Creepy Guys in Class

Training
21

[quote]Amiright wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

3rd- This is why women should never train with men…Ever. Honestly it is hard to train seriously as a man vs. women. When you roll with them you are not getting a thing out of it. Inevitably the woman is going to complain about unfair treatment of some kind. Men are Men-Women are Women, if you are going to try to train with men be prepared to be dominated or to have guys take it way to easy on you. The best thing for a woman as far as self defense is to get the biggest and strongest guy and tell him to attack you like a rapist for a minute or two and just try to defend yourself, if you can do it then your self defense is good if not you will be raped. If your interest is purely sport BJJ then never roll with men, because they don’t take you seriously.[/quote]

Perhaps its true you get nothing out of it, Mcstoots, but don’t give up. If you keep practicing you will improve with time, and then the girls will take you seriously. [/quote]

Miss Parker I know it is a sexist view but we had the same issue in high school wrestling. It is not fair to have women training with men and definitely not fair to have women compete with men, especially in a combat sport. The women get hurt and the guys dont get good training. This is not at all a constant, but is more often then not how it is.[/quote]

just to be devils advocate :stuck_out_tongue: unlike Texas in Alaska women wrestle with men because there isn’t enough women wrestlers. This girl wrestles in Oklahoma now with a couple of my friends… also women wrestlers.
[/quote]

LOL don’t make me laugh. When that happens in a real state with a lot of wrestlers let me know. I have seen better female wrestlers then her in Ohio. Of course that can happen in Alaska did you see how tiny their “State tournament” was. I invite you to check out the Ohio High School State Wrestling Tourney and tell me how that looks compared to Alaskas. That shit is just comical.

22

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Pch2, everytime you have a problem with a guy you seem to label them as creepy.
[/quote]

I’ll do more specific replies tonite, but what’re you basing this on?

23

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

[quote]Amiright wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

3rd- This is why women should never train with men…Ever. Honestly it is hard to train seriously as a man vs. women. When you roll with them you are not getting a thing out of it. Inevitably the woman is going to complain about unfair treatment of some kind. Men are Men-Women are Women, if you are going to try to train with men be prepared to be dominated or to have guys take it way to easy on you. The best thing for a woman as far as self defense is to get the biggest and strongest guy and tell him to attack you like a rapist for a minute or two and just try to defend yourself, if you can do it then your self defense is good if not you will be raped. If your interest is purely sport BJJ then never roll with men, because they don’t take you seriously.[/quote]

Perhaps its true you get nothing out of it, Mcstoots, but don’t give up. If you keep practicing you will improve with time, and then the girls will take you seriously. [/quote]

Miss Parker I know it is a sexist view but we had the same issue in high school wrestling. It is not fair to have women training with men and definitely not fair to have women compete with men, especially in a combat sport. The women get hurt and the guys dont get good training. This is not at all a constant, but is more often then not how it is.[/quote]

just to be devils advocate :stuck_out_tongue: unlike Texas in Alaska women wrestle with men because there isn’t enough women wrestlers. This girl wrestles in Oklahoma now with a couple of my friends… also women wrestlers.
[/quote]

LOL don’t make me laugh. When that happens in a real state with a lot of wrestlers let me know. I have seen better female wrestlers then her in Ohio. Of course that can happen in Alaska did you see how tiny their “State tournament” was. I invite you to check out the Ohio High School State Wrestling Tourney and tell me how that looks compared to Alaskas. That shit is just comical.[/quote]

Lol I know she isn’t great… the girls I know are levels above her. But it is still a perfectly reasonable counter argument. You said women have no place competing with men… I showed you a state tournament were the man go beat :stuck_out_tongue:

And it won’t happen in big wrestling states because most of them have enough women wrestlers to have that division.

I’m just messing around anyways.

24

If it could have happened in a regular state with a regular population, it seems as though it would have. Maybe a dad will be dumb as fuck and put his little girl on steroids so she can compete with the males in wrestling, then we may see a state champ in a normal state. I had a girl on my wrestling team at the same time I was on it. There were also girls on a lot of other wrestling teams in our area.

