Cressey: October Prime Time

Eric,

I’ve been trying to get different opinions on why I always get lower back pain after doing front squats.

I do Olympic lifting, and I usually start out with snatches or overhead squats. Neither causes me any problems. However, once I do squat cleans or front squats, I almost instantly get low back pain (believe me when I tell you that I have good form, so that shouldn’t be the cause of the pain). Stretching my psoas seems to help a little, and I do it often, but the pain never goes away no matter how much I stretch.

I do “no-no-no” squats (front and back), could that be the problem? Lack of ab or lower back strength? I am an attorney, so I sit at a desk all day. I 'm not the most flexible person in the world, but I do have decent flexibility in certain areas (I can do overhead squats with chuck taylors on, no problem)

Any help would be appreciated.

Eric: Are you going to do Russ Barlow’s meet in March?

I am planning on being there.

Eric T.

Hey Eric,
I tore my PCL in my left leg a little over two weeks ago, and fortunately the orthopedic specialist said no surgery, just rehabbing it for 4-6 weeks. Can you give me some pointers for things I should avoid and thing perhaps that I should include in my lower body training once I have the green light to train on my own again? Thank you in advance for your time and help, I appreciate it.
-Greg

[quote]brotzfrog10 wrote:
hi eric i have some balance questions for you. I understand the idea of balancing particular movement patterns such as horizontal pulling/pushing with equal or if need be greater volume, however what about factoring in equal load into the equation. Doing body weight chins and dips are easy enough to equal each other out however adding in there volume and weight along with horizontal pressing how easy would it be to do enough horizontal pulling to make the balance equal.[/quote]

If you check out my posting history, you?ll see a few comments I made on this the other night. Basically, intensity takes precedence over absolute load; in comparing different movements, you?re comparing apples and orange.

Yes, but only in a general sense. It?s one of the reasons we have strengths we leverage and weaknesses we train to address. Nobody is ever going to be perfectly balance; things fluctuate even in an acute sense.

It would depend on your strengths and weaknesses, obviously. Remember that shoulder flexion is trained significantly through benching movements as well, so you?re rarely able to consider a single joint by itself (i.e. curls, extensions, etc).

Sure; shoot it my way. I think it?s important to include some knee flexion work, preferably in the form of GHRs in the off-season. In season, knee flexion work has a tendency to tighten people up who are already doing a lot of sprinting. I?ve noticed it myself and with athletes with whom I work, and as I recall, Joe DeFranco has mentioned it, too. Overall hamstring length (and, in turn, knee health) is highly impacted by what you do with hip extension, as all the hamstrings cross the hip joint with the exception of the short head of the biceps femoris. Plus, strengthening the hamstrings at the hip will take some of the burden off of the quads at the knee, particularly with respect to deceleration of everyday movements.

[quote]one last topic was eccentric training. I feel that maybe perform eccentrics for certain movements every three mesocycles or so, (enough to reap the benefits but not enough to burn out) would be a good idea in order to stop the occurence of de-acceleration injuries that so often happen to athletes especially in the shoulder rotators and the hip extension as well as knee flexors(torque of throwing motion and slowing down after sprinting running after fly balls ala ken griffey jr) Is the frequence enough or maybe to much or am i off the mark with my observation
[/quote]

I don?t feel that you need to separate things into different mesocyles; they?re all easily included in the same mesocycle if you plan properly. Eccentrics are actually good for deload weeks. Remember that deceleration is velocity-specific, too; the best way to train deceleration is to practice decelerating at higher speeds in CONTROLLED environments so that the body will subconsciously tolerate such challenges in an UNCONTROLLED environment by optimal body mechanics. There is still going to be some carryover from regular ol? training, though; maximal strength is the basis for everything, ya know?

I wouldn?t use Griffey as an example for much of anything other than the fact that the biggest risk factor for hamstrings strains is a previous history of hamstring strain.

[quote]conorh wrote:
Hey EC,

I was just wondering what input you were going to give me on this thread:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=781616

I mean, your interest really piqued my curiosity…

Thanks,

Conor[/quote]

I was just trying to bring to light the fact that there isn?t a rhyme or reason to many people?s programming (or lack thereof). Some people will go the gym with the intention of just ?working out? rather than working toward a specific goal (read: training). If you?re going to do something, it might as well be getting you closer to where you want to be. Seems like you justified yourself pretty well; not everyone can do that. :slight_smile:

[quote]matticus wrote:
I did my second workout of part 2 (V) of neanderthal no more today. On the chest supported row I’m guessing a barbell setup with a pronoted almost bench width grip is what you’re going for… In the college’s weight room we don’t have a chest supported row setup so I attempted it on an adjustable incline bench, but was unable to get a full range of motion, running into the bench supports probably a good 9" to 1’ from my sternum. In light of this I did the exercise with dumbells to enable me to get full scapular retraction. What should be my reletive aiming point in relation to my torso for my row? Should I be rowing the weight straight up (too much upper trap recruitment) or back at an angle perpendicular to the chest support (I went with the latter)?[/quote]

We actually recommend DBs. I encourage people to get their head off the edge of the bench so that they can get more range of motion (stand and lean instead of sitting). You were correct in pulling back rather than just up.

