I do a huge leg day on Tuesday (inc squats and a double drop Hack set) and then do deadlifts with my back day on Wednesday. For me it takes 2 days for the full DOMS to set in so I get to enjoy not being able to walk on Thursday (chest day)!
[quote]kakno wrote:
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
I did squats
all have 2 min rest between sets except last which has 4mins rest
10 x 130lbs
8 x 150lbs
7 x 176lbs
7 x 176lbs
3 x 220lbs
Not the best week as ill usually get 4-5 on last set
Follow on with some leg press machine and calf work
Then deads was
2min rest except last 2 sets 4 min rest
10 x 130lbs
9 x 150lbs
8 x 176lbs
7 x 198lbs
6 x 220lbs
4 x 240lbs
This day has only recently been split to its own day where I do lunges and abs + flexibility / stretching
Emphasizing quads might be a good idea, front squats and narrow stance
I have tried training through soreness, but it feels like I am pulling the muscle / about to pull it - only have it in the hamstring though, which are quite tight and its something I am working on to improve flexibility.
[/quote]
Are you male or female? (Not at all meant as an insult, but both seem possible here)
Looks like you’re going to or near failure before your heaviest set. I’d do something more like
2x10xbar
5x60kg
3x80kg
(possibly 1-3x90)
as many as possible x 100 kg (or more)
(optional: as many as possible with 80-90 kg, but this will increase recovery time)
And on deads: 10xbar
10x60kg
5x80kg
3x100kg
as many as possible x 110 kg or more
(optional: as many as possible with 80-100, but this will increase recovery time)
Try taking it a little easier while ramping up and then going all out on your top set. The way you’re doing it makes you sorer and limits the weight you can use.
Do the muscles of your upper body respond well to being worked once a week? You might want to increase the frequency.[/quote]
Ouch, Male, thanks for the swift kick in the nuts
I guess I do usually like to get a fair bit of volume over weight
I did push weight about a year ago and was getting a 1RM of 308lbs squat and 330lb deadlift without too much trouble
Upper body recovers quite fast - 3-4 days and I don’t know, never tried higher frequency (2 sessions upper for every 1 lower?)
[quote]MrDChizzel wrote:
I do a huge leg day on Tuesday (inc squats and a double drop Hack set) and then do deadlifts with my back day on Wednesday. For me it takes 2 days for the full DOMS to set in so I get to enjoy not being able to walk on Thursday (chest day)![/quote]
Yeh, DOMS is usually not the very next day for me either, 2 days is when I’m the sorest - back to back squat and dead? could be an option for me, never really considered it
Just make sure the deads are done well as searing back pain is the last thing you need on top of non functioning legs Thurs. Learned that one the hard way.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think of DOMS like I think about a nasty hangover. The best way to deal with a nasty hangover is a few drinks in the morning. Likewise, the best way to deal with DOMS is to go train. [/quote]
strongly agree.
dont be afraid of doms.
days rest in between bodyparts is sufficient.
its a mental thing imo.you feel sore so you think the muscle is still fatigued.after a couple of warm up sets you will normally feel less soreness and your new workout should not be compromised.
different for everyone i realise but a good ruke of thumb.
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
Ouch, Male, thanks for the swift kick in the nuts
I guess I do usually like to get a fair bit of volume over weight
I did push weight about a year ago and was getting a 1RM of 308lbs squat and 330lb deadlift without too much trouble
Upper body recovers quite fast - 3-4 days and I don’t know, never tried higher frequency (2 sessions upper for every 1 lower?)
[/quote]
Once again, not meant as an insult but I’d give different advice to a strong girl and a not so strong man.
Volume is great but if you take too long to recover from it it won’t help you reach your goals. The way I do things I worked up to 15 squats with 308 about 10 days ago and was good to go for 5 deads with 397 three days later and heavier squats three days after that. I grow twice as often as you. Maybe not twice as quickly, but probably faster.
You might work “upper body” as often as legs, but you work your hamstrings for twice as often as your pecs. Do you really want to do that?
[quote]kakno wrote:
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
Ouch, Male, thanks for the swift kick in the nuts
I guess I do usually like to get a fair bit of volume over weight
I did push weight about a year ago and was getting a 1RM of 308lbs squat and 330lb deadlift without too much trouble
Upper body recovers quite fast - 3-4 days and I don’t know, never tried higher frequency (2 sessions upper for every 1 lower?)