They could beat guys no problem there, but once it got serious like leagues/sectionals/ districts they could never cut it. The best one from our area was Becky D’Ambrosia, she was tuff as nails…for a girl. I believe she had a 500 or better record usually but she just could not keep up with the guys that had any skill at all. She was an amazingly technical wrestler just could not hang with the guys. I believe she went on to wrestle in a women’s division after high school but I am not sure.

25

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:
If it could have happened in a regular state with a regular population, it seems as though it would have. Maybe a dad will be dumb as fuck and put his little girl on steroids so she can compete with the males in wrestling, then we may see a state champ in a normal state. I had a girl on my wrestling team at the same time I was on it. There were also girls on a lot of other wrestling teams in our area.

They could beat guys no problem there, but once it got serious like leagues/sectionals/ districts they could never cut it. The best one from our area was Becky D’Ambrosia, she was tuff as nails…for a girl. I believe she had a 500 or better record usually but she just could not keep up with the guys that had any skill at all. She was an amazingly technical wrestler just could not hang with the guys. I believe she went on to wrestle in a women’s division after high school but I am not sure.[/quote]

From my experience, the women that do regularly train with guys (the good ones anyhow, that stick with it) tend to be among the most technical grapplers. They learn very early on that they simply can’t match up from a physical standpoint and thus spend pretty much all of their time focusing on technique and cardio.

26

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

3rd- This is why women should never train with men…Ever. Honestly it is hard to train seriously as a man vs. women. When you roll with them you are not getting a thing out of it. Inevitably the woman is going to complain about unfair treatment of some kind. Men are Men-Women are Women, if you are going to try to train with men be prepared to be dominated or to have guys take it way to easy on you. The best thing for a woman as far as self defense is to get the biggest and strongest guy and tell him to attack you like a rapist for a minute or two and just try to defend yourself, if you can do it then your self defense is good if not you will be raped. If your interest is purely sport BJJ then never roll with men, because they don’t take you seriously.[/quote]

Perhaps its true you get nothing out of it, Mcstoots, but don’t give up. If you keep practicing you will improve with time, and then the girls will take you seriously. [/quote]

Miss Parker I know it is a sexist view but we had the same issue in high school wrestling. It is not fair to have women training with men and definitely not fair to have women compete with men, especially in a combat sport. The women get hurt and the guys dont get good training. This is not at all a constant, but is more often then not how it is.[/quote]

This is better. There is a big difference between pointing out that women are more likely to get hurt when they go hard with men “more often than not” and saying they should never ever train with men and aren’t taken seriously when they do.

I actually have seen it from your side - I occasionally have trained with the 12 & 14 year old sons of one of our schools instructors. These boys are half my size & strength, so of course I could dominate them with no effort at all, if I chose to do so. They even have the body issues some of the women y’all train with will present: they are nervous as cats in a room full of rocking chairs when its time to get into my guard, & when a technique required one of them to push with his hand against my chest, his face got so red I thought his head would explode. And yeah, its weird to train with someone whose body is so much smaller than mine. I am forced to exhibit something called control. No, I would not care to train with them all the time. Sometimes I need to go hard, or my own training will suffer.

But I DO take them seriously - they are there to train and learn just like I am, and I respect anybody who is willing to work hard, regardless of their current level of ability. And I DO get something out of working with them - by focusing just on technique, I am able to improve my technique, instead of muscling through.

I notice you accuse women of complaining of unfair treatment, yet you are the one complaining that its “definitely unfair” because “the guys don’t get good training” when they train with women.

That being said, I also believe that outside of a team environment you should not be required to train with anyone you don’t want to. If I should be allowed to refuse to train with someone, then you should also have that right.[/quote]

Miss parker it is my opinion that they are not taken serious at all when they train with a man. I myself cannot take a woman rolling with me as serious practice at all. But, to put this in perspective I was 215 pounds and she was 125 what the fuck is the point of live rolling when there is that big of a difference. And she would always come and try to wrestle me. Explain to me how that helps me in anyway. I am greedy when it comes to training everything I do better be helping me win more matches plain and simple.

