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
UAphenix wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness. in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.
Why are you changing it from deadlift to rack pulls? Rack pulls is much more back b/c you take the leg drive out of it unless you ramp the weight up. That’s like for me to prove my point bringing sumo deadlift into the argument b/c it most definitely is more leg oriented. But they are two different movements, so i’ve kept it to just conventional deadlift. For someone with that many posts you seem to really need to read more instead of posting so much, you might learn a little and improve your lifts more.
because you guys are saying that the hamstrings do majority of the work on the way UP. how the fuck does this happen? if that were true, you could overload the hamstrings through rackpulls, which doesn’t fucking happen. your hamstrings are static during the lift UP on an RDL how is that not understood? you dont need a fucking anatomy book to know that.
you could say sumo uses more leg drive than conventional, and then i would tell you not if you do them T&G as your legs hardly ever bend again, same as a conventional.[/quote]
Apparently you do need an anatomy book. What you have stated is incorrect. Again please revise the biomechanics of the deadlift, and the anatomy of the posterior chain muscles before you post again.
To DaveyD, I doubt any of the posters are arguing that the DL works great as a back exercise. Instead we are merely debating the role of the leg muscles in the DL (and it seems its variations).
I’ll do my best to give a brief description. In a bit of a rush, but I’ll try.
In the start position, you have a neutral back, knees are bent, hips are bent, and you’re leaning forwards gripping the bar. As you push up, you tend to drive through your heels.
Imagine what’s happening at each joint here. At the knee, your knee is extending - quads are involved. At the hip, your hip is also extending - glute and hamstrings are involved. At your back, nothing much is happening, it’s simply moving through space - an isometric contraction.
So while you ARE loading your back with a heavy weight, it’s actually the lower body that is CAUSING the weight to move. Your back just ‘supports’ it; sorry I can’t think of a better term/description.
When I deadlift, I get sore hams, glutes, erectors and sometimes middleback for days. I get far more DOMs in my hamstrings from DLs than I do from leg curls (not that that is in itself indicative of anything).
When you are rackpulling you can lift more weight than a DL off the floor… there is a reduced ROM for your glutes/hamstrings to pull through.
If there are any errors in this post I’m sorry - rushing off to the gym… deadlift (on back) day. 
[quote]DaveyD wrote:
You guys are arguing past each other. Deadlifts work for back thickness. Hamstrings function as a hip extensor. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Go back to school, all of you![/quote]
I was going to post this same sentiment earlier following my last post. Arguing about the biomechanics of a deadlift is silly, because the functionality of the movement has been explained ad nauseum in this thread. However, on the other hand, the developmental benefits from a deadlift are primarily, albeit not exclusively, intended for back growth, as it pertains to bodybuilding.
Which is why in the case of DC training, for instance, a deadlift is classified as a ‘back thickness’ exercise, not a ‘hamstring’ or ‘quad’. This does not infer, though, the deadlift is only for ‘back thickness’ growth just as a squat is more than ‘quad’ growth or a bench press is more than ‘chest’ growth.
A rack pull is a ‘back thickness’ exercise and RDL falls under ‘hamstring’. Yet, the back involvement in RDLs are always taken into consideration for exercise selection and placement in DC.
Whereas this is not believed to be a concern with potential leg recruitment of a deadlift or rack pull. RDLs should not follow a deadlift/rack pull sessions and vice versa, but the session preceding dl/rp day will always include ‘hamstring’ and ‘quad’ exercises.
I believe this sheds some insight into the point of how a deadlift places the greatest stress and growth factor on the back muscles, regardless of the biomechanics of a deadlift requiring (significant or not) recruitment of leg muscles. Furthermore, at this point, arguing over whether a deadlift is a lower body exercise or not is purely semantics.
[quote]Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high
www.propeptide.com/athletes/andy-bolton-training.html
Hey can you cite me sources saying that deadlifts don’t primarily use the lower body?? Aside from your own posts, please.
Also, I only brought up Westside because they’re a group of people who know their shit and they happen to train DL on lower body days. I brought them up because you thought it was retarded that the deadlift was considered a lower body day.
Have you heard of DC? They deadlift for thickness, now shut up.
That’s awesome, now show me Dante saying deadlifts are not primarily lower body and that they don’t use hamstrings at all.
No shit they make your back thicker - that isn’t even what this is about.[/quote]
show me where the FUCK I said that hamstrings arent used at all? you’re pulling shit out of your ass.
this is certainly about deadlifts making your back bigger, as in my first fucking post i asked why you would do deadlifts on a lower body day instead of a back day. am i crazy? wtf
Interesting to see the muscles that exrx.net shows deadlifts working:
Look, I don’t know as much about anatomy as some of you, however I think what you “feel” is going to be a function of your form, weight and muscle imbalance. So someone with stronger erectors may feel it in their hamstrings more, until the hamstrings come up to speed.
Then it may be the lower back that’s their weak point as they progress to heavier weight. So ones perception of what kind of exercise this is may be skewed based on their weak link.
