Dead Bodybuilders: An Autopsy Report

@phiroc @unreal24278
Can y’all fuck off to the Covid thread with this shit? Quit derailing the comment section. I find the conversation of Risk:Reward regarding the dosing of AAS far more interesting and beneficial. Neither of you two will convince each other of shit, so at least bring your bickering over to PWI.

@Mod_Phoenix asked this of y’all twice already.

10 Likes

If you take a look at the covid thread you’ll notice we have done just that

This is a tricky topic that needs to be taken on a case by case basis. An interesting discussion though

  • how much risk is an individual willing to tolerate? Some people really have nothing to lose, and as such wouldn’t care if their AAS use was going to take 50 years off! You see bodybuilders acutely overdosing on insulin from time to time… that’s how much risk they are willing to take
  • genetic profile (apoe 4 gene, familial hypercholesterolaemia, cardiac defects/arrhythmia present, genetically predisposed to hypertension or diabetes etc)

For someone with FH (I keep bringing up FH because it’s an interesting one in the context of AAS use) ANY use of orals (regular basis) is a surefire path towards a heart attack.

However testosterone itself tends to be fairly mild on lipids… it’s about genetics, risk tolerance AND compound selection. However the systemic element of oxidative stress accrued through AAS also likely facilitates plaque deposition.

Stanozolol is just terrible for you no matter who you are… same with tren

This actually reminds me of the boxing analogy with CTE. You have a bucket, each time you get hit in the head that bucket overflows… how big is your bucket?

Certain tests can be conduced to make a crude estimate… but even then… maybe you are uniquely predisposed to the cardiac damage AAS can induce.

My aunt has smoked since her early teen years. She is in her 70s now… she actually has FH (absurdly high LDL, she takes meds but it’s still high)
The FH comes from my grandfathers side, the grandmother lived til 97… so there’s likely some protective mechanism there that has kept her from succumbing to a heart attack or stroke. A combo of FH with otherwise good genes has kept her alive… her bucket should have been smaller

The smartest way to go about gear use is to somehow find a doctor willing to moniter you with bloods, organ imaging, the whole shebang. If you see you are crossing over into “irreversible damage” territory… stop… unless you don’t care

Many will justify self destructive behaviour. Most of the time these justifications are cop outs to avoid going head on and dealing with psychological/psychiatric burden… but sometimes justifications have merit (i.e you have a degenerative chronic disease and will wind up crippled or dead in 10-20 years).

We don’t need to condone or support these outlooks, but we should understand WHY some might turn to destructive paradigms. Some people really do feel as if they have nothing to lose.

1 Like

Interestingly I’ve been reading about Nandrolone quite a bit lately, and this was one of the goals in creating the drug initially - alongside the effects on Testosterone (without gyno/balding issues). A quick google search shows that Nandrolone also has little to no effect on lipids.

Interestingly, we still do not know if high cholesterol is actually a health concern. We released fucking cereal brands saying “Lowers Cholesterol!” like it’s a good thing, yet we do not know if that has any legitimate benefit. Fun stuff, science/medicine is.

I think that many people who dabble in AAS are okay with trading their future for a better today, which is a categorically bad outlook. Others look at it as a mild risk for above-mild reward; I find myself in this category. I’m willing to trade a few years down the road for significantly better years now (but only a few). It was for this reason I decided I’m not interested in competing.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.2001.281.6.E1172

This is it. Now, I’ll say that I think the study does have some issues with it. I don’t think water weight was accounted for very well (I am not sure, but I think intramuscular water showed up as lean tissue). The individuals were not very trained. Basically, I wouldn’t expect those results in a well trained individual especially after letting water drop off after. 9 kg of lean tissue, and 2 kg is pretty insane.

1 Like

We do know whether it’s a concern.

It is… not a single person with homozygous FH will make it past 45

The consensus isn’t clear when it comes to metabolically healthy individuals with marginally elevated lipids

When it comes to hereditary (due to genetic mutation) dyslipidemia the consensus is unanimous. Those with heterozygous FH who live their lives without any intervention die on average 20-30 years younger.

