[quote]Chris Aus wrote:
what is defined as a BIG boxing match?
what is defined as a BIG UFC/MMA match?
[/quote]
I would consider De la hoya to be a BIGTIME match. Big as in the name of the fighters would be a huge draw.
Big ufc would be like lidell/ortiz or upcoming lidell/rampage.
A nice sensible, Dave Meltzer penned, LA Times piece on Boxing vs MMA.
[quote]Boxing vs. MMA? Everyone can win
By Dave Meltzer, Special to The Times
11:30 PM PDT, May 3, 2007
The prevailing news story in this week of Oscar De La Hoya vs. Mayweather, is that this is boxing’s last stand, and that MMA, and more particularly, the UFC, is taking over.
Some decry it as savagery replacing sport. Some grudgingly admit it is a more organized promotion serving its fan base better while taking advantage of an industry that has screwed itself up. Some see it as a reality that a real fight entails more than just punching, and once UFC got television, more and more people would figure it out. Some welcome the change. Some refuse to understand anything new. Some hate that a sport that has been a significant part of our culture for more than a century has competition from something that a few years ago wasn’t considered a sport, and one that has barely a decade of history, much of it being underground.
But the real story of combat sports over the next year, and the next decade, isn’t nearly so simple.
If you attend live boxing and live MMA, they have separate fan bases. Both will live and die based on an ability to produce good television, constantly create new stars, and by presenting the matches people want to see with those stars. But both can thrive, and both can falter, simultaneously. The test if they were truly eating the audience of the other was already proven back on Nov. 18, when both groups presented a major PPV event head-to-head. When Manny Pacquoia vs. Erik Morales and Matt Hughes vs. Georges St. Pierre took place on the same date, both events did the numbers expected.
Boxing, to its detriment, has an older fan base, and aside from the blowout night this week where boxing gets back on the front pages, it has for years been carried by the Latino community in the Southwest. At the grassroots level, when you attend boxing, the characters in the crowd make you feel like you are taking a trip back to the 70s. UFC is stronger with younger viewers, and has made it easier to see bigger name current fighters on television with endless weekly hours of taped fights on Spike TV. It has taken major media strides in the last year, but it has many more to go. Most newspapers won’t cover the next UFC even though Chuck Liddell vs. Quinton Jackson will do probably one of the five biggest PPV numbers of 2007 in any genre. Most television stations won’t be talking about it the next day in their sportscasts. But things move slowly, as 18 months ago, almost no newspapers or TV stations would get anywhere near it, and slowly, coverage has increased where you can expect the results that night on ESPN.
MMA also has a lot of hurdles. In a perfect world in both sports, there would be true world champions and all the top contenders would be in line. Among MMA’s secrets is it’s as fractured as boxing. There are countless organizations with countless championships. The UFC titles are the best known, because they have the strongest television coverage and a monopoly on the biggest names known in North America. But not only are there other champions, but the UFC power base of Lorenzo & Frank Fertitta and Dana White are presiding over two other organizations, the Pride Fighting Championships and World Extreme Cagefighting, with separate rosters and their own champions. They have the power to put the champions against each other, and when the other groups are established to the public, Super Bowl-like matches have been talked about.
One of the biggest hurdles is the sport itself. It can be a blessing at times, like when Randy Couture beat Tim Sylvia, or a curse, like when Gabriel Gonzaga beat Mirko Cro Cop, that upsets are going to be more prevalent in this sport than boxing. When you get to the top level, everyone has some aspect of his game better than his opponent, whether it be his wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, submissions, experience or conditioning. As the depth of the talent pool increases, so do the number of upsets. And it’s not just imposing your strength. The nature of the beast allows for things to happen that don’t in boxing.
In the Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Serra match on April 7 in Houston, where Serra, an 8-to-1 underdog, won the welterweight championship from someone who many tabbed the perfect modern fighter, he simply connected with a hard punch with small gloves. In a boxing match when St. Pierre went down, he’d have had an eight count to recover. It’s not unusual to see an underdog floor a champion early as a wake-up call, and the more skilled champion regains his bearings to win. That can also happen in MMA. But in this instance, there was no recovery time after the knockdown, as Serra continued to hit him and St. Pierre was done in the first round.
But now what on paper figured to be UFC’s three biggest money matches of 2007, St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes, Couture vs. Cro Cop and the winner of that match possibly against Chuck Liddell (provided he were to get past Quinton Jackson, which like every big fight, is hardly a lock) are out the window. For a fan of the sport of MMA, it makes it more exciting. For a fan who waits to see only big matches, the wait just got a lot longer.
