Deadlift Importance to Oly Lifters?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

A few points:

  1. They are not essential to improve the snatcn and C&J. How often did the Bulgarian’s deadlift under The Butcher? They didn’t. You can’t argue with the results, however. How would deadlifting have helped Chakarov? The guy pulls 220kg in an arc around his knees and catches it bolt upright like it’s 60kg.

  2. Plenty of elite lifters DO deadlift. The Chinese have deadlifted for the last 20 years at least, the Polish and Russian teams deadlift, I’m sure plenty of other teams who uses more assistance exercises than the Bulgarian-inspired teams also deadlift. The results speak for themselves.

  3. From the above we can ascertain that elite lifters who deadlift perform well, and elite lifters who don’t deadlift also perform well. This is to be expected, as we are looking at elite lifters, whoi by definition are the cream of the crop. But what did they do before to get from a bodyweight snatch to a double bodyweight snatch? This is the really useful question, not what do they do now.

  4. You don’t pull a heavy deadlift deliberately slowly. You try and pull it as fast as you can.

  5. It assumes that a fast first pull is necessary.

  6. Regardless of how slow you pull a deadlift I guarantee you will not pull a clean that is 100kg lighter at the same speed.

22

Deadlift + Clean + Snatch = lower back overload. Since you need to train cleans and snatches as often as possible to master form, you need to avoid deadlifting.

23

I disagree. You just need to be smart about your programming.

24

[quote]romanaz wrote:

the thing with the deadlift is that, its a slow lift, and it trains the muscles to move slowly. Can’t be fast if you lift slow.

[/quote]

You might want to go back and think about that one again.

25

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
romanaz wrote:

the thing with the deadlift is that, its a slow lift, and it trains the muscles to move slowly. Can’t be fast if you lift slow.

You might want to go back and think about that one again.[/quote]

Thats true and that lies true for all sports, the way you practice the way you perform, and also if you lift at a faster, you’ll lift at a faster speed and if you lift slow, you’ll lift at a slower speed even if it load is light. It due to CNS firing. You got to train your body to do what you want with time.

26

[quote]ninearms wrote:
A few points:

  1. They are not essential to improve the snatcn and C&J. How often did the Bulgarian’s deadlift under The Butcher? They didn’t. You can’t argue with the results, however. How would deadlifting have helped Chakarov? The guy pulls 220kg in an arc around his knees and catches it bolt upright like it’s 60kg.

  2. Plenty of elite lifters DO deadlift. The Chinese have deadlifted for the last 20 years at least, the Polish and Russian teams deadlift, I’m sure plenty of other teams who uses more assistance exercises than the Bulgarian-inspired teams also deadlift. The results speak for themselves.

  3. From the above we can ascertain that elite lifters who deadlift perform well, and elite lifters who don’t deadlift also perform well. This is to be expected, as we are looking at elite lifters, whoi by definition are the cream of the crop. But what did they do before to get from a bodyweight snatch to a double bodyweight snatch? This is the really useful question, not what do they do now.

  4. You don’t pull a heavy deadlift deliberately slowly. You try and pull it as fast as you can.

  5. It assumes that a fast first pull is necessary.

  6. Regardless of how slow you pull a deadlift I guarantee you will not pull a clean that is 100kg lighter at the same speed. [/quote]

There is a video of the polish national team and they do not do any deadlifts, mostly high pulls since you can use heavy weight with it and it follows the motion of the clean better or snatch.

Most oly lifters do not deadlift, thats not to say all don’t sure some must its a great lift.

For the most part they rely on a big squat for strength rather then the deadlift.

27

If you’re referring to the 6-parter on Youtube then Grzegorz Kleszcz is shown deadlifting in part 5, at about 6:15.

There is another lifter in an earlier part who also deadlifts.

28

Actually the funniest thing is the fucking numbers… no offense to rippetoe but what the hell kind of guy can clean 400 but BARELY deadlift 475.

Perhaps its semantics but he has to know that what he’s writing will be taken as evidence, you can’t write some silly shit like that and expect it not to get looked at (and laughed at).

29

Here’s the Kendrick Farris DL video:

We’ve had success using clean grip and snatch grip DLs to teach beginners set-up and posture; basically the first phase of the lift up to the bump.

The technique is significantly different from heavy DLs though, and loading has to be adjusted down to accommodate the program volume; more of an auxiliary lift than a DL really.