However people with FH don’t just have fucked up numbers… they have abnormal partiucate counts, meaning sub fractions of bad cholesterol that are uniquely prone to oxidation tend to be sky high.

They might also have low HDL and high tryglycerides in conjunction with this.

You might see a bad lipid profile in an overweight man… but chances are you aren’t going to see an HDL/LDL ratio of 8 to 1 etc like you might see in someone with FH.

Statins were designed for people with heriditary dyslipidemia. The widespread implementation is a new thing.

Nandrolone does effect lipids. I’ll pull up a study or two tomorrow. Estrogen positively modulates glucose and lipid metabolism. Nandrolone does aromatise, but at a rate of around 20% vs T itself. Pushing up androgen to estrogen ratios generally leads to dyslipidemia

However the dyslipidemia induced by nandrolone is milder compared to say… masteron, orals, tren or even primo.

Orals tend to be worse largely in part due to activation of hepatic lipase which catabolises HDL.

Orals are notorious for shooting HDL way down and LDL way up. You can’t ignore HDL of like 10 and LDL of 200+… on no planet is that not going to cause issues if such readings are sustained.

1 Like

Well, yes. But are we talking ‘androgens’ or ‘testosterone’? Nandrolone has an 11:1 myotropic:androgenic ratio, whereas testosterone has a 1:1 ratio.

Have been going through a GOOD bit of Nandrolone research… kind of wish the Nandrolone Deep Dive thread hadn’t been locked. I’ve got some speculating about how to avoid Deca Dick and want to discuss lol

Agree and agree. I think it’s moreso a conversation of high cholesterol vs ‘insanely high’, but I couldn’t tell you where to draw the line.

Yikes, looking through it now…

600mg Test E blast and asked not to train LOL.

And the poor group given 25mg/wk. RIP.

IIRC, they were given a drug to stop natural production as well. Probably didn’t feel too well in that group.

I remember using 750mg to a gram of test a week at one point, but this was during a time where I never cruised or came off. I just kept increasing the dose which I found eventually has a point of diminishing returns (at least for me). I want to associate it with my receptors being totally full/burned out? I’m not sure.

Just read through some of the takes and points underneath this exceptionally good article and some people on this site live so deep into denial and some are just stuck in a fantasy completely. Quite an interesting read though.

Would you mind giving examples of such denial and fantasy shown here?

I assume he doesn’t like the members with experience in this field downplaying the side effects. Yet, he provides no substance, as usual, other than a blanket statement that is derogatory at best.

2 Likes

Right. It anything, people are addressing reality here: long and short term use, death, doses, health problems, degree of risk. @blshaw

1 Like

How did you feel on this? I’ve only done TRT for about 20 years (100 mg per week or 5 to 10 g Androgel or Testim per day). My T value once got too high from 10 g Androgel per day (1500 ng/dl) and I did not like how I felt; I felt off, for lack of a better word. I knew something was wrong and scheduled to see my doctor. I think I’d feel bad on even on 150, let alone 200 mg per week.

I once had a well-known powerlifter tell me he used 2000 mg per week. I have no idea how people tolerate this. Perhaps my mind and body is just especially sensitive to this stuff.

I mean, I felt absolutely awesome and unstoppable. My numbers kept climbing (for a while), then leveled off. I was also extremely bloated from the water retention (and my diet was kind of sub-par at the time) so that did not sit right with me. I also used an AI, but I don’t think I was using enough of it.

1 Like

I haven’t had the time to read much on this site since covid apart from a few training logs I keep up with and am just a bit surprised by some of the members not understanding vaccines and shifting the goal posts and the whole “So What?” approach to the main article.

I can’t tell you that either when it comes to borderline lipids

You’d have to look at trig/hdl ratios, particulate counts, hdl/ldl ratios and such coupled with individualistic risk factors (are you a drinker, smoker etc).

For many, marginally elevated lipids means nothing

2 Likes

Look into dopaminergic dysregulation mediated through progestogenic drugs

The hormonal contraceptive is a progestogenic drug… look at the mental sides present within many who use that

Nandrolone use entails a far higher dose of a progestogen.

1 Like

May I ask what kind of blend you use TC?

Would love to hear more about this for sure!!