Miss Parker it has been my experience, that women training with men spawn conflicts and trouble. For example this thread about a woman who thinks a guy is “CREEPY” and rolls to hard. Well, if he was a creepy dick and roll’d to hard the other MEN should take care of it. Instead we have a women who is going to tell the guy off and not roll with him, or try to get the guy in trouble with the teacher, or some other bullshit. Also I don’t feel a young boy should be rolling with a grown woman especially in a BJJ class what with the awkward circumstances of the sport. People would get pissed if their little daughters were rolling like that with a “CREEPY” guy.

I wish we could talk with the “creep” about this and see his point of view on things.

I am not complaining of unfair treatment. I am complaining about having to treat women differently then male training partners. The different treatment they(the gym the female) force on you as well as self imposed discretionary treatment. For instance in wrestling I do a move called the cornhole roll, it is where you put a half nelson on the bottom man while they are on their hands and knees then grab their ass or crotch so they stiffen and you can turn them really easily. How do you think that would be for a guy to do to a woman? My coaches never said a thing to me about having done that to other guys. I bet the crowd or the girls parents may have something to say about the issue though. I am the kind of guy that would do that to a girl, there are lots of guys I know that would not do that because she was a girl

In this instance if the woman who started this thread would just take her cue from the other guys in class, and treat this guy how they seem to she would fit in and be just like one of the male trainees. But, no we get a creepy guys in class thread.

27

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:
If it could have happened in a regular state with a regular population, it seems as though it would have. Maybe a dad will be dumb as fuck and put his little girl on steroids so she can compete with the males in wrestling, then we may see a state champ in a normal state. I had a girl on my wrestling team at the same time I was on it. There were also girls on a lot of other wrestling teams in our area.

They could beat guys no problem there, but once it got serious like leagues/sectionals/ districts they could never cut it. The best one from our area was Becky D’Ambrosia, she was tuff as nails…for a girl. I believe she had a 500 or better record usually but she just could not keep up with the guys that had any skill at all. She was an amazingly technical wrestler just could not hang with the guys. I believe she went on to wrestle in a women’s division after high school but I am not sure.[/quote]

From my experience, the women that do regularly train with guys (the good ones anyhow, that stick with it) tend to be among the most technical grapplers. They learn very early on that they simply can’t match up from a physical standpoint and thus spend pretty much all of their time focusing on technique and cardio.[/quote]

I never thought of it that way. That sounds perfectly right to me. They try to make up for the strength and speed by technical superiority and cardio.

28

Its always easy to misinterpret on the interwebz, mcstoots thanks for clarifying…

two quick segways,

I think for heavier bigger grappling athletes strength is a bigger factor, more so in wrestling, then Judo,
then Bjj. Far more so for beginners to Bjj- depend on your style

I competed all the way down at 120-135 so 50 to 60 kg for college and greco, Judo as much as 175 or so
and right now while at close to 190- my gym numbers have always been modest, but on the matt, save for
the odd freak, I never ever felt weaker then whom I competed with.

Corn hole - is bastardized out of Gene Mills half nelson series- great stuff.

no more hijacking.

29

[quote]pch2 wrote:

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Pch2, everytime you have a problem with a guy you seem to label them as creepy.
[/quote]

I’ll do more specific replies tonite, but what’re you basing this on? [/quote]

I don’t usually venture into SAMA because it’s a cess pool of attention whores but since i have a week off and the other sub forums i checked were dead, i decided to venture in.
You made a thread on how a guy who isn’t interested in you is creepy.
Maybe it’s the same guy, i don’t know.

The way you “complain” leads me to believe that anyone who doesn’t conform to your standards would be labeled as creepy or whatnot.

30

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
I don’t usually venture into SAMA because it’s a cess pool of attention whores but since i have a week off and the other sub forums i checked were dead, i decided to venture in.
You made a thread on how a guy who isn’t interested in you is creepy.
Maybe it’s the same guy, i don’t know.