Among more developed lifters options vary. There are lifters with respectable totals that say they’re great for driving up the lifts and there are lifters with respectable totals that say they have no carry-over.

30

[quote]ninearms wrote:
A few points:

  1. Plenty of elite lifters DO deadlift. The Chinese have deadlifted for the last 20 years at least, the Polish and Russian teams deadlift, I’m sure plenty of other teams who uses more assistance exercises than the Bulgarian-inspired teams also deadlift. The results speak for themselves.
    [/quote]

From where do you get the information that the Chinese, Poles, and Russians deadlift? Particularly the Russians?

I have not seen the deadlift discussed in the Soviet literature, I have not seen a Russian program using it, and in discussions with Russian coaches and lifters I have never heard deadlifting mentioned. Pulls, yes, absolutely.

Traditionally they have always been very big on those. But not deadlifting. The consensus opinion I received when asking was that deadlifting made no sense for an o-lifter.

The firing patterns are too different and deadlifting has little to add. Maybe something has changed or there are a few mavericks out there using deadlifts.

For what it is worth I the Turks also don’t do deadlifts. On the whole, the Turks use a system heavily influenced by the Bulgarians. No great surprise given that their greatest lifters, Naim Suleymanoglu and Halil Mutlu, both got their starts in Bulgaria and that many of Turkey’s coaches came from Bulgaria.

31

The Poles are deadlifting in the video I linked above.

The Chinese deadlift on one of the Ironmind tapes, and there’s a report from China on Mike Burgener’s site which mentions they do a lot of deadlifts.

Can’t remember where I read about the Russians, except is wasn’t any of the classic texts, i.e. it was modern report.

32

There are probably lots of weightlifters (dare I say majority) who do not deadlift regularly at all.

One particular exception to this rule comes to my mind. Maryse Turcotte whose coach Pierre Bergeron said in an interview that he had her deadlift a lot (while doing less actual classic lifts) in the preparatory period. And she definitely had success with it.

I think if you’re doing lots of classical lifts (for example closer to competition) then it doesn’t do too much good to deadlift at least not too often or heavy. On the other hand if you’re having troubles keeping your back straight & tight during the first pull then its worth to try deadlifts (using the weightlifting technique rather than powerlifting).

I’m a good example that decent deadlift (220kg at 75kg bw) doesn’t equal good power clean (at the moment 2 reps with 80kg) or any other olympic lift for that matter.

33

I think there should be a clear difference made between a clean deadlift and a normal powerlifting type of deadlift. Lifting with strict olympic lifting technique restricts kilograms quite a bit. Clean deadlifting 170 kg is heavy for me, but I can deadlift 220 kg (butt rising, all lowerback). I don’t think weightlifters use any all out powerlifting deadlifts.

34

[quote]arnoud verschoor wrote:
I think there should be a clear difference made between a clean deadlift and a normal powerlifting type of deadlift.[/quote]

I think this is enlightening, for me at least. All this time, I was under the impression that the deadlift we were talking about is pull-as-much-as-you-can deadlift, not some oly-specific deadlift.

35

IMHO- a strong deadlift relates to good WL lifts about as much as overhead pressing relates to shirted benching. They are totally different. I have found my ability to rip weight off the floor and drag it up my legs amounts to jackshit in WLing carryover.

The hardest part of a DL is either off the floor (for most sumo pullers) or at the knee (for most conv pullers). The hardest part of clean or snatch pull is popping the weight up to a rack on your neck or a catch on your hands.

A deadlift is ripped off the floor with zeal and righteous fury and then grinds to the top. A good clean or snatch pull leaves the floor pretty casually- the lifter doesn’t really hammer it until about knee height. It’s almost an opposite stength curve.

The optimum deadlift postition has the lifter finishing with shoulders pulled down and upper back rounded a bit (shortens the stoke quite a bit). A WL pull turns into a an exposive shrug about halfway up.

36

[quote]ninearms wrote:
The Poles are deadlifting in the video I linked above.

The Chinese deadlift on one of the Ironmind tapes, and there’s a report from China on Mike Burgener’s site which mentions they do a lot of deadlifts.

Can’t remember where I read about the Russians, except is wasn’t any of the classic texts, i.e. it was modern report.

