Just posting this here so I don’t hijack the other post any further.
For those just joining, I’m not interested in arguing about why you personally don’t like Crossfit. I’m just here to answer questions since my posts in the confession thread seem to have been helpful. I won’t respond to trolling so if that’s all your here for, don’t bother.
Anyways, ask away.
I’m curious how crossfit athletes stay healthy? For me personally when I increase the frequency of many movements I develop many aches and pains such as knees, elbows, bicep tendon etc. Progress usually stalls. I realize most in crossfit have moved past random workouts but in general they seem to have a very high frequency of training which can be detrimental to many joints tendons etc. Especially since many appear to consistently train with a very high intensity.
I think that there’s a couple of answers here.
The first is that, while overall training volume is high, there are simply so many movements that are trained, exposure to individual movements is relatively low.
The second is that Crossfit athletes, especially the high level athletes who are doing the really high volume training are also spending a lot of time working on their movement quality and range of motion. Stretching, yoga, bodywork, etc is all far more popular in the Crossfit world thanks ever seemed to be to me in powerlifting or bodybuilding. Crossfitters also seem to take a more proactive stance on these things and rely on supportive equipment less since belts, wraps, etc are cumbersome in a fast paced metcon.
How do the benchmark WODs fit into the overall training methodology? Are they done often as a way to gauge progress?
The benchmarks run the gamut in terms of load, movements, and duration so they can fit in anywhere there’s a need for a metabolic effort of similar length and composition. At our gym, we might do Helen or Christine (8-15 minutes on average) on a Tuesday or Friday after some strength training or we might do something like Murph all on its own on a Saturday since it takes most people 40-50 minutes to get through.
How often do you run the longer WODs like Murphy vs. the shorter ones like Helen?
I’m just trying to wrap my head around how you’d plan a fun training week/cycle.
In other words, do you plan your week almost like a traditional strength athlete might?
For example
Mon: Squat
Tue: Bench
Thur: Deadlift
Frid: OHP
And then pick a WOD to match. Or is it more random than that?
Most gyms program strength work less frequently than your hypothetical template there since they’re also working cleans, snatches, jerks, overhead squat, etc and they’re probably dedicating 2-3 days/week to strength focused workouts. Personally, I’ve found I need less strength volume to make progress since I started crossfitting. The metcons provide enough stimulus on their own to hold me over between heavy strength workouts.
As far as randomness vs structure, most gyms have some sort of structure but how much really depends on the coach and their preferences. With so much going on, there’s always some degree of chaos and it’s not really practical for everything to be highly structured. The level 1 manual (free on crossfit’s website) has a theoretical structure that it recommends for rotating means, durations, etc.
With regards to how often benchmarks show up, I would say 1-3 times per month with specific benchmarks showing up 1-3 times per year. We always do Murph on Memorial Day weekend and again on Veterans Day. Other than that, it’s really just dependent on the programming.
So @Stronghold, how would/do you structure training? Similarly to that manual?
What about something like how the new 5/3/1 Forever system is laid out? Which, basically goes:
EDIT: so a sample day could be…
I compete in strongman, but have thought about going to the darkside & competing in a crossfit comp & it seems like it would work in theory, but I don;t have the experience in practice to back it up.
That’s definitely a good setup for someone interested in pushing training a little past fitness and into the realm of competition.
Wendler’s newer stuff definitely has a lot of similar ideas behind it, although I think he’s still not a fan of the metcon per se.
I have goals related to competition and my personal training reflects that. I definitely do more work than the average crossfitter who is looking at a long steady upward trajectory, but it’s working for me so far and is pretty consistent in terms of volume with how other competitors that I know train.
Get ready for a novel…
Strength:
Im already pretty strong relative to my body size and have a pretty decent amount of muscle, but I’m slow as Christmas and not terribly coordinated. Thusly, my training reflects this with a much heavier emphasis placed on weightlifting than on traditional gross strength training (squat, press, deadlift). I run 3 week mesocycles and everything is organized on that framework. I work weightlifting M, T, Th, F with Monday being heavy, Tuesday moderate, and Thursday/Friday being light. I alternate lifts day by day and switch which lift gets the heavy day each mesocycle. I cycle the volume and average intensity up and down across several mesos and generally focus more on accumulating quality volume at moderate intensities than just getting to my top weights. Every weightlifting piece will start with a couple of minutes of technique practice and drills with a pvc and then empty barbell. After weightlifting on Tuesdays, I do a pressing strength exercise (bench, push press, etc) for a heavy (1-3 reps) set and then back off volume which sort of depends on what the goal of that mesocycle is. In week 3, I’ll just work up to a rep max in the range I’ve been working that cycle. After weightlifting on Thursdays, I’ll do some squatting for volume, again with loading dependent on the goal of that mesocycle. Right now, it’s 8’s, but later in the summer it might look more like traditional speed work. I usually do this with the safety squat bar but sometimes I’ll run front squats for a mesocycle or two. On the third week of the mesocycle, I’ll work up to a heavier set in whatever range I’ve been working that mesocycle. On Saturdays, I work up to a heavy 1-3 set on a squat or deadlift variation. This is basically the max effort method. I’ll deload this and skip it during the third week of the meso since I’m working a heavy set the previous Thursday. I keep all of my sets on strength work to EMOM or E2M although for higher rep squats, I’ll let it drift out to E3M.
