Deadlift vs. Squat

[quote]milk wrote:
LMFAO " ALOT of guys Pull 350-400 the first time they try" gtfo

/thread[/quote]

I just started pulling and did 325 for a few reps without too much trouble. I’m only 155lbs. Although my grip seems to be the biggest problem, that and I can’t seem to keep my back straight and hips low enough.

My back keeps rounding, and of course my back hurts now… go figure. At least I know I have some serious form work ahead of me.

As far as flexibility, with legs straight I can touch my palms to the ground with shoes on (thanks martial arts.) But if anything, I think this is only hindering me as I begin to straighten out my legs way too early, and then use my back(rounded) to finish the rep.

Lots of work to go, but just calling bullshit on what milk wrote. I’m pretty small at 155lbs and I am sure there are a lot of guys that could pull just as much as me and more for their first time.

[quote]Theta1591 wrote:
milk wrote:
LMFAO " ALOT of guys Pull 350-400 the first time they try" gtfo

/thread

I just started pulling and did 325 for a few reps without too much trouble. I’m only 155lbs. Although my grip seems to be the biggest problem, that and I can’t seem to keep my back straight and hips low enough.

My back keeps rounding, and of course my back hurts now… go figure. At least I know I have some serious form work ahead of me.
[/quote]

I think milk was saying with good form, which doesn’t sound like what you accomplished. But I don’t want to speak for him either.

It was my post that got quoted in the first place from another thread. Not sure why the person who did that couldn’t just make the same point themselves, but that’s neither here nor there.

I was a two sport athlete in college and have competed in powerlifting over the past two years. I’ve been in many weight rooms over the past seven years or so, and I’m just telling you what I’ve seen.

Personally, the first time I ever attempted a deadlift there was a bar loaded to 315 just sitting on the ground and I decided to see if I could lift it…I didn’t even know what a deadlift was. I could do it for a few reps…I was around 160-165. I do not possess unusual levels of natural strength, not by any means.

I have seen MANY people who could do the same or more the very first time they attempted the exercise. People who’ve been training for a year or more and can’t do this don’t want to hear it, but it’s absolutely the case.

A ton of muscle mass doesn’t help as much with a pull as it does with most lifts. A strong grip and an efficient nervous system do, and some people just have those…apparently more than ‘milk’ realizes. Muscle mass and stability take time to develop. Wiry strength you’re born with.

Further, the deadlift is generally less trainable than the other powerlifts and most strength exercises generally, so once your initial progress is made, it can be a grind to keep getting stronger. Whereas with your squat and bench, as long as you’re willing to eat big and work, you can keep nudging things along.

I know it makes some folks feel better to ‘call bullshit’ at any claim anyone makes that makes them feel inadequate…but I get the sense I’m not the only one who thinks it’s fairly commonplace for an untrained person to be able to pull 350-400 for at least a single, and sometimes more, the first time they ever try.

If that pisses you off, instead of calling me a moron, how about you pour some of that bitterness into your training?

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
milk wrote:
LMFAO " ALOT of guys Pull 350-400 the first time they try" gtfo

/thread

I have a friend who his first time lifting he pulled 335.

He’s a buck fourty and 15.

just sayin.[/quote]

I have a friend who pulled 310 at 132 the first time he deadlifted at my house, pretty impressive. Too bad this guy never really started training…

It’s probably not the norm though, but many guys can get over 300 first try, over 350? probably not many at all. I was weak as fuck when I started(definitely couldn’t pull 300 lol), still got to 500 fine though!

[quote]Laughing Man wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
milk wrote:
LMFAO " ALOT of guys Pull 350-400 the first time they try" gtfo

/thread

I have a friend who his first time lifting he pulled 335.

He’s a buck fourty and 15.

just sayin.

I have a friend who pulled 310 at 132 the first time he deadlifted at my house, pretty impressive. Too bad this guy never really started training…

It’s probably not the norm though, but many guys can get over 300 first try, over 350? probably not many at all. I was weak as fuck when I started(definitely couldn’t pull 300 lol), still got to 500 fine though!

[/quote]

I agree. I doubt he could do that now. He got a girl pregnant and now works at mcdonalds instead of playing hockey.

don’t knock anyone up at 15. It will fuck up your life.