The way you “complain” leads me to believe that anyone who doesn’t conform to your standards would be labeled as creepy or whatnot.
[/quote]

Yea, after wading through half of that other bullshit thread I think the OP needs to calm the fuck down.

Either don’t hang around him, or don’t complain. If your “guy friends” would rather hang out with him than you, maybe they’re all not as close to you as you think.

Women continually amaze me with their bullshit.

31

I couldn’t find that other creepy thread for some reason.

KMC you never hijack, what you say is always interesting.

Mcstoots, we’ll just generally disagree on this I think, & that’s okay. Though maybe this will help: I kind of get the feeling you didn’t know how to tell that woman you didn’t want to roll with her, or she wouldn’t have always been after you to do so. Just smile & say, “I’m sorry, but I really need to work with someone my own size right now.” And of course, the time will always be right now. This is girlspeak for NO. She should get the message after a few times & leave you alone.

A note on creepy: I don’t know what Pch2’s definition of creepy is, but mine is the feeling one gets from someone who is always just a little too intense and doesn’t seem to understand social cues or boundaries. Often this person looks at you in a way that makes you feel like prey. The predatorial aspect is what makes one creepy instead of just weird. It has nothing do with attractiveness (though to be creepy & unattractive is an unfortunate combination). Sadly, people who have conditions like Asberger’s or are just socially uneducated can be mistaken for creepy, but I find that if you give people a chance they will show their better side eventually. Except for the creeps, of course.

Also, rolling hard with smaller partners doesn’t make you a creep. It might make you a bully, or a noob, or reveal you as angry. Or you might be sending a message. But I think the rolling hard issue was just the frosting on the creepy cake for this guy.

What Irish said about having to struggle to hold oneself back from going for the jugular resonated with me. I can very much understand that.

32

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Often this person looks at you in a way that makes you feel like prey. The predatorial aspect is what makes one creepy instead of just weird. It has nothing do with attractiveness (though to be creepy & unattractive is an unfortunate combination).

…

Also, rolling hard with smaller partners doesn’t make you a creep. It might make you a bully, or a noob, or reveal you as angry. Or you might be sending a message. But I think the rolling hard issue was just the frosting on the creepy cake for this guy.
[/quote]

You just described me, and I hardly think I’m a “creep.” I first learned to roll in the Marine Corps, and it carries over. I learned by getting my ass kicked; a couple dozen times getting swept and you learn not to give it to them, a few triangles, and you learn what it feels like and can stop it. I sill learn best when the purple belts are twisting me into knots instead of against smaller partners at my skill level.

With smaller partners, I will talk to them before we roll, and I’m not going to abuse a new student. I will always let up immediately on a tap, and I won’t crank down hard or fast once I’ve got something locked on. However, I’m extremely strong, and I’m not going to let you have a move just because you think you did it right. If you can’t overcome my strength advantage, you didn’t do it right. It’s not to send a message, it’s to train. I’m not paid to be an instructor, so I’m training for my benefit not yours. I’m not angry, I’m not a bully, I’m just looking for a challenge.

As to “looking at you like you’re prey,” this line makes me think you don’t train for competition or self defense. When I have my game face on, the other guy is meat. 100% thousand yard stare. I can turn it off, but why would I do that when I’m training? That’s when I want it on. If you can’t handle training hard against someone as intense as I am I don’t blame you, but then what you’re training for is just recreation. Let’s face it, if someone you see regularly, who has no animosity towards you (unless you didn’t tell us something) can break your will with a look you are not ready for someone trying to break your body.

I don’t condone injuring partners, or being an ass off the mat. People who don’t know where the line is shouldn’t be training. However, if you can’t handle someone who wants to train hard, tell them so that they can find a partner who will give them 100%.

33

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:
Often this person looks at you in a way that makes you feel like prey. The predatorial aspect is what makes one creepy instead of just weird. It has nothing do with attractiveness (though to be creepy & unattractive is an unfortunate combination).