Retraction comes with external rotation, bit try to avoid complete protraction in the bottom position. The delts and traps work together on the way up prior to the external rotation; it?s a functional movement pattern. On the reversal, you should be able to go past parallel; stop if you have any pain, though.

[quote]brotzfrog10 wrote:
hey its me again. I had two more quick inquries. I was wondering is it necessary to balance your training during each session(such as horizontal pulling/pushing volume) or should the entire week and your training cycle be equal in respect to opposite muscle movements. If i were to focus on my vertical pulling(chins) and vertical pushing(dips) one workout while adding in some extra scap retraction work but not enough to equal the total volume since both of those exercises are body weight plus exercises which the only rowing exercise close to that would be seated rows and alot of seated rows< however this assumes you believe it necessary to equal both volume and load which i mentioned in my first question[/quote]

You?re confusing the heck out of me Brandon; go get some sleep and start using periods! :slight_smile:

But, to try to answer your question, it isn?t necessary to balance training exactly within a session. Keep in mind that I?m not always striving for balance in any program, as I?m generally looking to correct some existing imbalance. Most people wind up doing more rows, for instance.

Speed of execution has absolutely nothing to do with biomechanics. The amount of internal rotation is dictated by the starting position of the hands, which indirectly affects the positioning of the humerus.

Cool; looking forward to hearing from you. :slight_smile:

[quote]roc wrote:
Hey EC I know your a big fan of rack pulls, so I was wondering if you could help me out since I would like to start them. I’m having some form issues such as:

  1. When you set up are your shoulders over the bar or behind?[/quote]

I’m over the bar; that tends to be the case with conventional lifters, especially the lighter guys who don’t have a lot of body weight to use to their advantage. Bigger guys and sumo pullers set up further back, typically.

You can use any of a number of settings, depending on the goal.

That’s perfectly fine; we actually recommend it in the NNM series.

I can get you a video of one, if you want to email me: ericcressey@hotmail.com.

You’re doing 100 pushups but only 60 reps of the seated row. Just a trivial difference to the naked eye, but it can add up over time.

External rotations are good for everyone. :slight_smile:

[quote]geekboy wrote:
Coach EC,

LOL I didn’t until I saw Coach AC’s tip…

Anyway, in case I want to row more, where should I put that under the structure below?

And would I be benefit of external rotation?

My goal is to increase sport specific strength for Karate.

Thanks again,

Geek boy

Eric Cressey wrote:
You could probably use a little more rowing, but you can say that of pretty much everybody.

Don’t overthink this. :wink:

geekboy wrote:
Hi coach EC,

Just came across your comment regarding Coach AC’s Cool Tip. So do you think it is functionally right to do the following?

  1. 12 singles of BB bench press @ 70Kg (my 3RM), then 3-4x5 T-bar row at 35kg (my 6RM)

  2. 5x20 BW push-ups then 5x12 seated cable rows @ 60kg (15RM)

  3. 3x8 BB bench press @ 60kg (my 10RM) s/set with with 3x8 DB Bench side row @ 32.5kg.

(My Vert/Push and Vert/Pull volume is small compare to the above)

You see, at 1) my Horz/push is higher than Horz/pull in terms of total weight moved, and 2) is … well, I don’t really know how to balance the volume in this case.

As a WSSB follower, my upper body workout is always similar to (1) and (2) (as upper body ME day and reps day repsectively). Am I setting up a potential shoulder injury?

Thanks in advance for answering.

geek boy

[/quote]

I’m actually doing his meet on November 5, but we haven’t really decided what the plan is beyond that. Russ runs great meets, so I think it’s a very good bet that we’ll be there, especially since my folks’ house is less than an hour away. Looking forward to meeting up!

[quote]Legolas wrote:
Eric: Are you going to do Russ Barlow’s meet in March?

I am planning on being there.

Eric T.[/quote]

It could be several different things. I’d really need to know the nature of the nature and location of the pain and a little more about your training history.

