Deadlift Importance to Oly Lifters?

Training Powerlifting
41

I think the weight used in the pulls should be dictated by what it is that you want to develop using them. If you want to develop speed (explosive power for the second pull) then you use weights less than 100% of your max snatch/clean. On the other hand if your aim is to increase limit strength (ability to handle big weights) then you should use weights like 100-120% of max.

I don’t think that using weights like 150% or 200% like someone said will give you any transfer to the actual movement because the technique is too different and rom is very limited (as you won’t be able to snatch pull 150% of your max snatch to chest height or whatever is your proper height in the actual snatch). Also the speed will not be there and probably the proper “rhytm” (or coordination) neither.

As for the deadlift. I think it should be considered more of a GPP exercise not being that specific unless you have problems with the first pull (very few lifters probably have). And also the first pull really technique depends on the lifter (although there are certain things all agree on). There are also big variations among top lifters on executing the first pull (back angle, hip positioning, speed, etc.). Drechsler goes into details about these in weightlifting encyclopedia (must to get for anybody interested in weightlifting and one of the best strength training books ever written IMO).

42

what was he doing hanging with the weights around his waist was he trying to do pullups? also does anyone know what his vertical is?

43

[quote]dfreezy wrote:
Since form generally starts to break down at >90%[/quote]

You’re making a lot of assumptions there. You’re assuming that:

  1. Technique breaks down at 90% for all lifters, whatever their experience and strength levels.
  2. Technique breaks down at the same point in the lift for all lifters.
  3. Technique breakdown is always because the weight is too heavy for the lifter’s muscles to maintain the correct positions. Technique breakdowns are as much about mental limits as they are physical, if not more so for non-advanced lifters.
  4. Pulling technique and snatch/clean technique are the same, which they are not. The role of the traps in the pull is the complete opposite of the role of the traps in the actual lift.
44

From personal experience, I can say that adding more cleans is more productive than adding deadlifts. However, once stagnation in cleans occur, getting stronger in the deadlift usually helps you get past that plateau. Of course, I had to supplement those deadlifts with heavy shrugs.

Then again, I train both weightlifting and powerlifting simultaneously.

45

[quote]ninearms wrote:
You’re making a lot of assumptions there. You’re assuming that:
[/quote]

LOL I’m not quite sure where you came up with all those assumptions. I used the word ‘generally’ to make a statement that holds true for most lifters in most circumstances- of course it won’t be the same case for very single person.

Not everyone does pulls nor does everyone perform pulls the same way. My point was there is a simple rationale for doing sub-max pulls. Its the same reason why its not efficient to train at your 1RM or 100% every time you clean or snatch. Pulls above 100% definitely have their place in strength cycles, but pulls at <90% have a purpose too.

I guess we have different goals in our training (I train to compete). The purpose I perform pulls (usually less than 100%) is to work on form & speed for the respective lift.

I also don’t do high pulls so pulling technique and muscle usage is very similar to the full lift. Actually the only difference between my pulls and my full lifts is I’m not dropping under the weight to catch it.

46

[quote]dfreezy wrote:
ninearms wrote:
You’re making a lot of assumptions there. You’re assuming that:

LOL I’m not quite sure where you came up with all those assumptions. I used the word ‘generally’ to make a statement that holds true for most lifters in most circumstances- of course it won’t be the same case for very single person.

Not everyone does pulls nor does everyone perform pulls the same way. My point was there is a simple rationale for doing sub-max pulls. Its the same reason why its not efficient to train at your 1RM or 100% every time you clean or snatch. Pulls above 100% definitely have their place in strength cycles, but pulls at <90% have a purpose too.

I guess we have different goals in our training (I train to compete). The purpose I perform pulls (usually less than 100%) is to work on form & speed for the respective lift.

I also don’t do high pulls so pulling technique and muscle usage is very similar to the full lift. Actually the only difference between my pulls and my full lifts is I’m not dropping under the weight to catch it.[/quote]

The main function of clean and snatch pulls are to overload the first pull of the lift. I think ninearms meant that the pulls always must be used with a weight higher than the normal clean and snatch kilograms used in training.

47

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
back211 wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
romanaz wrote:

the thing with the deadlift is that, its a slow lift, and it trains the muscles to move slowly. Can’t be fast if you lift slow.

You might want to go back and think about that one again.

Thats true and that lies true for all sports, the way you practice the way you perform, and also if you lift at a faster, you’ll lift at a faster speed and if you lift slow, you’ll lift at a slower speed even if it load is light. It due to CNS firing. You got to train your body to do what you want with time.

