to add to what scott said, if you switch the exercise with each failure point, you will also have a hard time figuring out if you beat the logbook or not seeing as each exercise may or may not have different rep ranges, different apparatuses, etc. db’s use a higher rep range than bb’s so how would you know how to set up a bb incline to a db incline for your second rp set to a set of pec decs for your 3rd rp set.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Professor Chaos,
You are losing the effectiveness of RP if you are doing that. The simple goal is to cause a tremendous overload of a key movement. Taking your 7-9 rep max and doing 13-16 reps with it. Switching exercises defeats this purpose.
[/quote]
Not to mention that you likely wouldn’t be able to use anywhere near the potential weights that you were capable of if you tried switching exercises like that. And you would have to either take up multiple pieces of equipment or rush to load up the other exercises while you were supposed to be taking your deep breaths and recovering. Which, like Scott says, would pretty much defeat the purpose.
[quote]Aprentice wrote:
alright thanks!
I like DC. I have been doing training as intense or more intense for the past year so I am quite used to it.
There was a period of time I did a 4x ABAB split and I did 14 sets back to back all sets to failure, 12 reps per set, 4 sets per exercise. It was insane. Not great gains… it was more of a weight loss technique.
[/quote]
If you could do anything even close to 14 sets of 12 reps back to back, then you either are a complete genetic freak, or you weren’t training with even close to the intensity that you thought you were. A true maximal set is going to require at least a couple minutes (probably more like 3-5, unless maybe it’s a very high rep set) to be able to match that number of reps again, if not even more.
There is no set time period that a blast should last. You keep going until your body tells you to stop. Which, honestly is one of the reasons that young relative newbies such as yourself are not advised to do DC. You don’t have enough experience or intensity (sorry, but that’s just the truth in most cases) to be able to do the program like it’s intended.
I’d honestly suggest doing something like Madcow’s 5x5 program, or maybe even Starting Strength by Rippetoe if you’re really new to this stuff, or one of CT’s programs (just remember that his programs call for ramped sets, even though it’s not usually mentioned), or one of IronAddict’s programs for a few years and developing a good strength base as well as some experience and self knowledge.
Then come back to DC and you’ll probably understand it better and get better results out of it.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Professor Chaos,
You are losing the effectiveness of RP if you are doing that. The simple goal is to cause a tremendous overload of a key movement. Taking your 7-9 rep max and doing 13-16 reps with it. Switching exercises defeats this purpose.
The calf protocol was developed out of necessity given the uniqueness of calves and how tight they are… it’s not needed nor effective for other body parts. However pausing briefly in the stretch position on certain movements can increase the activation of that body part. This is particularly effective for lat width.
I helped Nate Green with an article on this site that covers most of the basics, their are stickies and “manuals”(copy and pastes) EVERYWHERE. [/quote]
Thank you Scott,
Would you mind commenting on my plan? First time doing this type of training and am an intermediate level lifter and grappler/bjj practitioner with average recovery from what I can tell. Did my best with what I’ve read here…
1A: Hammer Strength Bench Press RP
Hammer Strength Row RP
Overhead DB Press RP
Wide Grip Pull Up RP
Thick Grip Wrist Curl RP
2A: Glute Ham Raise RP
Seated Calf Raise using DC method
Decline Triceps Ext RP
Thick Grip Incline DB Curl RP
Squat SS then 20 Rep
1B: Low Incline DB Bench Press RP
Seated Row RP
High Incline Smith Machine Press RP
Hammer Strength Pulldown RP
Wrist Ext RP
2B: Stiff Leg Deadlift RP
Calf Press on Leg Press machine as above
Overhead Rope Ext RP
EZ Bar Spider curl RP
Single Leg Split Squat RP
3A: Decline Bench Press RP
Rack Pull RP
Overhead BB Press RP
NG Chin Up RP
Thick Grip (2") Reverse Grip Scott Curl RP
3B: Leg Curl freemotion machine RP
Single Leg Calf Raise as above
Prone Incline Hammer Curl RP
Close Grip Decline Bench Press thick grip RP
Leg Press RP
[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Professor Chaos,
You are losing the effectiveness of RP if you are doing that. The simple goal is to cause a tremendous overload of a key movement. Taking your 7-9 rep max and doing 13-16 reps with it. Switching exercises defeats this purpose.