The De La Hoya vs. Mayweather dynamic is based partly on the fact that De La Hoya has been on top for years and is facing an ultimate challenge from an unbeaten fighter. You are unlikely to ever get a 37-0 fighter in MMA, and you never will in UFC, where fighters at the main-event level are usually matched up with people who have the ability to beat them. Parity isn’t great when you want to do 1,000,000 buys on PPV. But with so many ways to win, and so many ways to lose, parity at the top level is seemingly inevitable. But you can only do those numbers only with superstars and grudge matches.
Whether the audience is willing to accept that St. Pierre or Cro Cop, or Liddell if he gets beat, are still big stars after first-round stoppage losses is, in the long run, one of its biggest long-term tests. Another is whether too much product on television will entice more fans, or burn out the audience. Last year was filled with constant talk of shockingly high numbers when it came to ratings and PPV. This year, with far more hours of programming, plus countless new companies trying to jump on a hot trend, there is no such talk. A major UFC event still can beat the NBA playoffs or NASCAR in Males 18-34, but it’s not going to be beating the World Series in October, like it did last year.
If we look at UFC’s biggest money players, the conclusion you come to is that its long-term is based on its ability to create a new generation of stars as popular as the one currently on top. For the stars of 2006, Couture is almost 44, and has popularity from his consistent ability to rebound after losses, but he can’t be expected to be a factor much longer. Liddell is 37, but his drawing power is based on his knockout power and that the new fan base knows he has lost, but has never actually seen it. Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie, who drew huge numbers last year, will likely never be back in a UFC main event. Tito Ortiz, St. Pierre, Forrest Griffin, Matt Hughes, Rich Franklin, Diego Sanchez and B.J. Penn, the other stars of last year, are all trying to rebound to reclaim their spot after major losses. Mirko Cro Cop, Japan’s human highlight reel, had the style and charisma to make him the best shot to rapidly jump to the head of the class. But now he’s best known by U.S. fans as being on the wrong end of someone else’s highlight reel. The turnover at the top is quicker than sports fans are used to.
On paper, you can say Matt Serra is a great talker who can be pushed as an overachiever. Josh Koscheck is a brilliant wrestler, but has to overcome a mentality from wrestling based on winning by points as opposed to being entertaining. Gabriel Gonzaga may be the biggest test of all. He just beat Cro Cop and will be favored against Couture when they meet on Aug. 25. If he becomes champion, the public takes to him as a star, and his title matches prove to be big draws, then UFC can survive and thrive in a world where upsets will become a regular thing.
It doesn’t matter what happens to boxing on Saturday, or after Saturday, and whether boxing or pro wrestling (which is probably more legitimate competition with UFC due to their similar target audience) have banner years or terrible years. UFC’s role in a changing sports world will live or die based on the company’s ability to market new stars, and the public’s willingness to accept new stars, and that big stars are going to lose, and not write them off.
Dave Meltzer is the creator and author of the Wrestling Observer Newsletter, a leading publication covering pro wrestling and MMA. For more information: www.wrestlingobserver.com[/quote]
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Agressive Napkin wrote:
I just wanted to share a bit of stupidity I hear the other day.
My friend: “Dude, Chuck Liddel could totally take all these boxer guys.”
Chuck Liddel would get his ass kicked. However it would be much better to watch. At least one of them would not be scared to get hit or throw a punch. We need to take boxing back to the early 1900’s when people fought until somebody got knocked out.
Floyd and Oscar just ended the sport of boxing. The most hyped up fight since the Tyson days, and all we saw were jabs, amd a few punching flurries on futile attempts to excite the crowd. I think the shit talking was more entertaining. Personally I’d rather watch Mike tyson and floyd mayweather sit in the ring and talk shit to each other.
Anybody that says boxing is an art, and can’t see that the last 10 years boxing has become more about points then fighting can not be a true fan. I guess thats why everybody likes watching amatuers fight, at least their in it for the fight.
Valid points, but man, these guys are middlweights. Not only that, but both of them are boxers, not brawlers. What’d you want? Them to stand toe to toe and bang out when neither of them does that anyway?