…

Also, rolling hard with smaller partners doesn’t make you a creep. It might make you a bully, or a noob, or reveal you as angry. Or you might be sending a message. But I think the rolling hard issue was just the frosting on the creepy cake for this guy.
[/quote]

You just described me, and I hardly think I’m a “creep.” I first learned to roll in the Marine Corps, and it carries over. I learned by getting my ass kicked; a couple dozen times getting swept and you learn not to give it to them, a few triangles, and you learn what it feels like and can stop it. I sill learn best when the purple belts are twisting me into knots instead of against smaller partners at my skill level.

With smaller partners, I will talk to them before we roll, and I’m not going to abuse a new student. I will always let up immediately on a tap, and I won’t crank down hard or fast once I’ve got something locked on. However, I’m extremely strong, and I’m not going to let you have a move just because you think you did it right. If you can’t overcome my strength advantage, you didn’t do it right. It’s not to send a message, it’s to train. I’m not paid to be an instructor, so I’m training for my benefit not yours. I’m not angry, I’m not a bully, I’m just looking for a challenge.

As to “looking at you like you’re prey,” this line makes me think you don’t train for competition or self defense. When I have my game face on, the other guy is meat. 100% thousand yard stare. I can turn it off, but why would I do that when I’m training? That’s when I want it on. If you can’t handle training hard against someone as intense as I am I don’t blame you, but then what you’re training for is just recreation. Let’s face it, if someone you see regularly, who has no animosity towards you (unless you didn’t tell us something) can break your will with a look you are not ready for someone trying to break your body.

I don’t condone injuring partners, or being an ass off the mat. People who don’t know where the line is shouldn’t be training. However, if you can’t handle someone who wants to train hard, tell them so that they can find a partner who will give them 100%.[/quote]

If someone gives me the thousand yard stare before we train, I’d probably just crack up laughing. Sorry, I’m not trying to be ugly to you, but when it comes to BJJ I do train for recreation. Most people in our BJJ program do (we are really a Krav Maga school), so staring someone down would be seen as silly. The harder guys DO go hard on each other, and that’s cool with everybody. For me, I just think I should be generally comfortable on the ground as a little backup to my main training.

I said going hard on a smaller/weaker student MIGHT make you a bully, etc. I didn’t think I needed to list all the other things it might make you, such as simply someone who wants to go hard and has possibly overestimated the other person’s abilities. Need I go on?

You said you only give the stare in training, you don’t try to injure people, and you’re not an ass off the mat, so how on earth would you be a creep?

Please note that this is not my thread & I wasn’t calling anybody creepy or complaining about anyone going too hard. Several people have asked if the OP thought he was creepy because he: was unattractive, didn’t like her, had Asbergers or autism, poor social skills, or rolled better than her. So I tried to give a general female definition of “creepy”.

The staring/intensity/predator quality is creepy in regular off-the-mat day-to-day interactions. Its rare for people to really behave that way, but women tend to be highly attuned to it because we are the usual prey of choice when a true predator is around.

I wonder if the word “creepy” has been slung around too much in general, though, because in both this thread & the SAMA version it seems like several guys have been really offended.

34

^^It really is hard to quantify creepy to a male perspective. I think it’s hard to understand ‘makes you feel like prey’ in the way Miss Parker meant if you haven’t been vulnerable to it. But I can’t think of a better way to describe it, unfortunately.

35

Okay, so I should have put more thought into my original post and choose my words better because the conversation didn’t evolve at all as I expected it to. I’m pretty far behind, therefore I’m just going to pick and choose points to reply to. I don’t mean to ignore anyone’s points, so if I don’t address something specific that you feel I should, let me know, since this got much more personal than I expected it to.

Oh, and if it makes any difference, the original ‘creepy guy’ has managed to ostracize himself without my input. Most of the guys don’t want him at their houses, and no one chooses him to roll with when it’s free roll time.