The calf protocol was developed out of necessity given the uniqueness of calves and how tight they are… it’s not needed nor effective for other body parts. However pausing briefly in the stretch position on certain movements can increase the activation of that body part. This is particularly effective for lat width.
I helped Nate Green with an article on this site that covers most of the basics, their are stickies and “manuals”(copy and pastes) EVERYWHERE.
Thank you Scott,
Would you mind commenting on my plan? First time doing this type of training and am an intermediate level lifter and grappler/bjj practitioner with average recovery from what I can tell. Did my best with what I’ve read here…
1A: Hammer Strength Bench Press RP
Hammer Strength Row RP
Overhead DB Press RP
Wide Grip Pull Up RP
Thick Grip Wrist Curl RP
2A: Glute Ham Raise RP
Seated Calf Raise using DC method
Decline Triceps Ext RP
Thick Grip Incline DB Curl RP
Squat SS then 20 Rep
1B: Low Incline DB Bench Press RP
Seated Row RP
High Incline Smith Machine Press RP
Hammer Strength Pulldown RP
Wrist Ext RP
2B: Stiff Leg Deadlift RP
Calf Press on Leg Press machine as above
Overhead Rope Ext RP
EZ Bar Spider curl RP
Single Leg Split Squat RP
3A: Decline Bench Press RP
Rack Pull RP
Overhead BB Press RP
NG Chin Up RP
Thick Grip (2") Reverse Grip Scott Curl RP
3B: Leg Curl freemotion machine RP
Single Leg Calf Raise as above
Prone Incline Hammer Curl RP
Close Grip Decline Bench Press thick grip RP
Leg Press RP
[/quote]
No rep ranges?
Also, your order seems to be a bit confused.
The order goes:
A workouts-
Chest
Shoulders
Triceps
Back width
Back thickness
B workouts-
Biceps
Forearms
Calves
Hamstrings
Quads
(unless you are doing some sort of stiff legged deadlift variation, then you’d want to do a non lower back taxing quad exercise like leg press and swap the order of quads and hamstrings)
How serious are you with the BJJ?
[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Scott M wrote:
Professor Chaos,
You are losing the effectiveness of RP if you are doing that. The simple goal is to cause a tremendous overload of a key movement. Taking your 7-9 rep max and doing 13-16 reps with it. Switching exercises defeats this purpose.
The calf protocol was developed out of necessity given the uniqueness of calves and how tight they are… it’s not needed nor effective for other body parts. However pausing briefly in the stretch position on certain movements can increase the activation of that body part. This is particularly effective for lat width.
I helped Nate Green with an article on this site that covers most of the basics, their are stickies and “manuals”(copy and pastes) EVERYWHERE.
Thank you Scott,
Would you mind commenting on my plan? First time doing this type of training and am an intermediate level lifter and grappler/bjj practitioner with average recovery from what I can tell. Did my best with what I’ve read here…
1A: Hammer Strength Bench Press RP
Hammer Strength Row RP
Overhead DB Press RP
Wide Grip Pull Up RP
Thick Grip Wrist Curl RP
2A: Glute Ham Raise RP
Seated Calf Raise using DC method
Decline Triceps Ext RP
Thick Grip Incline DB Curl RP
Squat SS then 20 Rep
1B: Low Incline DB Bench Press RP
Seated Row RP
High Incline Smith Machine Press RP
Hammer Strength Pulldown RP
Wrist Ext RP
2B: Stiff Leg Deadlift RP
Calf Press on Leg Press machine as above
Overhead Rope Ext RP
EZ Bar Spider curl RP
Single Leg Split Squat RP
3A: Decline Bench Press RP
Rack Pull RP
Overhead BB Press RP
NG Chin Up RP
Thick Grip (2") Reverse Grip Scott Curl RP
3B: Leg Curl freemotion machine RP
Single Leg Calf Raise as above
Prone Incline Hammer Curl RP
Close Grip Decline Bench Press thick grip RP
Leg Press RP
[/quote]
first of all, your exercise order is messed up. you are combining tricep movements with legs, etc. fix the order and figure out what goes where. day one is chest, shoulders, tris, width, thickness. day 2 is biceps, forearms, calves, hams, quads. fix the order first, then give some rep ranges that you were thinking about.
