[quote]Rape Weight wrote:
rundymc wrote:
I consider myself a lurker mostly, as you can tell from my post count. That said I got to reply to this, cos there’s either some serious misinformation or misunderstanding in this thread.
The DL does work the back muscles, the lats, traps, and of course the spinal erectae. But the prime movers are always going to be the hamstrings, glutes and quads (the extent of each depends on the variation of deadlift).
My understanding has been that the lower back works in isometric fashion, holding the vertebrae in position in relation to the hip. There’s no way they actually move shit in the concentric portion unless you round your back on the eccentric, and if you’re using any appreciable weight, I doubt you can re-arch your back if you do.
The same goes with the RDL, or SDL, the lower back isn’t “lifting” shit, or shouldn’t be. They are working though, same with the upper back muscles. And just for the record, both variations shift even more focus on the leg muscles.
I can see why someone would include DL’s in an upper body session, due to the stimulus to the upper back (lots of weight will do that). However saying “your back is lifting” is misleading, if not somewhat ignorant.
So in summary: my original point a page back.[/quote]
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
just out of curiosity, what do you deadlift? im hoping the guy saying i shouldnt be allowed out of the play pen is at least stronger than me[/quote]
170kg 3 weeks ago, 85kg bodyweight. That’s like asking another racecar driver what’s his fastest time when he doesn’t know how the wheels end up turning.
I don’t expect a high degree of technical knowledge on the internet but deadlifting not a leg exercise? That’s like saying the pull up is used primarily to train the grip?? Please??
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
danchubb wrote:
Holy shit what the hell is going on in this thread. Deadlifts, as has been said before, use the WHOLE posterior chain. Yes, glutes and hamstrings are involved, and yes as they insert into the joints that are MOVING, they tend to be considered PRIME MOVERS.
And romanian deadlifts emphasize hamstrings MORE, as you are getting huge hip extension.
And will someone please explain how the hamstrings ONLY work in the eccentric portion? Like, what? They aren’t used on the way up at all, but they magically take over the lift on the way down? Do goodmornings not work the hamstrings as well?
This is unbelievable.
you understand that a GM is the same movement as a RDL with different bar placement…right?
[/quote]
Thanks for responding to the rest of the points raised. The more important ones.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i must be doing something wrong then.
because i get no glute or quad DOMS when i deadlift
but i get glute DOMS when i leg press
and while i do get DOMS in my hams from RDLing
i also get DOMS in my back, especially traps.
i guess your guys’ lower bodies start right below the chest[/quote]
?
DOMS? really?
This has nothing to do with DOMS. I got DOMS in my mid back when I first started benching, does that make the bench press a back exercise?
Muscles that contribute in an exercise may be stimulated to the point of soreness if they aren’t adapted to that exercise; it doesn’t make them prime movers.
Just as the bench is considered a chest/tri/delt exercise, the DL is a lower body movement, because those are the muscles that are doing most of the work. If you use them to stimulate growth or what not in your traps, mid back, grip etc, great, just don’t categorize the exercise as such.
[quote]stockzy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
just out of curiosity, what do you deadlift? im hoping the guy saying i shouldnt be allowed out of the play pen is at least stronger than me
170kg 3 weeks ago, 85kg bodyweight. That’s like asking another racecar driver what’s his fastest time when he doesn’t know how the wheels end up turning.
I don’t expect a high degree of technical knowledge on the internet but deadlifting not a leg exercise? That’s like saying the pull up is used primarily to train the grip?? Please??[/quote]
you have a 370x3
i have a 455x7
i deadlift nearly 100 pounds more than you for double the reps.
idk, maybe the guy who deadlifts on back day has a stronger deadlift for a reason?
and how the fuck do you lift a weight back up with your hamstrings? i didnt know muscles could change their functionality whenever convenient for internet posters.
ok… recap, this is definately not a good idea at least for me if you don’t have a day of rest between the barbell rows and deadlifts… my back is a little fucked up fight now because of it.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
stockzy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
just out of curiosity, what do you deadlift? im hoping the guy saying i shouldnt be allowed out of the play pen is at least stronger than me
170kg 3 weeks ago, 85kg bodyweight. That’s like asking another racecar driver what’s his fastest time when he doesn’t know how the wheels end up turning.
I don’t expect a high degree of technical knowledge on the internet but deadlifting not a leg exercise? That’s like saying the pull up is used primarily to train the grip?? Please??
you have a 370x3
i have a 455x7
i deadlift nearly 100 pounds more than you for double the reps.
idk, maybe the guy who deadlifts on back day has a stronger deadlift for a reason?
and how the fuck do you lift a weight back up with your hamstrings? i didnt know muscles could change their functionality whenever convenient for internet posters.[/quote]
Try a wide stance squat… guaranteed you use your hamstrings. Why do you think powerlifters want hamstrings that are strong as fuck…to stabilize??? No, they do it because your posterior chain is a hell of a lot more muscle then say your quads. And who fucking cares what you can deadlift if you have shitty form, one of the top deadlifters in our gym pulls 700 and when he came to us his form was atrocious…but his back was one strong mother. We’ve spent the past six months retooling his deadlift so he actually gets leg drive instead of performing a stiff legged deadlift. And the whole thing about back DOMS and benching. Every time after benching my back is sore as hell, it’s what happens when you stay tight. Does that mean my lats are a primary mover in the bench…no.
I think the same goes for you, Your back is sore from stabilizing the weight throughout the lift. The only movement in the back is lower back and shoulder blades when locking out. From the sounds of it, you should really have someone take a look at your form that actually knows what they’re looking at.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
stockzy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
just out of curiosity, what do you deadlift? im hoping the guy saying i shouldnt be allowed out of the play pen is at least stronger than me
170kg 3 weeks ago, 85kg bodyweight. That’s like asking another racecar driver what’s his fastest time when he doesn’t know how the wheels end up turning.