[/quote]
Once again, not meant as an insult but I’d give different advice to a strong girl and a not so strong man.
Volume is great but if you take too long to recover from it it won’t help you reach your goals. The way I do things I worked up to 15 squats with 308 about 10 days ago and was good to go for 5 deads with 397 three days later and heavier squats three days after that. I grow twice as often as you. Maybe not twice as quickly, but probably faster.
You might work “upper body” as often as legs, but you work your hamstrings for twice as often as your pecs. Do you really want to do that?[/quote]
I think I understand what you are saying
The issue is as you say it really, I would do a higher frequency on upper body if not for “waiting” for hamstrings to recover
So you think the issue could be high volume?
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
I think I understand what you are saying
The issue is as you say it really, I would do a higher frequency on upper body if not for “waiting” for hamstrings to recover
So you think the issue could be high volume?
[/quote]
You’d recover faster if you didn’t tire yourself out while ramping up and gave it all in your top set.
You’d be able to use heavier weights, which is pretty important at this stage IMO.
By recovering faster you’d be able to work your upper body often enough.
Win-win-win as Michael Scott would have said. At least try it.
[quote]alexus wrote:
do you foam roll? i’ve found i rarely get DOMS - instead i get a tension in my muscles that can be rolled away so i’m not suffering.
hammies are hard to get to… lacross ball might help. remember, the aim is to get the muscle to relax not to get it to cramp up in pain![/quote]
X2 on this, especially the guads and hamstring (I use a PVC pipe for the quads and tennis ball for hammies).
OP btw do u have an ID on the chick in ur avatar? She is sporting some nice guads
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think of DOMS like I think about a nasty hangover. The best way to deal with a nasty hangover is a few drinks in the morning. Likewise, the best way to deal with DOMS is to go train. [/quote]
Lol
Sucrose is apparently the only thing that speeds the removal of alcohol
Light training?[/quote]
No no. Just train as you normally would. I can’t count the number of times I’ve had DOMS that probably would’ve last another 3 or 4 days if I didn’t just go in and deadlift and get on with it already.
Oh yea, and foam roll every day.
I Deadlift on my Back day, a day after my Squatting on my Leg day.
Also, I’ve found, especially lately, that on days when my legs feel fresh, I never PR. I always hit my biggest numbers on days when I feel like shit, so soreness isn’t always a good indicator of the potential for a session.
But if you legitimately feel like you might injure yourself, that’s a different story. There’s a big difference between pushing through pain, and just being stupid trying to push through injury.
Have you pulled your Hamstring sufficiently before?
If so, you should know the difference between plain old soreness, and injury.
Push through soreness, move around and back off injuries.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think of DOMS like I think about a nasty hangover. The best way to deal with a nasty hangover is a few drinks in the morning. Likewise, the best way to deal with DOMS is to go train. [/quote]
I like being sore hahaha.
This is a true statement though, your sore the next day and hit the weights. Don’t train the same muscle of course. You will be less sore after training another muscle. Something about the blood and your body working as a whole to support the lift.
@OP: try walking more 48hrs after you train legs. Walk up some hills, walk the dog. Just go outside a walk a good distance.
How many sets do you do total for legs?
I see you have them listed but i didn’t see a total amount of reps and sets.
"Also, I’ve found, especially lately, that on days when my legs feel fresh, I never PR. I always hit my biggest numbers on days when I feel like shit, so soreness isn’t always a good indicator of the potential for a session. "
That! Same thing here. Whenever I feel shit, dizzy, hardly able to walk in a straight line I pull out PRs. When I’m amped and feel good: strength is not so…
I’ve found that in a brain-foggy, fatigued state your strength can still skyrocket, as well as endurance. But you can say goodbye to explosiveness.
For legs, the best thingy for an average joe to reduce soreness: some light cycling and perhaps some walking. I like the cycle better though. That why I like to clean carpet for instance after heavy shoulder or lat work. :oP
[quote]Mike T. wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I think of DOMS like I think about a nasty hangover. The best way to deal with a nasty hangover is a few drinks in the morning. Likewise, the best way to deal with DOMS is to go train. [/quote]
I like being sore hahaha.
This is a true statement though, your sore the next day and hit the weights. Don’t train the same muscle of course. You will be less sore after training another muscle. Something about the blood and your body working as a whole to support the lift.
@OP: try walking more 48hrs after you train legs. Walk up some hills, walk the dog. Just go outside a walk a good distance.