in addition, bjj and things of that nature don’t go very well with dc. it will hamper your recovery and also your bjj skills. how are you going to shoot on someone the day after squats, or how are you going to be able to hold someone in guard when they have your elbow in your quad the day after you do squats? it’ll be very difficult for you, not to mention your body will most likely not get enough recovery time and your strength gains will be minimal.
Dropshot and Sentoguy,
Thank you for the feedback and your patience. As far as BJJ… my primary focus has been and will continue to be lifting for the next 6 months while limiting BJJ. I tend to alternate focus btw the two but will still be drilling technique a few times a week.
Here’s my second try: I’m sure I’ll need help with rep ranges to make it DC approved :).
1A: HS Bench Press RP 15-20
Overhead DB Press RP 20-30
Decline Triceps Ext SS 8-12
Wide Grip Pull Up RP whatever reps i can, probably 15-20
HS Row SS 4-6 then 8-12
2A: Thick Grip Incline DB Curl RP 15-20
Thick Grip Wrist Curl SS 8-12
Seated Calf Raise DC Method
Glute Ham Raise RP whatever reps I can do, probably 10-15
Squat SS 6-8 then WM
1B: Low Incline DB Bench Press RP 15-20
High Incline Smith Machine Press SS 8-12
Overhead Rope Ext RP 20-30
HS Pulldown RP 15-20
Pulley Seated Row SS 10-20
2B: EZ Bar Spider Curl RP 15-20
Thick Grip Reverse Grip Spider Curl SS 8-12
Calf Press on Leg Press machine DC method
Split Squat back leg up SS 4-6 then 8-12
Stiff Leg Deadlift SS 8-12
1C: HS Decline Press RP 15-20
Overhead BB Press RP 20-30
Dips SS 8-12
NG Chin Up SS 8-12
Rack Pull SS 10-20???
2C: Thick Grip DB Curl RP 15-20
Hammer Curl SS 8-12
Single Leg Calf Raise DC Method
Pull Through SS 10-15
Leg Press RP 20-30
Is there a systematic way you guys organize which exercises you use RP with and which ones SS? Above I really just did what I thought I’d be able to tolerate and recover from.
Also, I’ve never done rack pulls but love the idea and can see why they’d be a great back thickness exercise. How do you guys do 'em? What rep range do you find best?
[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
Dropshot and Sentoguy,
Thank you for the feedback and your patience. As far as BJJ… my primary focus has been and will continue to be lifting for the next 6 months while limiting BJJ. I tend to alternate focus btw the two but will still be drilling technique a few times a week.
Here’s my second try: I’m sure I’ll need help with rep ranges to make it DC approved :).