[/quote]
I don’t want to see a brawl but I want to see 2 good fighters FIGHT. Yes Floyds style is to dodge punches and against poor fighters he can knock them out, but I need him to go in agains good boxers and knock them out also. The way he fought, he could very well go in against a heavy weight and win the fight. There pretty much is no need for weight classes if these guys are not going to punch. Jabs are nice but I need to see power punches landed.
Does anybody here remember the sugar ray leonard days. He was quick and dodged punches, but every one of his fights he was in there throwing power punches even if it required taking a punch.
Truth is Oscar De La Hoya lost a fight because he did what Floyd did. Just when he fought trinidad it wasn’t accepted.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Yes Floyds style is to dodge punches and against poor fighters he can knock them out, but I need him to go in agains good boxers and knock them out also. [/quote]
I believe he knocked out both Genaro Hernandez and Diego Corrales who both qualify as good boxers in my book. The reason Floyd doesn’t get many knockouts is because he’s not a natural 154 pounder. Heck he’s probably not even a natural welterweight. He should still be fighting at 135 or 140 but he moved up because that’s where the money is. I think Floyd weighed in at around 150 for this fight, 4 lbs below the weight limit, he was probably giving up about 15 lbs to DLH during the fight.
Actually because of these gloves mma fighters can’t deliver full force punches (unless on the sweet spot) because it would break their hands.
While wearing boxing gloves you don’t have to worry as much about this as long as you are making a proper fist.
Question…are you a fighter or a fan?
[quote]yanksta wrote:
If boxers wore those gloves, you would see alot more knockouts to. But thats not boxing, boxing isn’t a street fight, its a tactical war. UFC fighters will never understand what it means to be tactical because they fight three to five round fights and take huge beatings exponentially faster than in boxing.
[/quote]
Holding up the punchstat as a reason to justify the decision for Mayweather is like taking a step backwards from pro back to Olympic boxing. No one wants to watch that. It decides no issues. Boxing champions used to be the boxers most capable of hurting the other guy.
Maybe it has something to do with the whole ‘pound for pound’ construct in that eventually the guy reaches a weight class where he can box but can’t fight.
For example, Mayweather beat Baldomir from pillar to post but didn’t finish the fight, and it was one of the more violent of his heavier fights. Oscar might have been outboxed (given the split decision), but as far as a fight was concerned, he was never more than annoyed while Mayweather was, at best, worried.
All I can say is that even should rematch go the same way, I would love to see Bernard Hopkins or perhaps Shane Mosley take this opportunity to eat Mayweather alive.
[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
Holding up the punchstat as a reason to justify the decision for Mayweather is like taking a step backwards from pro back to Olympic boxing. No one wants to watch that. It decides no issues. Boxing champions used to be the boxers most capable of hurting the other guy.
Maybe it has something to do with the whole ‘pound for pound’ construct in that eventually the guy reaches a weight class where he can box but can’t fight.
For example, Mayweather beat Baldomir from pillar to post but didn’t finish the fight, and it was one of the more violent of his heavier fights. Oscar might have been outboxed (given the split decision), but as far as a fight was concerned, he was never more than annoyed while Mayweather was, at best, worried.
All I can say is that even should rematch go the same way, I would love to see Bernard Hopkins or perhaps Shane Mosley take this opportunity to eat Mayweather alive.[/quote]
I agree. Good post.
D
[quote]slimjim wrote:
Agressive Napkin wrote:
I just wanted to share a bit of stupidity I hear the other day.
My friend: “Dude, Chuck Liddel could totally take all these boxer guys.”
I don’t know, I think Chuck could probably knock Floyd out in a boxing match[/quote]
Liddell is a good puncher by UFC standards, no doubt. However, I would say his punching technique and hand speed are below average by boxing standards. I don’t think there is any way he makes solid contact with Mayweather in a boxing match, much less knocks him out.
[quote]Kreal7 wrote:
vbm537 wrote:
Mayweather was afraid to actually fight. All he did was score points but he wouldn’t fight. I give credit to Oscar for not being afraid like Mayweather.
It is boxing, not a street fight. The objective is to score points… Mayweather had a game plan and it worked.
Oscar did press the action though if that is what you were trying to say. I also thought he landed more punches than what the statistics showed. Oscar surprised me though, I thought he would completely fall apart in round eight or nine. [/quote]
Does this mean you’re ready to admit he wasn’t in it for the check? I think you and I can agree that a lot of fighters take fights for the money, but I think Oscar’s ego is too big for that, even if he did need the money.
http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/a/a/aaca4-______[_].jpg
I give Oscar Props for taken it to Mayweather and showing no fear. He has more heart then mayweather.