How many sets do you do total for legs?
I see you have them listed but i didn’t see a total amount of reps and sets.[/quote]
This is back on page 1
I did squats
all have 2 min rest between sets except last which has 4mins rest
10 x 130lbs
8 x 150lbs
7 x 176lbs
7 x 176lbs
3 x 220lbs
Not the best week as ill usually get 4-5 on last set
Follow on with some leg press machine and calf work
Then deads was
2min rest except last 2 sets 4 min rest
10 x 130lbs
9 x 150lbs
8 x 176lbs
7 x 198lbs
6 x 220lbs
4 x 240lbs
I usually do a bit of walking daily as a matter of course, 1km morning and 1km afternoon to and from work
You are talking more like 3-4km in a single session though im sure
DOMS doesn’t always mean your muscles aren’t ready to be hit again yet, working through DOMS isn’t going to negatively impact your gains either. Just do some warm up sets and you’ll notice the DOMS is almost 100% gone.
Here let me quote and give you sites.
“You see, it?s not uncommon for delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) to last four or even five days after the completion of an intense weight training session; however, many studies have concluded that complete metabolic recovery (what you care about) occurs within 48 hours of exercise.”
Nosaka K, Clarkson P.M. Muscle damage following repeated bouts of high force eccentric exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc., 27(9):1263-1269,1995.
Smith LL., Fuylmer MG., Holbert D., McCammon MR., Houmard JA., Frazer DD., Nsien E., Isreal RG. The impact of repeated bout of eccentric exercise on muscular strength, muscle soreness and creatine kinase. Br J Sp Med 28(4):267-271, 1994.
Chen, TC and S.S. Hsieh. The effects of a seven-day repeated eccentric training on recovery from muscle damage. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp. S71, 1999.
Nosaka K and M Newton. Repeated eccentric exercise bouts do not exacerbate muscle damage and repair. J Strength Cond Res. 2002 Feb;16(1):117-22.
Conclusion: even if complete metabolic recovery has not yet occurred, the muscle can be trained again, all you need to do is stretch, and do some warm up sets and maybe even jog for 5 minutes if you must.
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
[quote]kakno wrote:
[quote]Volgarixon wrote:
I did squats
all have 2 min rest between sets except last which has 4mins rest
10 x 130lbs
8 x 150lbs
7 x 176lbs
7 x 176lbs
3 x 220lbs
Not the best week as ill usually get 4-5 on last set
Follow on with some leg press machine and calf work
Then deads was
2min rest except last 2 sets 4 min rest
10 x 130lbs
9 x 150lbs
8 x 176lbs
7 x 198lbs
6 x 220lbs
4 x 240lbs
This day has only recently been split to its own day where I do lunges and abs + flexibility / stretching
Emphasizing quads might be a good idea, front squats and narrow stance
I have tried training through soreness, but it feels like I am pulling the muscle / about to pull it - only have it in the hamstring though, which are quite tight and its something I am working on to improve flexibility.
[/quote]
Are you male or female? (Not at all meant as an insult, but both seem possible here)
Looks like you’re going to or near failure before your heaviest set. I’d do something more like
2x10xbar
5x60kg
3x80kg
(possibly 1-3x90)
as many as possible x 100 kg (or more)
(optional: as many as possible with 80-90 kg, but this will increase recovery time)
And on deads: 10xbar
10x60kg
5x80kg
3x100kg
as many as possible x 110 kg or more
(optional: as many as possible with 80-100, but this will increase recovery time)
Try taking it a little easier while ramping up and then going all out on your top set. The way you’re doing it makes you sorer and limits the weight you can use.
Do the muscles of your upper body respond well to being worked once a week? You might want to increase the frequency.[/quote]
Ouch, Male, thanks for the swift kick in the nuts
I guess I do usually like to get a fair bit of volume over weight
I did push weight about a year ago and was getting a 1RM of 308lbs squat and 330lb deadlift without too much trouble
Upper body recovers quite fast - 3-4 days and I don’t know, never tried higher frequency (2 sessions upper for every 1 lower?)