1A: HS Bench Press RP 15-20 - THESE CAN BE DONE AT AN 11-15 IF YOU WISH, IF NOT THIS RANGE IS FINE TOO
Overhead DB Press RP 20-30
Decline Triceps Ext SS 8-12 - THESE CAN BE DONE WITH A 20-30RP SO YOU DON’T HUGE THE ELBOWS
Wide Grip Pull Up RP whatever reps i can, probably 15-20 - IF YOU CAN’T DO PULLUPS, TRY RACK CHINS
HS Row SS 4-6 then 8-12 - THESE CAN BE DONE RP BECAUSE IT IS A SEATED ROW TYPE OF MOVEMENT WHERE YOUR FORM SHOULDN’T GET MESSED UP DUE TO FATIGUE
2A: Thick Grip Incline DB Curl RP 15-20 - 20-30RP
Thick Grip Wrist Curl SS 8-12 - 12-20SS
Seated Calf Raise DC Method - 9-11SS
Glute Ham Raise RP whatever reps I can do, probably 10-15 - CAN GO 15-20 AS WELL
Squat SS 6-8 then WM - 4-8SS THEN WIDOW
1B: Low Incline DB Bench Press RP 15-20 - 20-30RP
High Incline Smith Machine Press SS 8-12 - 15-20 OR 11-20RP
Overhead Rope Ext RP 20-30
HS Pulldown RP 15-20
Pulley Seated Row SS 10-20 - THESE CAN ALSO BE RP, MAYBE 11-15RP
2B: EZ Bar Spider Curl RP 15-20
Thick Grip Reverse Grip Spider Curl SS 8-12 - 12-20SS
Calf Press on Leg Press machine DC method - 9-11SS
Split Squat back leg up SS 4-6 then 8-12 - I PERSONALLY DON’T USE THIS EXERCISE, BUT I WOULD GO WITH A 8-12SS THEN THE WIDOWMAKER. I WOULD GO RIGHT LEG HEAVY SET, LEFT LEG HEAVY SET, RIGHT LEG WIDOW, LEFT LEG WIDOW. DO THE WEAKER LEG FIRST AND MATCH WITH THE STRONGER LEG
Stiff Leg Deadlift SS 8-12
1C: HS Decline Press RP 15-20 - CAN GO 11-15RP
Overhead BB Press RP 20-30 - MAYBE A LITTLE LOWER RP, LIKE 11-20 OR 15-20RP
Dips SS 8-12 - 15-20RP OR 11-20RP
NG Chin Up SS 8-12 - MAYBE PULLDOWNS HERE?
Rack Pull SS 10-20???- 6-10SS AND A 10-14SS OR SOMETHING AROUND THAT RANGE
2C: Thick Grip DB Curl RP 15-20 - 20-30RP
Hammer Curl SS 8-12 - 12-20SS
Single Leg Calf Raise DC Method - 9-11SS - DO THE STRONGER LEG SECOND, MATCHING STRONG LEG REPS TO WEAK LEG REPS
Pull Through SS 10-15
Leg Press RP 20-30 - NOT RP, DO A 8-12SS AND THEN THE WIDOWMAKER
Is there a systematic way you guys organize which exercises you use RP with and which ones SS? Above I really just did what I thought I’d be able to tolerate and recover from.
Also, I’ve never done rack pulls but love the idea and can see why they’d be a great back thickness exercise. How do you guys do 'em? What rep range do you find best?
[/quote]
in caps above. the rep range for rack deads is up there as well. i prefer to do the rack deads from below knee level or so so that the range of motion is longer. for the most part, the rp applies to all c/s/t/width movements as well as biceps and some ham exercises. things like gm and sldl aren’t done ss because of safety. back thickness such as deads, rack deads, bb rows are done ss. if you are doing seated row/cable row type of exercises, you can rp those.
for quads, there is pretty much no exercise you rp. things such as squats, front squats, leg press are all done ss.
Triceps are usually RP sets (in 1C you have a SS). In 2C leg press should be one heavy set 4-6 rep and then a WM.
In 1B you have overhead rop ext. which I would replace with some kind of press (unless you have a shoulder issue, but you’re doing dips so I assume not) as you already have another ext. move. I like CGBP on the smith and pin presses worked well for me too.
.
You guys rule… what an incredibly helpful group. I just finished my workout 1A (didn’t get your revisions in time, but I’ll adapt them next time)… I thoroughly enjoyed the workout. My focus was laser-like and the workout was pretty damn quick, even with 4-5 warm-ups for each exercise.
I heavily underestimated the pain level of the stretches, particularly the chest one. Holy crap! The only one I couldn’t really feel that well was the shoulder stretch… How do you guys stretch the medial delts? (I was using the Shelby Starnes stretch I saw in a youtube video)
Also, the weight I was able to use for DB Overhead Press was reduced by 5lbs per DB from the fatigue of chest presses… is this what you guys expect or am I doing something wrong?