I still think the OP should do DB bent-over-rows:
Instead of Barbell bent-over-rows:
If he’s complaining about lower back being sore the next day before deads.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
UAphenix wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness.
in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.
Why are you changing it from deadlift to rack pulls? Rack pulls is much more back b/c you take the leg drive out of it unless you ramp the weight up. That’s like for me to prove my point bringing sumo deadlift into the argument b/c it most definitely is more leg oriented.
But they are two different movements, so i’ve kept it to just conventional deadlift. For someone with that many posts you seem to really need to read more instead of posting so much, you might learn a little and improve your lifts more.
because you guys are saying that the hamstrings do majority of the work on the way UP. how the fuck does this happen? if that were true, you could overload the hamstrings through rackpulls, which doesn’t fucking happen. your hamstrings are static during the lift UP on an RDL how is that not understood? you dont need a fucking anatomy book to know that.
you could say sumo uses more leg drive than conventional, and then i would tell you not if you do them T&G as your legs hardly ever bend again, same as a conventional.[/quote]
i could overload my hammies with rack pulls, as long as the height of the pegs isnt foolish high
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Rape Weight wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high
www.propeptide.com/athletes/andy-bolton-training.html
Hey can you cite me sources saying that deadlifts don’t primarily use the lower body?? Aside from your own posts, please.
Also, I only brought up Westside because they’re a group of people who know their shit and they happen to train DL on lower body days. I brought them up because you thought it was retarded that the deadlift was considered a lower body day.
Have you heard of DC? They deadlift for thickness, now shut up.
That’s awesome, now show me Dante saying deadlifts are not primarily lower body and that they don’t use hamstrings at all.
No shit they make your back thicker - that isn’t even what this is about.
show me where the FUCK I said that hamstrings arent used at all? you’re pulling shit out of your ass.
this is certainly about deadlifts making your back bigger, as in my first fucking post i asked why you would do deadlifts on a lower body day instead of a back day. am i crazy? wtf[/quote]
Then why have you been throwing a shitfit when we all said hamstrings are a primary mover in the deadlift? And that they’re traditionally a lower body exercise? No one in this thread has said deadlifts don’t make your back bigger - they make your entire backside bigger. All we’ve said is that its mechanics make it a lower body exercise, even though it stimulates both upper and lower. Christ.
You’ve said that RDLs and rack pulls are “all back.” I’m not going to take the time to read through everything, but if you couldn’t understand why we said deadlifts are lower body you probably thought they were “all back” too.
I think if we’ve learned anything from this thread, it’s that you most likely have formal issues in the above lifts. 781 strikes again.
well for a guy with form issues, my lifts in the above three arent too shabby, especially because i never get lower back pain from doing them (how does that happen?). keep in mind i dont use a belt either.
deadlift 455 x 7
rackpull 545 x 6 although i havent done these in a while so its probably higher now
RDL 365 x 5
smh@ class of 09
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
well for a guy with form issues, my lifts in the above three arent too shabby, especially because i never get lower back pain from doing them (how does that happen?). keep in mind i dont use a belt either.
deadlift 455 x 7
rackpull 545 x 6 although i havent done these in a while so its probably higher now
RDL 365 x 5
smh@ class of 09[/quote]
So fucking what? Why do you repeatedly mention your lifts as if they’re enough evidence for you to win your argument? You wouldn’t be the only person to perform lifts at those weights with bad form… are you trying to be special?
That’s like saying, “I have AIDS, but I’m still alive!!” You still have AIDS.
because people with considerably weaker lifts are trying to school me.
which is like getting winded from going up a flight of stairs and then trying to tell someone how to run a marathon.
you still have aids.
and if i had bad form, i would get an injury or at least PAIN. as i mentioned i dont use a belt and i still dont get lower back pain lifting those weights for reps to failure. so yes, if my form is as bad as you claim it is (with no visual proof) then yes, i am certainly special.
I have recently tried to train the OP way (deadlifting after upper body day) and the traps definitely take some extra beating it feels. Not really sore,just presumably more fatigued than they would otherwise be.
Anyway, only trick I’ve come up with is doing them unilaterally or semi-unilaterally. Formerly I did one legged and later switched to a kind of sprinter’s position with one leg in the rear for support (saves my knees).
This necessitates the use of far lighter weight and I feel it’s more about the lower body as the weight will be light for the upper body to handle,if you get what I mean. Of course this requires twice the work for balance so.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
because people with considerably weaker lifts are trying to school me.
which is like getting winded from going up a flight of stairs and then trying to tell someone how to run a marathon.
you still have aids.
and if i had bad form, i would get an injury or at least PAIN. as i mentioned i dont use a belt and i still dont get lower back pain lifting those weights for reps to failure. so yes, if my form is as bad as you claim it is (with no visual proof) then yes, i am certainly special.[/quote]
Do you think your lifts are that impressive??
No, having bad form does not mean you will have been paralyzed and given cancer. Look at all those shitty youtube videos with horrible form - those people aren’t hurt yet either. Doesn’t mean they should talk about the mechanics of the lift they’re improperly performing though, does it?