[quote]pinkponyz wrote:
Got any good indicators/tests of back flexibility?

I believe my back strength at least is good enough for the weight I’m currently pulling, but flexibility… eh.[/quote]

Have you ever done overhead squats? If you work on them at the start of your sessions until your able to go ass to ground comfortably (same stance as your deadlift)that should sort out any flexibility issues you have for the deadlift. Worked very well for me.

Have you tried snatch grip deadlifts? I’ve found them very effective for forcing you to drop your ass and utilise leg drive and glute strength.

Finally, a friend of mine (triple bw deadlifter if I’m calculating correctly) told me the other day that he often does some light front squats as part of his warm up before deadlifting. I’ve done this a few times myself and it seems to work well in cueing the lifter to drive through their heels and keep their back straight. Just keep the weight moderate if you try this before deadlifting as the goal isnt to fatigue yourself, just to get things firing properly.

Thanks for the tips, I’ll try incorporating them into my training. With some added lower weight work to get my form better, I might be able to make some more progress in the deadlifts safely :slight_smile:

[quote]pinkponyz wrote:
Thanks for the tips, I’ll try incorporating them into my training. With some added lower weight work to get my form better, I might be able to make some more progress in the deadlifts safely :)[/quote]

No problem. Good luck!

I pulled the first time 400(kg) at 4 at 50 lbs. I believe all your need is an efficient CNS.

[quote]milk wrote:

if you also believe “Alot of guys pull 350-400 the first time” then you are a moron as well, this site is exactly like bb.com, got a bunch of morons living in imagination land, you realise you are talking about less then 1% of people right? not “alot” of guys if i have to quote it again. [/quote]

even if only 1 in 1000 guys could potentially do it then that still amounts to “a lot of guys”. You can pretty much walk into any gym and expect to find at least a few guys who started off at that level and that’s a conservative estimate. A few guys at every gym adds up to a shitload of guys in total.

It’s not like everyone starts off weak before they start training with weights. There are plenty of other ways people develop strength (years of hard work or physical sports for example) and some people are just like that naturally too. It’s just that many people who get involved in bodybuilding start off as skinny unathletic kids who take up weights as a way of building self-esteem. So in those circles it’s not so common to see so many guys who start off strong.

I’ve heard of newbies progressing fast, hell I am one, but I really had no idea it was common for such high lifts when starting out, I started with 80kg for 5. Probarly a bit low, could have gone up to a pathethic 90 I guess, But anyway, five months later I’m pulling 140 for five. But starting out at 140-180kg, that is just awesome.

Its all about how your muscles are formed I think…meaning from birth. I’m not naturally a strong guy. I’ve been 5’6 since 8th grade. My first DL attempt I could barely get 2 plates. Now I pull nearly 400 after training it for years. One of my best friends on the other hand is naturally strong at my height. He’s 5’6 and has state records in the police category pulling 3 times his weight. we eat about the same and train just as hard…he just naturally has me beat hands down.

[quote]CPerfringens wrote:
I pulled the first time 400(kg) at 4 at 50 lbs. I believe all your need is an efficient CNS.

[/quote]

It’s possible I’m reading this wrong. On your first time deadlifting, you deadlifted 400kg at a bodyweight of 450 lbs?

[quote]milk wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
milk wrote:
LMFAO " ALOT of guys Pull 350-400 the first time they try" gtfo

/thread

I believe it, I’ve seen guys pull 300-400 off the floor who either never train or barely ever trained (technique may be horrible). Funny thing I’ve seen more guys who train have a more difficult time pulling it then guys who don’t, I really think it’s a mental barrier telling them to be cautious.

if you also believe “Alot of guys pull 350-400 the first time” then you are a moron as well, this site is exactly like bb.com, got a bunch of morons living in imagination land, you realise you are talking about less then 1% of people right? not “alot” of guys if i have to quote it again.

Think of how many people you see outside and at your gym, that could/have pulled 350+ their first time. No one is arguing its impossible obviously. But read his quote. Stop talking absolute bullcrap and get some realism.[/quote]

You are very opinionated and wrong. A lot of people DO pull 350+ their first time. I pulled 385 lbs my first time at 150 lbs. My friend pulled 365 his first time at 190 lbs and 6’3". I have seen people who have pulled upwards of 405 lbs on their first try. Compared to the number of people who bench 350 to 400 on their first try (practically zero), there are really “a lot” who pull these kinds of numbers when they start out.