[/quote]

Ninearms,

OK. Thanks for posting the video. I think a big part of the discussion here is confusion over definitions, as some other posters have pointed out. I would not call what the Polish guy is doing a deadlift. In my book that is a very heavy clean-pull. He has a clean-grip, and note the way he finishes the lift at top. Those two things tells me he is doing a clean pull.

By deadlift, I and some other posters mean as a powerlifter would deadlift. But, yes, the guy in the video is pulling such a heavy weight and moving it relatively slowly that it does bleed over into something like a deadlift.

So I see what you mean. The question of the place of heavy pulls like what the Polish guy is doing is an excellent one and still worth discussion. The Russian/Soviet school likes pulls. I take it that the Chinese also like to use pulls. The Bulgarians don’t them much at all.

Assuming one believes pulls are useful, the question becomes how heavy? I think the standard Russian school says up to 120% of your snatch or clean is OK for a snatch or clean pull, if done occasionally. I have heard others argue that pulls should be done at about 90% and never more than 100%; they claim going above 100% throws off technique too much.

My personal hunch is that going above 100% is OK and can be useful. But I don’t think that a powerlifting-style, max effort pull all that you can to get it up above the knees is very productive for weightlifters. Someone mentioned Rippetoe earlier in this thread. I think Rippetoe is flat wrong.

Great video by the way. Just the sounds of the bars hitting the ground, the weights clanging are awesome. Note how spare and spartan the weightroom is where they are training. Exactly how it should be. Just bars, platforms, a few squatracks, maybe a hyperextension bench. How much money is wasted in university weightrooms and similar places in this country with all sorts of machines etc.! Damn I wish I could be in a weightroom like the one in that video.

Ajax

37

[quote]back211 wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
romanaz wrote:

the thing with the deadlift is that, its a slow lift, and it trains the muscles to move slowly. Can’t be fast if you lift slow.

You might want to go back and think about that one again.

Thats true and that lies true for all sports, the way you practice the way you perform, and also if you lift at a faster, you’ll lift at a faster speed and if you lift slow, you’ll lift at a slower speed even if it load is light. It due to CNS firing. You got to train your body to do what you want with time.

[/quote]

First of all, since when is the DL a slow lift. Do you honestly think that all of those guys pulling huge amounts of weight whose lifts take 6-15 seconds do complete arent attempting to accelerate the bar as fast as possible. The intent to accelerate is the important part.

If your line of thinking held true, then maximal effort squatting would not be beneficial to football players or other athletes…in fact, the only thing that would be beneficial to them would be playing football.

38

[quote]Ajax wrote:
Assuming one believes pulls are useful, the question becomes how heavy? I think the standard Russian school says up to 120% of your snatch or clean is OK for a snatch or clean pull, if done occasionally. I have heard others argue that pulls should be done at about 90% and never more than 100%; they claim going above 100% throws off technique too much.

My personal hunch is that going above 100% is OK and can be useful. But I don’t think that a powerlifting-style, max effort pull all that you can to get it up above the knees is very productive for weightlifters. Someone mentioned Rippetoe earlier in this thread. I think Rippetoe is flat wrong.

Ajax[/quote]

Excellent point. I read in peoples logs doing pulls of 150-300% of their clean or snatch max and I’m really questioning what value this really has. It certainly appears to have very little.

39

I generally do pulls in the 105-120% range, dropping from 5 to 4 to 3 reps as the weight goes up. I don’t see much point in doing pulls at 90% - I’d rather just do more of the actual lifts, or even just do power versions.

However, if you are doing Oly-style deadlifts I don’t think percentages of your snatch/clean are that useful. If you can hold solid positions with 200% then I’d say use 200%.

You also have to remember you’re targeting different parts of the lift. You’ll deadlift mainly to bring up your strength off the floor, and do pulls to bring up your second pull, or do partial pulls to work on a particular position, such as pulls to mid thigh or paused pulls.

Drechsler mentions that he thinks clean deadlifts are slightly more useful than snatch deadlifts, although personally I prefer the latter.

40

[quote]ninearms wrote:
I generally do pulls in the 105-120% range, dropping from 5 to 4 to 3 reps as the weight goes up. I don’t see much point in doing pulls at 90% [/quote]

Since form generally starts to break down at >90%, consistently doing them higher than this would defeat the purpose of the pulls. Pretty much the same reasoning for not attempting to train cleans/snatches at 100% all the time. I think this is mentioned in the Russian Weightlifting Library that you’ve referenced a few times.