First of all, since when is the DL a slow lift. Do you honestly think that all of those guys pulling huge amounts of weight whose lifts take 6-15 seconds do complete arent attempting to accelerate the bar as fast as possible. The intent to accelerate is the important part.

If your line of thinking held true, then maximal effort squatting would not be beneficial to football players or other athletes…in fact, the only thing that would be beneficial to them would be playing football.
[/quote]

max effort squatting is usefull for football players or other atheltes in the prep phase, and then when they are nearing the competitive season, you need work more towards speed and rate of force development. Football isn’t a strength sport, its about being faster, more explosive then the other guy and being a better game player.

48

anyone care to explain in greater detail the difference between clean/snatch pulls, high pulls, and a clean/snatch grip deadlift?

I think I understand but I want to be sure. I do snatch grip deadlifts occasionally, and snatch and clean high pulls, but not clean or snatch “pulls” as shown in the Polish lifting team video.

49

I am also interested in how some of the lifters push their knees far out during the first pull starting with a narrow foot position and toes pointed out, so that they don’t have to reextend the knees as much during the 2nd pull.I’ve seen Rybakou do the same thing. This foot position is very similar to that of my full squat, and when I start my full lifts in a squatted position I pull that way, but I can also pull with the toes straight ahead and a narrower or wider stance and lift the same amount of weight with any of these styles-although I am inexperienced and new to weightlifting.

However my knees always get pushed out to the side before the second pull unless I start with the toes straight forward in which case I can’t start in a squat like I prefer. Any thoughts on this?

this has been a very good thread by the way

50

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
anyone care to explain in greater detail the difference between clean/snatch pulls, high pulls, and a clean/snatch grip deadlift?
[/quote]

You could lookup from google video the weightlifting encyclopedia video (by Arthur Drechsler). It is 180 minutes long and you’ll find lots of info from that video (I suggest buying the book as well).

To answer your question partly I’ll just say that the topic about technique for pulls is too large to go into details without actually demonstrating the lifts. There are so many variations of pulls (and in the form) being used by different lifters.

For example: some lifters (I’ve seen at least some chinese do this) tend to go down on the bar after the pull (as in the catching phase of the classic lifts) while others keep their arms totally locked and do not even let the bar rise (higher than the straight arms allow) after the second pull. Obviously there are reasons for all these variations and many others but the topic is too broad to go into details.

51

x2 for good thread, very interesting read.
Some people see the deadlift as a strength version of the clean and the military press as the strength version of the jerk

In my training I worked these two in my strength phase, to prepare a solid base of strength for the clean and jerk in my power phase, however I think everyone agrees they are very different types of lifts, and require so much technique work.

I believe however, squats have much more specific carry over to olympic lifting, but deads should have a place in NEARLY all strength routines, as a staple to the routine. Not all routines though.

TTT great thread.

52

[quote]romanaz wrote:

max effort squatting is usefull for football players or other atheltes in the prep phase, and then when they are nearing the competitive season, you need work more towards speed and rate of force development. Football isn’t a strength sport, its about being faster, more explosive then the other guy and being a better game player.
[/quote]

Have you ever played football or are you just saying that? I have a feeling that youre just saying that. Being explosive isnt everything, it doesnt matter how quickly you can apply the force if you arent strong enough to move the other player in the direction opposite of what he is traveling.

By the way, I am referring to American football, not futbol…if there is a disconnect about what sport we are talking about.

As for when maximal effort squatting is useful for football players is highly dependent on the position and the layout of the training program. My school’s conditioning program uses a conjugate layout and players will use both maximal and dynamic efforts within the same week.

Of course, having a strong posterior chain isnt important for OLY lifters, its all about speed and technique, right?

But that would, according to your logic, mean that oly lifting is not a strength sport.

Regardless of what you think of football, your assertion that heavy deadlifts somehow make you slow is off base. Lets look at the application here, people here are talking about doing deadlifts to train the first pull and get stronger from the floor and doing them at anywhere from 90-150% of their 1rm for the respective o-lift. If you cant deadlift 90-150% of your best clean in a fast manner, then you are a slow motherfucker to begin with. For example, my best power clean is 185 and my best deadlift is 405…which would mean if I were doing deadlifts to train my clean at 150% of my 1rm clean, I would be using 278 lbs, or 70% of my 1rm deadlift. Not exactly a grinder of a lift. I have a feeling that you are going to come back at me about how the deadlift is “just a generally slow lift, regardless of weight”, but I dont think that anyone here is saying deadlift instead of olifting in order to increase your olifts, merely that they are a valuable tool as an assistance exercise.

Of course, according to your logic from earlier, anything which does not mimic the actual sporting action, is of no value.