[quote]Otep wrote:
CPerfringens wrote:
I pulled the first time 400(kg) at 4 at 50 lbs. I believe all your need is an efficient CNS.

It’s possible I’m reading this wrong. On your first time deadlifting, you deadlifted 400kg at a bodyweight of 450 lbs?[/quote]

No, he pulled 400kg at 4 years-old at a bodyweight of 50lbs, which I’ve seen many times…

[quote]OBoile wrote:
LSUPOWERDC wrote:
people need to understand that depending on how a person is built, technique, equipment used, individual weaknesses…etc, these can be very different lifts

if you want help with them, please post vids or links to vids so we may comment on form or other pertinent information

i know many lifters who have great squats and shitty pulls, and vice versa

many posters on here seem to have amazing deadlifts and crap squats…probably because the form on squat is shit, or the deadlift is hitched and they are using lifting straps or some other external variable is affecting them

not passing judgment, but from the viewpoint of someone who coaches and wants to help as many lifters as i can, please start posting vids or links so that those like me on here can help you

Thank you

The deadlift will almost always be higher than the squat if the lifter is going to proper depth and not using a squat suit.
[/quote]

the “almost” part is what renders this generalization useless for those of us like myself and another member of my gym who can both squat well over what we can deadlift.

[quote]shoo wrote:
I’ve heard of newbies progressing fast, hell I am one, but I really had no idea it was common for such high lifts when starting out, I started with 80kg for 5. Probarly a bit low, could have gone up to a pathethic 90 I guess, But anyway, five months later I’m pulling 140 for five. But starting out at 140-180kg, that is just awesome.[/quote]

yeah, it really isn’t common at all

I’m not calling bullshit on anyone or saying most people are liars, but sometimes it seems like everyone who learns how to lift and start picking up some weight in the gym says they can pull 400 pounds.

I think a major thing to factor in is that there are already over 1k+ views in this thread, and every strength sports regular or guy who feels like flexing his muscles is going to post a story about how much they pulled or how much some guy they knows pulled… etc. There are a lot of above average strength people here even in the context of the athletically inclined, and they know a lot more people like themselves.

The average person starting out in the weight room would be absolutely crushed by 300+ pounds without previous experience, and that’s if they could even hold it.

That doesn’t mean that people don’t walk in and pull a shitload, or that there aren’t tons of people who have insane natural strength- just that you might want to use some perspective when reading these forums and take peoples experiences with a grain of salt.

My point is, I wouldn’t read too much into it. It doesn’t matter anyway. Just do your best lifting and keep pushing yourself. You can’t get caught up in what other people are lifting. Hell, you’ve already made really good progress. Unless you are at a meet, the only person’s lifts to worry about are your own.

got a little long winded there!

-Jeff

Well I have to say after reading all the comments on this subject I have to chuckle just a little. I have been training for 5 years now and have yet to see anyone and I mean anyone deadlift whatsoever no matter how much weight. Lots of benching, curling and tricep pushdowns though.

I also have to say I have yet to see anyone seriously train the squat or deads especially with all the chicken legs I see walking around. I am not saying there are not some strong dudes out there but I know of no one who seriously trains especially the squat and the D/L. Most guys are not asking what you pull just what you push!

[quote]

I agree. I doubt he could do that now. He got a girl pregnant and now works at mcdonalds instead of playing hockey.

don’t knock anyone up at 15. It will fuck up your life.[/quote]

Nice

[quote]Mrkent69 wrote:
Well I have to say after reading all the comments on this subject I have to chuckle just a little. I have been training for 5 years now and have yet to see anyone and I mean anyone deadlift whatsoever no matter how much weight. Lots of benching, curling and tricep pushdowns though. I also have to say I have yet to see anyone seriously train the squat or deads especially with all the chicken legs I see walking around. I am not saying there are not some strong dudes out there but I know of no one who seriously trains especially the squat and the D/L. Most guys are not asking what you pull just what you push! [/quote]

I would hate to train at your gym