[/quote]
So did as suggested here, dropped the sets and reps down and increased weight
Deadlift was
5@60kg (132lbs)
5@80kg (176lbs)
5@100kg (220lbs)
5@120kg (264lbs)
3@130kg (286lbs) grip failed a bit, I don’t use straps or chalk
Squats were today
5@60kg (132lbs)
5@80kg (176lbs)
5@100kg (220lbs)
5@100kg (220lbs)
2@120kg (264lbs)
So seems I might stick with this approach, deadlifting felt good on the legs, not a lot of soreness at all
Did do stretching and upped the BCAA as well, especially before bed
Cheers for the advice all!
Hi Volgarixon, not sure whether you’ve altered the split but I agree with kakno in that you can increase the frequency of upper body while training the lower a little less (so that the lower body doesn’t hold the upper body back).
It seems this issue is nothing to do with DOMS/recovery alone (otherwise it would effect other muscles too). You CAN lower the time you have DOMS by eating more (recovering faster), but it’s not going to fix the problem of legs/hams taking longer to recover than upper body.
As for the DOMS others have commented on; I’ve experienced the cramping/muscle “seizure” feeling of trying to train a properly un-recovered muscle. There’s 2 degrees of soreness; it’s fine if it’s just residual lactic acid or whatever, but when the pain is due to really not being recovered, that’s different.
There’s a few options really. My “favourite” would be to put DL/Squats on same day, and do a 3 way split:
1: Chest/Triceps/Shoulders
2: Lower body (Squat/DL/Leg press etc)
3: Back/Biceps
Rotate/cycle through the split (days won’t be set bodyparts each week). Example:
Mon: –
Tue: 1
Wed: 2
Thu: –
Fri: 3
Sat: 1
Sun: –
If you regularly only make it to the gym 3x/week, I’d condense the split into a 2-way (e.g. upper/lower split). If doing the upper/lower split, you’d only DL every other lower body day (you don’t want to do big hip/knee dominant movements more than 2x/week preferably). Also, most put shoulders on lower body day for the sake of getting the upper body workouts done within a decent time-frame.
Another option to try and keep in mind is your own biomechanics (which obviously favours/hits your hamstrings more when doing lower body lifts). The lower you go on the squats/DL’s, the more hamstring activation you get (could do parallel/slightly above for squats, and/or do partial deadlifts like rackpulls…ideal option if doing squats/DL’s in same workout). Lunges hits hamstrings really well (which may surprise many). I’m unfamiliar with leg press, so can’t comment on that one.
Lastly, you could try keeping a few reps in the tank on your lower body movements (except maybe leg press). On this method you stop the set when the weight slows down a lot (say 2-3 reps away from failure). This way, you can train lower body twice a week no problem (recovery is faster). So instead of working up to one max working set (like ramping/HIT), you’d do 2-3 warmup sets (depending on how heavy the exercise is), pick one top weight then do 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps and only reach near failure on the last set (i.e. you accumulate fatigue). Every time you master 6 reps on the first set, you add 5lbs next time. But the method that Kakno mentioned is a great way of minimising fatigue/speeding up recovery, so you may only want to try this method when you get more advanced/reach a sticking point.
That’s a great improvement! Big weights are fun
Still don’t get why you do 2 sets of 5x100 kg before going up to 120, but whatever works…
And use chalk. I bought a bag for like 13 bucks in 2009 and even though I use it five out of six days I haven’t even used half of it. If it’s forbidden in your gym, keep the bag in your gym bag and reach in like you’re looking for something, then clean up in a few seconds when you’re done. You’ll get stronger and bigger.
Volgarixon, take this for whatever it’s worth. I’ve always loved deadlifting but have had numerous issues arise from trying to cram in squats and deadlifts. Recently I had an epiphany “a-ha” moment, and realized that for me personally, it was going to need to be one or the other. I chose squats because they are more “economic” in terms of distribution of work towards targeted muscles. I deadlifted on back day but was using far more muscles than that to do the movement.
Anyway, I started noticing (even with a 5/3/1 template) eventually I started feeling run down all the time and would have to take days off in a ROW just to get back to feeling normal. I’ve been training years and I’ve only felt that way when I incorporate squats + deadlifts in the same “regimen.”
Have you ever considered a higher rack pull on back day? This will help take your legs out of the equation as well as get stronger on your sticking points.
Ultimately, you’re the only who can really know how you feel but if you’re not seeing good results with squatting + DL’ing together (and it doesn’t look like you are, no offense meant whatsoever,) don’t be afraid to do something else. Squats and DL’s are excellent, yes, no one is denying that. People are built differently than each other, though. I know personally I can’t recover for shit.
Just something to think about.