53

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
anyone care to explain in greater detail the difference between clean/snatch pulls, high pulls, and a clean/snatch grip deadlift?

I think I understand but I want to be sure. I do snatch grip deadlifts occasionally, and snatch and clean high pulls, but not clean or snatch “pulls” as shown in the Polish lifting team video.

[/quote]

a clean/snatch style deadlift is meant to be a slower and emphasize position. A pull or high pull is used to mimic the pull in the full lift with heavier weight and thus it is faster then a clean/snatch style deadlift.

and to add some more confusion, my coach calls those Dead pull clean or dead pull snatch.

54

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
romanaz wrote:

max effort squatting is usefull for football players or other atheltes in the prep phase, and then when they are nearing the competitive season, you need work more towards speed and rate of force development. Football isn’t a strength sport, its about being faster, more explosive then the other guy and being a better game player.

Have you ever played football or are you just saying that? I have a feeling that youre just saying that. Being explosive isnt everything, it doesnt matter how quickly you can apply the force if you arent strong enough to move the other player in the direction opposite of what he is traveling.

By the way, I am referring to American football, not futbol…if there is a disconnect about what sport we are talking about.

As for when maximal effort squatting is useful for football players is highly dependent on the position and the layout of the training program. My school’s conditioning program uses a conjugate layout and players will use both maximal and dynamic efforts within the same week.

Of course, having a strong posterior chain isnt important for OLY lifters, its all about speed and technique, right?

But that would, according to your logic, mean that oly lifting is not a strength sport.

Regardless of what you think of football, your assertion that heavy deadlifts somehow make you slow is off base. Lets look at the application here, people here are talking about doing deadlifts to train the first pull and get stronger from the floor and doing them at anywhere from 90-150% of their 1rm for the respective o-lift. If you cant deadlift 90-150% of your best clean in a fast manner, then you are a slow motherfucker to begin with. For example, my best power clean is 185 and my best deadlift is 405…which would mean if I were doing deadlifts to train my clean at 150% of my 1rm clean, I would be using 278 lbs, or 70% of my 1rm deadlift. Not exactly a grinder of a lift. I have a feeling that you are going to come back at me about how the deadlift is “just a generally slow lift, regardless of weight”, but I dont think that anyone here is saying deadlift instead of olifting in order to increase your olifts, merely that they are a valuable tool as an assistance exercise.

Of course, according to your logic from earlier, anything which does not mimic the actual sporting action, is of no value.[/quote]

i think we are both on different pages here, and some mis-interpretation here or mis-communication on my part. The russians have an assistance lift for helping the first pull… called Clean or Snatch lift-off.

I’m not saying a strong post. chain is not important to OLY lift, but you need a strong AND explosive post. chain. When I talk about deadlifts, I generally mean an all out 1RM grinder of a lift.

and for the record, the S&C coach at my school was talking about this to some of the football players yesterday about how dumb it was that the Football coach wanted the guys to do a max effort squat before the season started next fall. The guys at my school do a conjugate split, but with more focus on powercleans, squats and RDL’s as assistance.

55

[quote]romanaz wrote:

i think we are both on different pages here, and some mis-interpretation here or mis-communication on my part. The russians have an assistance lift for helping the first pull… called Clean or Snatch lift-off.

I’m not saying a strong post. chain is not important to OLY lift, but you need a strong AND explosive post. chain. When I talk about deadlifts, I generally mean an all out 1RM grinder of a lift.

and for the record, the S&C coach at my school was talking about this to some of the football players yesterday about how dumb it was that the Football coach wanted the guys to do a max effort squat before the season started next fall. The guys at my school do a conjugate split, but with more focus on powercleans, squats and RDL’s as assistance.[/quote]

Agreed. I dont think pulling (deadlifting) from the floor at near maximal weights is going to do a great deal for an olympic lifter simply because of the fact that the amount of energy expended doing such would detract from more important aspects of training. From the discussion earlier, it seemed as if you were saying that deadlifting in general would make a lifter slow, regardless of how the lift was used in training.

56

This is retarded, of course it helps every time and OLY lifter picks the bar off the floor that is a deadlift!

They can perform heavy pulls from the floor, heavier than they can clean and snatch its still deadlifting it past your knees.

Do traditional deadlifts help? Maybe they have carry over but whats the point?

57

rippetoe knows his stuff, no doubt. But i think he is more of a PL than OL.

Some advanced OLs may deadlift, but they have surely reached technique proficiency. Less advanced OLs must watch out for technique issues as the bar path is different for the DL and Clean/Snatch. Mainly, the shoulders are in front of the bar during the OLs and behind the bar for a DL.