I don’t expect a high degree of technical knowledge on the internet but deadlifting not a leg exercise? That’s like saying the pull up is used primarily to train the grip?? Please??
you have a 370x3
i have a 455x7
i deadlift nearly 100 pounds more than you for double the reps.
idk, maybe the guy who deadlifts on back day has a stronger deadlift for a reason?
and how the fuck do you lift a weight back up with your hamstrings? i didnt know muscles could change their functionality whenever convenient for internet posters.[/quote]
LOL What about Andy Bolton? Maybe the guy who deadlifts on lower body days has a deadlift over twice that of yours for a reason? This ad hominem shit doesn’t change the fact that numerous statements you have made here are false.
There is no denying that deadlifts build up the back - they build up the entire backside of the body. You can put them on back day if you want. I never said you couldn’t (although you seem to think that I did). You asked since when was deadlift a lower body exercise, and then claimed it wasn’t - that’s when you got retarded.
P.S. What “functionality” of a muscle? That doesn’t even make sense in this context.
P.P.S. If you don’t recognize the importance of quads and HAMSTRINGS in the deadlift, as evidenced by that last bit, you should stop posting here and learn how to do it right.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
stockzy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
just out of curiosity, what do you deadlift? im hoping the guy saying i shouldnt be allowed out of the play pen is at least stronger than me
170kg 3 weeks ago, 85kg bodyweight. That’s like asking another racecar driver what’s his fastest time when he doesn’t know how the wheels end up turning.
I don’t expect a high degree of technical knowledge on the internet but deadlifting not a leg exercise? That’s like saying the pull up is used primarily to train the grip?? Please??
you have a 370x3
i have a 455x7
i deadlift nearly 100 pounds more than you for double the reps.
idk, maybe the guy who deadlifts on back day has a stronger deadlift for a reason?
and how the fuck do you lift a weight back up with your hamstrings? i didnt know muscles could change their functionality whenever convenient for internet posters.[/quote]
Your hamstrings (Well BF anyway) are your hip extensors. To lift the weight up in a deadlift (especially RDL) you use hip extension. Only muscles that cross the hip on the posterior side can extend the joint when they shorten. I’m sure that’s what people are trying to tell you when they say it’s your posterior chain (also glutes, etc.). It might be hard at first to visualize your hamstrings having that function as well as knee flexion.
That said, you’re back musculature is certain under extreme recruitment to keep posture, and I can see why many people would want to do deads on back day.
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
if you got DOMS in your back from benching you obviously started out as a very, very, very, weak individual.
your probably got calf soreness from checking the mail too.[/quote]
you know me so well.
Really though, no offense intended, but you need to go through the basic anatomy of the hip extensors/flexors. No one said DL’ing on back day is a bad idea, but you need to factor in the role of the posterior chain and the stress applied to them.
its how a muscle works…you know, you have muscle to actually do stuff.
does andy bolton train West Side? do you have any statements of andy bolton saying “i train deadlifts on a ‘lower’ day?”
please find me some if youre gonna use him in your references, i swear to god people not only dont know how muscles work, they dont know how to cite either. youre probably still in jr high
[quote]rundymc wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
if you got DOMS in your back from benching you obviously started out as a very, very, very, weak individual.
your probably got calf soreness from checking the mail too.
you know me so well.
Really though, no offense intended, but you need to go through the basic anatomy of the hip extensors/flexors. No one said DL’ing on back day is a bad idea, but you need to factor in the role of the posterior chain and the stress applied to them.
[/quote]
i know that ive never heard of anyone getting DOMS in their back from bench pressing…ever
Ok…
UAphenix explained it up top… you’re isometrically contracting your mid back to pull the shoulder blades together.
You don’t train with alot of absolute beginners do you?
[quote]rundymc wrote:
Ok…
UAphenix explained it up top… you’re isometrically contracting your mid back to pull the shoulder blades together.
You don’t train with alot of absolute beginners do you? :D[/quote]
i just said i never heard of anyone ever getting it. everyone was a beginner at one point. i wonder, do you get a lat pump when you scratch your back?
[quote]DaveyD wrote:
Live- I suggest you look at an anatomy chart at where the hamstrings insert. They can definitely function as hip extensors.[/quote]
i dont get why you guys say the hamstrings do so much, its nonsensical.
if i perform a rack pull, which again is the same motion as a RDL or Deadlift just with shortened ROM, im not using my hamstrings, im using my back. i mean, how the fuck do you use hamstrings to explode a weight upwards? i cant get past that, i cant get past the fact that my back gets sore from rack pulls, from deadlifts and from RDLs too. although i would say the severity may be in that order and the reason for that happening is just as i said, the hamstrings function more on the eccentric.
i dont know, i must have some kind of defect that makes my hamstrings not initialize when i lift because somehow when i rackpull my hamstrings are fine yet everyone else’s (according to this thread) get torched.
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.
[quote]rundymc wrote:
its been explained to you multiple times in the thread dude, by several posters. Most people’s erectors get sore from DL’ing heavy, it doesn’t change the fact the hams and glutes are the movers. Perhaps your back is not as well adapted to the load you use as the rest of your posterior chain.
You need to follow Dave’s advice and revamp your knowledge on anatomy/biomechanics.[/quote]
yeah…my back cant handle it, thats gotta be the answer. this is the first time ive ever heard anyone call a rackpull a hamstring exercise…even though theyre done for back thickness. in fact, you all claim because West Side does them on lower body day that its an lower body exercise, DC trains back for thickness. Dante and his colleagues must not know that their hamstrings are doing all the work and the whole time they have been wrong about what works for back thickness, how silly.