Mayweather does look like tommy davidson, doesn’t he?
[quote]SKman wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Yes Floyds style is to dodge punches and against poor fighters he can knock them out, but I need him to go in agains good boxers and knock them out also.
I believe he knocked out both Genaro Hernandez and Diego Corrales who both qualify as good boxers in my book. The reason Floyd doesn’t get many knockouts is because he’s not a natural 154 pounder. Heck he’s probably not even a natural welterweight. He should still be fighting at 135 or 140 but he moved up because that’s where the money is. I think Floyd weighed in at around 150 for this fight, 4 lbs below the weight limit, he was probably giving up about 15 lbs to DLH during the fight.[/quote]
My point is that his intent was not to knockout Oscar. These guys are jabbing to death nowadays. As far as boxing goes the only fight I want to see is Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins, because I honestly think Bernard is mad at Roy and would attempt to knock him out.
Yes boxing is an art but the original goal was to knock the other person out. The original goal now is to score, because your too scared that if you go in to knock a guy out you will et knocked out first.
Honestly, looking at that fight even if Oscar was a poor fighter I don’t think Mayweather had any intent on knocking him out and vice versa.
Like I said make these guys fight until someone falls, and boxing will change.
[quote]OMC wrote:
Actually because of these gloves mma fighters can’t deliver full force punches (unless on the sweet spot) because it would break their hands.
While wearing boxing gloves you don’t have to worry as much about this as long as you are making a proper fist.
Question…are you a fighter or a fan?
yanksta wrote:
If boxers wore those gloves, you would see alot more knockouts to. But thats not boxing, boxing isn’t a street fight, its a tactical war. UFC fighters will never understand what it means to be tactical because they fight three to five round fights and take huge beatings exponentially faster than in boxing.
[/quote]
I’d say honestly im more of a fan of MMA. I’ve trained in it for about a year and a half on/off. Ive done boxing much longer than that. I never found much difference in punching with boxing match gloves and mma gloves though. If you train the hands enough, they can take a beating.
[quote]snewland22 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Agressive Napkin wrote:
I just wanted to share a bit of stupidity I hear the other day.
My friend: “Dude, Chuck Liddel could totally take all these boxer guys.”
I don’t know, I think Chuck could probably knock Floyd out in a boxing match
Liddell is a good puncher by UFC standards, no doubt. However, I would say his punching technique and hand speed are below average by boxing standards. I don’t think there is any way he makes solid contact with Mayweather in a boxing match, much less knocks him out. [/quote]
Dude, I was trying to be mildly amusing. Chuck is 225 and fights at 205. Floyd fought at delahoya at 155 yet weighed in at 150. Chuck is 6’2" and would have a distinct reach advantage over Floyd (5’8".)
I can’t believe you actually put together an argument about PBF winning a boxing match against Chuck (or that I took the time to respond for that matter) Floyd would get stomped on by a much, much bigger fighter. It is the reason they have weightclasses in the first place.
Brings me to another point. I can’t stand the title of best “pound for pound fighter,” you know why that was invented? cause the little guys can’t stand the fact that some slower, often fatter, and less skilled opponent can beat the shit out of them.
Damn, I was hoping Oscar would win.
I’ve heard of many pro fighters breaking hands in street fights or just in training. Read stories of bare knuckle boxers and they usually have more fractures in their hands than teeth (may not be all that hard).
Many boxers obtain hand injuries in training while wearing 16 ounce. If you can throw your full force punch utilising your hips ,dropping the knee, dipping the knuckles and all that and still your hands are fine…your not punching hard enough. With sufficent force somethings gotta break… skull or hands.
You are correct in hand conditioning to a point. When I started training for full contact my hands couldn’t take the force of my punches but after several months they caught up. Having said that I’ve trained with some of the most powerful strikers around and they have all sorts of hand problems…they just grit their teeth.
[quote]yanksta wrote:
I’d say honestly im more of a fan of MMA. I’ve trained in it for about a year and a half on/off. Ive done boxing much longer than that. I never found much difference in punching with boxing match gloves and mma gloves though. If you train the hands enough, they can take a beating.[/quote]
For anyone who cares, the fight broke every money-related record for the fight. It broke the 1.99 million PPV buys set by Tyson and Holyfield’s second fight. This fight had 2.15 million.
For anyone interested, here’s the link to read up some more: