Okay, i usually don’t like to be blunt, but the first getting ripped support group had some threads that seriously burn my ass.
Unless you are seriously juicing, or are bascially fasting, you can not lose more than 1.5lbs of FAT in a week. I am tired of people saying that lost this and that amount over these short ass times. If you do, you most certainly are not jacked, as your muscle would be wasting away at those caloric deficit levels. 3,500kcal is a pound of fat–there is no way around it. Oh yeah, and don’t say you lost five lbs in the first four days of keto or fat fast, becase that does not count being water.
I am currently getting ripped (second time) and have lost about 2.3lbs over 2 weeks, consistent with food charts and my calcuation of ENERGY DEFICIT. One can not just change macronutrient ratios and say they lose fat–you can not violate the basic law of thermodynamics no matter what anybody says. Sometimes some of these threads kill me to read.
Does anybody agree with me on this…its almost like saying you can lose fat and get jacked at the same time. Beginners maybe as a shock to the body takes place, but otherwise faghetaboutit no matter what he/she says…Physiologically, it CAN’T happen, unless of course, juice is in the mix.
Berardi covered this topic well in his last column at T-mag. You can safely lose 4 pounds of fat a week but you have to be pretty fat to begin with. Doesn’t work that way for already lean guys.
Agree, Vain. I think that we need to think more in terms of “Body Recomposition” instead of just fat loss. And we CERTAINLY better get away from the idea of merely thinking in terms of total WEIGHT loss.
Yep…once you get beyond fluid and electrolyte shifts, anything greater than a 1.5 (MAX 2 pound) weight loss, is taking some muscle with it.
I tell you honestly, guys…I’ve often gotten motivated in the past by seeing the numbers on the scale go down. However…measuring the fat-to-lean ratio in that loss brought me back to earth!
Ok. I agree (sort of). I know that when I fast or drop out carbs I’m going to loose about a gallon of water (8#). It happens every time and is expected. But I ‘know’ that I’m loosing bodyfat beyond that because calipers, mirror, and Tanita bare that out. I also think that you can loose about 1.5#/day of fat for short runs without loosing much lean mass. I’m dropping from >190# down to ~170# but I expect to gain back 8# (glycogen/water) to put me at an ending weight of ~178# (re-inflated). Hopefully I will have lost about 10# fat and only 2# lbm. I’d accept that. I’d ‘like’ to be doing this with gear but its not an option right now.
I did basically a CKD diet a few years ago. I wasn’t watching calories, just carbs. When your’re eating that high of a fat percentage, at least for me, calories are self regulating. In about 5 weeks, 3 of them in ketosis, my net loss was 17 lb. I don’t normally eat a lot of carbs in general so my water weight loss and rebound on carb up was 3 lb. every time. I did cardio just about every day when in ketosis, but not too intensely, I also took 50-75 mg. of ephedrine a day. I lost just under 4" from my waist, 1/2" on my arms, and 3/4" on my chest. My lifts all returned to where they had been prior to the diet. I remained at about that weight for a year or so. I wasn’t eating or lifting to bulk or lose so that was expected. I suppose I could do a bunch of math etc. but I know what happened to me in what time frame and what my body composition did.
First of all, it seems like it is my numbers that you are balking at, so I obviously need to address you question. I agree with you for the most part. I think that it most cases, if you start to lose more than 2 lbs of fat a week, you are likely going to lose a lot of muscle too. One thing you should consider is the stage of my cutting phase. Those results were in the first week. Before that first week, I was averaging 3700-4500 cals/day while doing a 2 week MAG-10 cycle and then 2 weeks using tribex and zma. Over that period, I added 9.25 lbs of lean body mass and .75 lbs of fat. My metabolic rate was sky high also. Then, I took a pretty drastic change and cut cals to 2500-2900 a day and added a lot of cardio. I lost a lot of weight fast. Do I expect to lose 4 lbs of fat a week for the next couple of weeks. ABSOLUTELY NO! Also, you have to realize that there is measurement error in body composition measurements that can play a big role if you compare week to week. I have to look at things over time. I have a weekly log of my body composition since october. I realize that some weeks seem kind of crazy and others are tame, but time tells the story. Why would I post bogus numbers. I have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I think that people on this board respect what I say and realize that I know my stuff. Why would I lie? Why would I lose credibility? I’m going to post my numbers every week so that people can see the progress that I am making and so people can hold me accountable when I screw up. I was pleasantly suprised this week, but I sure don’t expect my progress to stay at that rate, although I obviously would not mind.
Vain68 - I posted on the support group thread I believe you’re referring to as losing 24 lbs in 8 weeks which is averaging 3 lbs a week and that is what has happened. I can drop weight easier than others but when I decide to do it, I get very serious about it. From previous experience, if I was losing at only 1.5 lbs a week, week in and week out, I would be very discouraged, and personally think most people on a diet losing at that rate are not putting much effort into it. Though I agree I would never be able to do the 3 lbs a week without thermos, etc. The 1.5 lb a week might be realistic if dieting without any supplements but why would you not want to take advantage of the many helpful supps available? I also realize that part of the loss is glycogen and water which you will have to lose no matter what kind of diet you’re on as if you’re truely in calorie deficit, you will have to burn off glycogen and water with fat. Also, just like glycogen, fat holds water, so in reality, a 1 lb loss of “fat” is not 3500 calories of fat as fat on the body holds water and when you lose that 1 lb, it is a mixture of fat and water. When you grab a hold of a handful of bodily fat on your gut, it is not pure fat but a mixture of fat and other bodily fluids and therefore when you lose a lb of that handful, you do not lose 3500 calories but do lose a lb of weight. What we really want to lose is inches, but those inches are not made up of pure fat at 3500 calories a lb but lbs of a mixture of fat and water and if you want a six pack, you have to get rid of the water with the fat. I don’t believe the posters on the thread there inferring that they lost only fat but were posting their “weight loss”. I cann’t speak for the honesty of any of the other posters but what I posted was accurate and is what happened. I’m currently at 1500 cal a day and doing 2 long sessions of cardio every day along with lifting and am also taking some very beneficial supps. And even if some of the posters are juicing, whats your problem with that? As if that is the case, its not your business. In fact, what is your problem?
Why don’t just forget weight loss jargon? Get to it and lose it! We can thread on forever while taking no action. By the time the engineers get done talking about “how to fix the light” I’d have it already fixed. Why over-complicate something?
Heb-Sorry to offend
But i am not sure if your notion on fat and water is correct…if it is, kudos to you. When we on this site speak of weight loss, i think most posters and others are concerned with “FAT” loss as opposed to water loss from glycogen depletion. At 1500kcal a day in energy, and you doing long cardio sessions, i must ask, what are your stats?..that is an absurdly low level of calories…now, if you are starting from a very or lets say moderately high body fat percentage i can understand.
as for the juice, i am not saying that people that do them are inherently “bad” but a law is a law and furthermore, take away the juice and let everybody do it naturally and lets see who makes the gains…the musclehead who juices…or guys and gals like myself, mufusa, kb, patricia, etc. and the many others on this site, who are very intense about diet and legal supplements…to me juice is cheating–bottom line.
I guess at 1500kcal a day you are probably creating your desired energy deficit for that kind of fat loss, but you must literally be hungry as hell or in such a deep ketosis that your hunger is blunted.
Indeed-let us know your starting numbers.
Congrats on your success.
Vain
As the major form of energy storage, fat provides a buffer for energy imbalances when energy intake is not equal to energy output. It is an efficient way to store excess energy, because it is stored with very little water. Consequently, more energy can be derived per gram of fat (9 kcal.gm-1) than per gram of carbohydrate (4 kcal.gm-1) or protein (4 kcal.gm-1). In addition, if terrestrial animals stored their excess energy as carbohydrate, the increased mass would interfere with mobility. The average woman with 20% body fat has about one month of energy stored as fat.
Oh damn it, I had to reply to this thread. You sir, are going above and beyond all of this, and taking it way too harshly. My advice? Go get yourself a Coors light, and relax. Pouncing on someone for just stating their thoughts is not cool. This guy is busting his ass, and you’re going to start hammering on him and telling him he sucks, because of what he is saying. That is complete bullshit. I will tell you my story. I’m 6’2 and ripped to no end. I use no juice, and I take good care of myself. I do what I have to, I run 5 miles every morning and I pound weight at night. I take Saturdays off from training, and have a nice big meal at my wife’s mother’s house. Pasta, Sausage, and Garlic Bread. Usually, I pop a couple of beers with the boys at night too. I come home and rail the pants off of my wife, and I’m feeling great all the time. You can use my arms as stencils, and my wife washes my clothes on my abs. My bodyfat sits right around 6%. And? I enjoy my life. I love it. I look great, could compete without a problem, have a great job, a wonderful family, kids that love me, and friends that are fantastic. And I live my life to my fullest potential. So who cares man? Who gives a damn? If it works for him, then good for him! I’m proud of this fella. Sitting here and tearing into this guy is pathetic. And anyone who wants to challenge me by saying I’m “not serious” about bodybuilding can say what they want to. To each his own. I respect myself, and that is what matters most to me.
-Power
I like what this guy has to say. I’m 5’6’’ and way in at a lean 350lbs. I did until I started weight training. Now, I’m down to about 165 and ripped like a home cooked meal fart. I lift 5 days a week and don’t use juice. I drink protein shakes 3 times a day before my work out, after, and before I go to bed. I hit the tread mil twice a day. I work out of my home and have all the equipment their so I am good in the hood. I loose at lest 1.5 lbs a week just from lifting weights and the tread mil. The fat is replaced by muscle and I am ripped big time. I have never felt better. I go out when I want and pound back some cold ones. Never intesify my training after though. Stick with my normal routine. It has worked for me. I will stick with it until I have a chance to change. My girlfriend works out with me so it’s really fun. Sometimes we rock the house on the bench machine. A healthy dose of sex also helped with the training. Having sex is a great way to loose weight and work your arms, legs, and if you are a woman your face muscles. A dose of steel, a ride on the tread mill and a little hummping is a great work out. Everyone should try it. On the same note don’t sacrifice your time out. Have a few drinks. You can always burn it off by pumping iron the next morning. ANd don’t forget the steak and lobster. Shit loads of protein in that as well. Talk to you later all,
Buff
Some guys get their egos or emotions puffed up by ripping into someone. That’s how little people react. They never read “testosterone forum guideliles” and think thest forums belong to their “superior knowledge”. They forget it’s public nature. They have the mentality that an “opera” radio station would be taking up “their” airwaves. Just like us common sense guys taking up “their” forum. Some really believe unless you train “their only way”, take “their only supplements”, that you are not really “hardcore” or “serious”. Private forums like these is where these kind express obnoxiousness. Do you think they would in public? Hardly. One guy is “homo” this and “homo” that, another writes “look it up” all the time when answering would involve less work. I help out here, and go elsewhere for real “live” social intereaction.
These are the results from a study by Martin et al. “Adipose tissue density, estimated adipose lipid fraction and whole body adiposity in male cadavers” Int. J. of Obesity. 1994. V.18, pp.79-83. I have read several papers by this research group and they are the current authority on the chemical composition of the human body based on cadaver dissection. This study looked at adipose tissue composition (lipid + water + residual). Lipid and water generally make up greater than 90% of this mass, so I will ingnore the residual component. Their study showed that if you had a lower % body fat, you had a greater proportion of water in the adipose tissue. If you had a greater %body fat, you had much less water in the adipose tissue. Here are the results from the six cadavers: 1)17.8%body fat (%BF), adipose water fraction (AWF) - .363, adipose lipid fraction (ALF) - .540…2)23.4%BF, AWF-.321,ALF-.638…3)27.1%BF,AWF-.286,ALF-.638…4)27.8%BF,AWF-.249,ALF-.685…5)30.1%BF,AWF-.184,ALF-.767…6)43.9%BF,AWF-.118,ALF-.850…So what this means in reality is that when we are losing fat, we are also losing water, especially for any of us under 20%, which is most of the us people trying to get ripped. As I can understand, their calculations, I will try to give an example. So if a person is 200lbs with 15% body fat, he has 30lbs of body fat (adipose + water) and using the assumption of subject 1 above, the composition of that lipid tissue is 10.89 lbs water and 19.11 lbs lipid. I’m not sure what the 3500 cal/lb fat calculation is based on, but it might be wrong if it is based on lipid alone because it would not take into effect the AWF. Hope this helps!
I can lose 5 lbs of fat the first week after a bulking cycle without losing muscle and without steroids. I routinely only diet for about 4 weeks out of the year, and the rest of the year is focused on muscle.