Conditioning:
I’m a big proponent of the idea that having a broad aerobic base supports higher and more sustained power during glycolytic efforts (which is where a lot of competition events tend to fall) since it allows you to handle a larger energy demand before redlining and starting to generate uncomfortable levels of lactate and to clear more of the burny stuff more quickly once it’s there. Right now I’m doing monostructural rowing on Monday and Thursday’s instead of metcon, so that’s either longer intervals pieces or a 20-40 minute steady state effort. Tuesday, Friday, and Saturday I do the metcon from our whiteboard. Once we get into the summer, I’ll probably do metcon every day instead of the rowing.
Skill/Accessory/Other:
I try to do skill work every day if I can and accessory work typically falls on the day prior to a day off since it tends to make me more sore. My gym uses Invictus Performance so I use what they post for my metcon, most of my accessory work, and skill work. I also like the skill progressions from the book “Overcoming Gravity” and use those. Every workout also begins with a 5-10 minute general warm-up followed by a 5-10 minute dynamic warm up to get things moving well.
This is awesome! I really appreciate the novel. I’ve read it a couple of times over & will read it over again, and check out those resources. I already looked up the programming from Ben Burgeson(?) in the other thread. Are your mesocycles planned out way in advance in a block periodization set-up or you you tailor each block toward perceived weaknesses in the previous cycle?
Bergeron, Invictus, Misfits are all good free resources for competition level programming. If you’re planning on training at a box, I would definitely drop in at the ones in your area and sort of shop them around to see which one fits your personality and schedule the best. Some even offer competitors classes with seperate programming. Regardless, if you’re going to train at a box, take the classes, at least at first. Individuals following different programming can create a logistical nightmare for owners who are running a class based model and you’ll benefit from the “break in” period of lower training stress while your body adapts to frequent metcon. If you’re dead set on individualized training right out of the gate, OPEX offers personal programming and basically functions as an open gym at all times, provided there’s one convenient to where you live.
I program mesocycles to serve both purposes if that makes sense.
Thanks for the wealth of info so far @Stronghold, really enjoyed your posts here and in the flame free thread.
I have to say the more i think about it, the more i think the hostility to crossfit from some of the more ‘traditional’ lifting crowds is probably in decent part due to the specific prism through which they view the gym, lifting and so on clouding their thinking. Although I get that most lifters take health seriously to some extent, most aren’t lifting to be better athletes overall rather than to be the best/strongest powerlifter or the biggest/best looking bodybuilder they can be.
I think it fair to say that anyone out to be the best athlete they can be would be better served in a serious crossfit set up than doing a PPL split over 6 days with no cardio or doing 5/3/1 over 4 days with a couple of 10 minute spells on the stat bike…to use a few crude examples.
I understand why the variety /seeming randomness in crossfit is valuable from an athletic point of view in other words. Pure strength will only get you so far in most sports. Without speed, power, general cardiovascular stamina, agility and so on, you’re getting nowhere.
What in the hell is the deal with kipping pull ups (possibly referred to as Chest to Bar now)? I watched the Netflix documentaries and you don’t see them in the 08 games so I think they might’ve evolved with the sport.
Do they actually hurt shoulders?
Do they build your back like pull ups?
Kipping is how gymnasts generate power on the bar/rings. Remember that Crossfit is about improving work per unit time, so kipping takes pull ups from an upper body strength exercise with a pretty low threshold for fatigue to a compound exercise thats got a much higher fatigue threshold.
Chest to bar are a type of pull up in which simply have to touch your chest to the bar vs just clearing it with your chin.
If you do them correctly (active shoulders) and have adequate strength on strict pull ups (Crossfit recommends achieving a certain number of strict pull ups before attempting kipping), they don’t hurt your shoulders. If you do them incorrectly or aren’t prepared for the movement there’s obviously a higher risk of injury.