[quote]TunaGill wrote:
Eric,

I’ve been trying to get different opinions on why I always get lower back pain after doing front squats.

I do Olympic lifting, and I usually start out with snatches or overhead squats. Neither causes me any problems. However, once I do squat cleans or front squats, I almost instantly get low back pain (believe me when I tell you that I have good form, so that shouldn’t be the cause of the pain). Stretching my psoas seems to help a little, and I do it often, but the pain never goes away no matter how much I stretch.

I do “no-no-no” squats (front and back), could that be the problem? Lack of ab or lower back strength? I am an attorney, so I sit at a desk all day. I 'm not the most flexible person in the world, but I do have decent flexibility in certain areas (I can do overhead squats with chuck taylors on, no problem)

Any help would be appreciated.[/quote]

You should be absolutely destroying your quads as soon as they can handle it. The quads are to the PCL what the hams are to the ACL. They aren’t as good with PCL repairs as they are with ACL surgeries (don’t do as many), so it’s not uncommon to see surgery avoided. If you can strengthen your quads to take over the burden normally sustained by the PCL, you can get by.

Dashboard-type injury, I assume?

Best of luck!

[quote]novamcglone wrote:
Hey Eric,
I tore my PCL in my left leg a little over two weeks ago, and fortunately the orthopedic specialist said no surgery, just rehabbing it for 4-6 weeks. Can you give me some pointers for things I should avoid and thing perhaps that I should include in my lower body training once I have the green light to train on my own again? Thank you in advance for your time and help, I appreciate it.
-Greg[/quote]

That wraps it up for tonight. Sorry for the delay on my responses; they had some crazy winds here in CT and it knocked out my internet. I’ll catch up to you all next week; thanks for the questions!

Eric

Can you recommend a stretch which can help me to go lower in the squat?

Currently, I can only just go under parallel before my heels have to raise or I have to bend forwards.

I have injured my back several times (even with heel blocks) by ending up with my back parallel to the ground whilst picking up modest weights from the floor.

Check out Mike’s “Hardcore Stretching: Part II” article. Use the lunge hip flexor stretch, ITB/TFL stretch, and finally the calves stretch. In the meantime, you can externally rotate your feet a bit to give you that little extra bit of dorsiflexion you need to get deep.

If you can get a video, I’ll help you troubleshoot.

[quote]savo wrote:
Eric

Can you recommend a stretch which can help me to go lower in the squat?

Currently, I can only just go under parallel before my heels have to raise or I have to bend forwards.

I have injured my back several times (even with heel blocks) by ending up with my back parallel to the ground whilst picking up modest weights from the floor.
[/quote]

Thanks Eric.

Which stretch is the IBT/TFL stretch? I’ve checked the article but I can’t find this mentioned.

I do point my feet out at a 45degree angle which helps, if my feet were parallel then I probably couldn’t lower enough to get my quads parallel to the ground.

On a different note, when deadlifting, how do you lower the bar back to the ground? I’m 6’1, 190lbs and with a 70kg+ bar, my knees get in the way, and I end up bending forward to put it down (this made me bed-bound for 2 days last time) - is there something I’m missing?

Unfortunately, I think heavy romanian deadlifts have weakened/damaged my erector spinae to the extent that I am avoiding picking up anything over 5kg from the ground so it will probably be another month before I am brave enough to try deadlifts this heavy again.

[quote]savo wrote:
Thanks Eric.

Which stretch is the IBT/TFL stretch? I’ve checked the article but I can’t find this mentioned.

[quote]

Here are the two I prefer (found them on the 'net).

#2.

Push your hips back first; don’t try to squat the weight down. It should be a stiff-legged movement until the bar reaches the knees; that’s when you bend the knees to get down to the ground.

If you still can’t get down without rounding over, you need to work on flexibility of your posterior chain even more.

[quote]savo wrote:
On a different note, when deadlifting, how do you lower the bar back to the ground? I’m 6’1, 190lbs and with a 70kg+ bar, my knees get in the way, and I end up bending forward to put it down (this made me bed-bound for 2 days last time) - is there something I’m missing?
[/quote]

Brilliant.

Thanks for your help.

I’ll try all the stretches tonight.

I’m unconvinced as to whether my back is capable of doing proper deadlifts.
Every single time I’ve injured it, I’ve had bent legs and have been leaning forward to rack the weight (good mornings) or place it back on the floor (deadlifts).

Considering most 180lb men wouldn’t even waste their time warming up with only 70kgs, I think it’s an injury waiting to happen (again).