In response to your “belief” that fat cells contain only lipids would be analogous to believing muscle cells contain only amino acids. In reality, ALL cells of the body are bathed in electrolytic fluid (electrolyte - ions in solution in WATER) and contain this fluid both extra cellular and INTERCELLULAR to facilitate the movement of all nutrients and other substances through the cell wall. That is how trigyceride is deposited in fat cells and released. As the fat cell increases in size due to additional fat storage, the elctrolytic fluid will increase also to accomidate the larger cell size and cell membrane. This is why we will feel bloated when we gain a lot of fat - bloated from the increased electrolytic fluid in the fat cells also. Females, in particular, seem sensitive to the fat cells swelling with additional electrolytic fluid. As we diet and lose fat, the fat cell shrinks in response to fat loss and the electrolytic fluid decreases also to accommodate to the smaller cell size and this decrease is seen as water weight loss but contributes to a smaller fat cell size. And to get a 6 pack and see our abs and muscle, we want to get rid of this extra fluid (water) as much as the fat, as both hide our muscles. As the diet progresses and the fat cells approach the smallest size they can shrink to (they never completely go away unless liposuction), the fluid loss decreases also. The fluid loss is greatest at the beginning of the diet when fat cells start to shrink and that is why when somebody (such as myself) goes from double digit fat% to single digit, the rate of weight loss can be quite dramatic in the initial stages (and this is in addition to glycogen and its associated water loss) but slows considerablely once in single digit as fat cells have considerabely already shrunk by then and that is what I have experienced. And if you read my post, you would realize that I had a dramatic loss because I went from maintenance of almost 3000 in stages down to 1500 calories while doing 2 a day cardio which the computor on my cross trainer indicated calories burned of 300-700 PER SESSION (I was probably averaging 600-700 cardio calories per day). And as I indicated, I hate cardio and prior to the diet, hadn’t done cardio in about 1.5 years. (I was doing cardio the whole 8 week period but got way more serious with diet the last 3 weeks). I’m currently at 8% and my rate of weight loss has considerablely slowed down and I am starting to get worried about reaching my 6% goal. But I have lost 24 lbs in 8 weeks! (I had some periods where I was losing a lb every couple days). And I realize that body fat % is the true measure of fat loss but most of us find it convenient to track day to day progress on the scale and associate fat loss to weight loss until down in single digits. And I realize that my approach of low calories and lots of cardio is not recommended but, if you read my post, you will realize I am recovering from a severe injury and have already lost a lot of size and strength anyway due to the mandatory lay off associated with this injury. And I’m finding even at 1500 calories, because I wasn’t able to lift at all for 8 weeks after the injury, my strength is starting to slowly go up again in spite of the diet as my training is slowly progressing through rehab. And even if I hadn’t had the injury, I wouldn’t be that concerned with size or strength loss as I believe in “muscle memory” and from prior experience know my size and strength will return rapidly after ending the diet. Size loss is only a concern if you’re a competative BB but most of us are recreational BB’s and just want to look good nakid. Also, in response to your comments on my hunger and energy levels on such a program, that is where the ephedra (and its not illegal - yet) and T2 and triax (it was legal when I bought it) come in. Without those supps - no I wouldn’t have been able to do it. I was taking the ephedra at above label recommendations - I hope that isn’t illegal. And by the way, androsol and Mag-10 are legal juice - is that still cheating? Besides, I wasn’t competing with anybody - I certainly wasn’t competing with you, I just want to look good naked - so how is that cheating? And 1 last thing - in your last posts, you frequently speak of your self as “we” as if you have been chosen as the spokesperson of the entire forum - I don’t recall ever reading a post electing you forum overseer. Does Vain68 speak for the rest of you?
Just read your last post and wanted to comment: your study data on fat vs water content of fat cells was presented in %'s, not absolute value of each. I believe that the reason a leaner person has a higher % of water is because as fat cells shrink, they lose more fat than water (but do lose water) so water, as % of total, increases. However, in absolute values, the fatter person has more total water than the leaner person and this higher total amount of water contained in the larger fat cells of the fatter person will drop rapidly with fat loss, just at a slightly lesser rate than fat loss. My 2 cents from my experiences and that of other people I’ve seen go from double digit to single or near single digit BF%. Also, thanks for the Mag-10 refrigerator advice. I was aware of that but because of the injury, wasn’t sure when I would be able to use it and Roberts indicated long term storage should maybe be in fridge but before use to take out and let warm up for several days while regularily shaking it back into solution. I hope anyway. Thanks again Jason - you’re a tremendous asset to the forum.
One last comment - your analogy that we store fat because it is more efficient to store fat than glycogen due to water involved is not correct. We store both fat and glycogen because of aerobic vs anaerobic energy needs - we need both fat and carbs to function efficiently. And we are efficient machines.