The first time I did Murph in a vest, I butterflied (a more advanced, efficient style of kip) my way through 100 reps in sets of 5 and my lats were the sorest they’ve been since I first started lifting. Take a look at the people who arguably do more kipping pull ups than anyone else on earth, games athletes, and you’ll notice none of them are particularly lacking in lat development.
Thanks a lot man!
@Stronghold Thanks for taking the time to do this,
My main questions would be:
Of what primary benefit is crossfit over a more targeted approach? Or rather, what does crossfit do better than other modalities of lifting? What is crossfit “the best” at?
If one adheres to and believes in the Constantly Varied approach, How does crossfit do it better than something like a Chad Waterbury program? This one, for example, which is constantly varied, but (in my opinion) is more intelligently laid out because it still has progression and a focus built into it (much like all of his programs. Constantly varied but around a goal, where each workout moves you toward that goal, AND takes into account things like load/reps and the exercises being used on the day. For example, you wouldn’t do a set of hang cleans for 2 minutes straight, but push ups are fine)
[quote=“Lonnie123, post:18, topic:240871”]
Of what primary benefit is crossfit over a more targeted approach? Or rather, what does crossfit do better than other modalities of lifting? What is crossfit “the best” at? [/quote]
The primary benefit of Crossfit is that it’s not a more targeted approach. You’re still not getting what Crossfit “is” vs “isn’t”. It’s not a “modality of lifting.” Its a philosophy and approach to fitness that seeks to be as broadly inclusive of as many physical capacities as possible. If all you get out of Crossfit is lifting, then you’re doing it wrong. In the level 1 they show you a fitness pyramid (not unlike the food pyramid) with the first tier being nutrition, the second being metabolic conditioning, and third being gymnastics. The smallest tiers on the pyramid are lifting followed by sport.
My questions to you would be:
I’m not familiar with the program in question, but if you go back to the first part of my response here, you’ll note again that Crossfit is not a program in the manner that 531 is a program or Waterbury’s thing is a program. That being said, your assumption is that there’s no intelligent progression involved in Crossfit. Getting beyond the silliness of this claim just based on the definitions of what we’re talking about here (since “no progression in Crossfit” is like saying “there’s no progression in powerlifting”). I do crossfit and program a lot of my own training, there’s intelligent progression there. Invictus, Misfits, Bergeron and nearly everyone else in the business of competition training builds their programming around an annually periodized model. Even the Crossfit.com training uses a loose periodization model with scaling and benchmarking serving to adjust loads and pacing to the individual. The difference between Crossfit (as a broader approach to fitness) and the Waterbury program (I’m basing this on what I know about his older writings) is that Waterbury’s got a program for resistance training and Crossfit is far broader in its scope than that. Waterbury’s program is a lecture course. Crossfit is a major/field of study.
I also think where you’re tripping up over this is that you’re stuck in this reps-load paradigm of fitness that’s really narrowly applicable only to strength training. Just because there’s not an obvious and idiot proof manner of progression like “this week do 3 sets of 5, next week do 4 sets of 5” built in to the training doesn’t mean that it’s not there. “Beat your previous time from 2 months ago” is absolutely a method of progression, and one that’s more applicable to what Crossfit considers to be the ultimate goal (increase work/time). I’ll say this as well, I think programming is pretty overrated when you get beyond the novice phase of training and that effort and periodization on the macro and mesocyclic levels is far more important.
Again man, no offense or anything, but you really are making a lot of arguments here that are based upon extremely limited understanding of what’s going on. It’s hard to answer questions when we aren’t operating with the same basic understanding of terms.
Correct me if I’m wrong, @Stronghold, but CrossFit seems to be the ultimate GPP “program”. I think calling it a program is lacking but it’s simple to understand.
If you want to get stronger, faster, leaner, improve conditioning and health, and be a jack of all trades kind of person then CrossFit seems to be able to do that.
If you want to add an inch to your chest and that’s your only focus then it might not be the right approach (but it might still do the trick).
I want to be bigger and stronger and hopefully reach the 3/4/5 plate standards. I’m not sure if I could do that with CrossFit. I haven’t tried and I don’t know anyone who has done those specific things. I know CrossFitters can do that but I don’t actually know anyone why developed their strength at the box.
But I know lots of people who have achieved those numbers in the gym so I’m following that approach. It’s familiar to me. I’m beginning to open my mind to the possibility of CrossFit because the serious people seem to possess what I want:
You’re on the right track with that.