Just keep playing around with the stretch… use as light a weight as you need and learn the body positioning to get it right.
That’s normal, you will be back at and above your previous weights soon enough.
sometimes, the chest stretch would interfere with what i could do with shoulders or triceps, so i personally do the chest/shoulder/tri stretches consecutively after doing chest/shoulder/triceps. that way the stretches don’t adversely affect your working set weight.
[quote]dropshot001 wrote:
sometimes, the chest stretch would interfere with what i could do with shoulders or triceps, so i personally do the chest/shoulder/tri stretches consecutively after doing chest/shoulder/triceps. that way the stretches don’t adversely affect your working set weight.[/quote]
x2
[quote]Professor Chaos wrote:
The only one I couldn’t really feel that well was the shoulder stretch… How do you guys stretch the medial delts? (I was using the Shelby Starnes stretch I saw in a youtube video)
[/quote]
Just add a bit more weight on the stack then. I do the same stretch and I let the shoulder getting hit drop a little and I feel a real intense stretch. If after 30-45 seconds it’s not getting hit good ramp up the weight! Helps if you look in a mirror when doing it to.
Prof. Chaos,
You may want to follow the Justin Harris overhead rope ext video - EliteFTS.com: Troponin -Overhead Rope Extensions - YouTube - to squeeze out additional reps for each leg of the RP.
You should reconsider your forearm selection for 2A. Swapping out wrist curls for an exercise such as pinwheels w/ straps would potentially help you build more overall mass.
If your (lower) back starts to overload with sldls & rack pulls on back-to-back days, sumo press is an excellent ham builder to use as a replacement for sldls.
Also, recovery can be tough, especially if you’re adding in additional bjj work on top of the DC training, so make sure you keep the cals high and rest plentiful.
About to fall off the front page. Bump!
CC, I recently saw you mention there were times outside of the gym where you just felt so taxed and fatigued, like a walking zombie. I have been training DC style now since February without break or rest and lately have felt myself feeling completely dazed outside of the gym, unable to focus and exhausted.
I have also been fading pretty badly at about 3/4 of the way through my workout. I also remember you mentioning something about cruising and blasting…can you elaborate on those concepts for me if you have the time?
[quote]Davinci.v2 wrote:
CC, I recently saw you mention there were times outside of the gym where you just felt so taxed and fatigued, like a walking zombie. I have been training DC style now since February without break or rest and lately have felt myself feeling completely dazed outside of the gym, unable to focus and exhausted.
I have also been fading pretty badly at about 3/4 of the way through my workout. I also remember you mentioning something about cruising and blasting…can you elaborate on those concepts for me if you have the time?[/quote]
Well I’m not CC but I can explain Cruising and Blasting.
Basically, you do a blast (your A1-B3 workouts) for 10-14 weeks. This can be lengthened or shortened depending on you and the way you feel (i.e. unreasonably fatigued = end of blast). Another reason to end a blast is if you stop progressing on the majority of your exercises.
You start a cruise when a blast ends and, again, the guidelines are just that. Typically a cruise should last 10-14 days. During the cruise, any gym time is just maintenance. No going to failure, no extra intensity techniques, etc. On my last cruise I went to the gym only one time. It’s also a time to loosen up on your diet a little if you need. This is the time you give your body for CNS recovery.
When you start your next blast, you can change out the exercises (especially the ones you weren’t progressing on) or back off of the weight a bit so you have some “momentum” when you get to and surpass your previous max. A technique I’ve used when I have to use an exercise from the blast immediatly prior to the one I’m planning is changing the rep range. This has helped me progress on a couple of the back width moves.
I’d say if you’ve been blasting since February, you’re well overdue for a cruise!
Thanks for that TorqIt. So on a cruise, really only just a couple times to the gym during the 1.5-2 weeks off if that? I have to be honest, I have felt like my CNS is just completely burnt.
Yeah. Especially in the case of such an extended blast. The longest I’ve gone is 15 weeks and the cruise following that was two weeks with just one full body workout in that time.