36 
 Well, I don't believe we have a hard time understanding creepy. I believe you ladies that use it so much don't know the proper meaning. Also, if we met the "creepy" guy we wouldn't say he was creepy, we would probably come closer to what the actual problem is. Like instead of saying "Man, that guy was creepy" we would say " while Jim was in my guard he looked me straight in the eyes and asked if I wanted to play tummy sticks"  
 
 I just love how all the little girls are getting in here and defending their creepy guy descriptions. Deb and MissParker you are 2 of the little girls. 

 P.S. Debra maybe you wouldn't have to deal with so many creepy guys if you didn't have a picture of yourself wearing such a small amount of clothing as your avatar. But, you do look good in the picture but I have to guess that just draws in the creeps.
37

[quote]Amiright wrote:
Don’t really follow the entire discussion… probably missed some key points. But on the lines of going hard constantly… he may have been a wrestler in his past life… its just how hes wired. I know back when I first started jujitsu that was something I struggled with. I wasn’t trying to hurt anybody and luckily no one was hurt, but I did have aggression issues that I had to work out. [/quote]

I’ve seen that happen a lot, wrestlers roll rougher. In most cases though, they choose to let out their aggression on guys that feel similarly. Also, it tends to only last a few classes. My observation was made after at least a dozen free rolls.

[quote]
Basically shit happens, never know who you’re going to roll with… Imo you should train with anyone that you can, because that’s the only way you get better. I know I’ve gotten better because I’ve been completely dominated by people.

Can you read people based on how they roll… yeah. Maybe he doesn’t get much attention in his every day life and this is how he validates himself… should you avoid him because of fear of injury… imo no.[/quote]

I disagree with you here, in competition one should roll with everyone, but I see no point in everyday training in rolling with people that aren’t there to learn. Granted you should occasionally roll to win, but for the most part it’s about learning. If you’re always rolling to win, you’re always just working your A game. If you’re going to learn you should try new things and open up your game. If trying new things means a broken collar bone, most people aren’t going to try new things. So, you’re not really learning. Then you’re just there to beat up on people?

(I don’t mean you specifically, I mean one but that sounds super snotty.)

38

[quote]mcstoots082 wrote:

[/quote]

Can I ask where you train? If you’d rather not say I understand, but I’m just curious since you’re in Ohio too.

39

[quote]pch2 wrote:
Okay, so I should have put more thought into my original post and choose my words better because the conversation didn’t evolve at all as I expected it to. I’m pretty far behind, therefore I’m just going to pick and choose points to reply to. I don’t mean to ignore anyone’s points, so if I don’t address something specific that you feel I should, let me know, since this got much more personal than I expected it to.

Oh, and if it makes any difference, the original ‘creepy guy’ has managed to ostracize himself without my input. Most of the guys don’t want him at their houses, and no one chooses him to roll with when it’s free roll time. [/quote]

Guys don’t find other guys creepy. We might find them weird, odd, annoying or whatever, but never “creepy”.
And creepy means when someone is eerie. It doesn’t mean they are weird. They instill horror into you.
A creepy guy is a guy who watches you from his window non stop with an odd smile on his face.

And didn’t you say you told all the guys that this “creepy dude” was bothering you?
The reason they might be avoiding him is cause of you, and not of how he is.

40

[quote]ozzyaaron wrote:
I was purposely chucking him in guard and then his way to pass guard was to dig his elbows in and try to crack me open. As I said to him, in comp that’s fine, but in training all that does is make me angry and not want to train with him. [/quote]

Oy, the number of times I’ve both said and heard these words, lol.

[quote] For guys that I’ve seen that are high whites and further on still rolling hard they’re usually highly competitive, generally roll guys less skilled to maintain the illusion they’re good and they never really test themselves. None of our highly skilled guys roll hard unless it’s for comp training, even then… not really.

That’s just what I’ve noticed on the mats. I tend to keep it pretty slow and I want to work on techniques and pick something I’m bad at to work on, especially with higher belts. The good guys will actually give you some tips as you go which is great! The guys that are rolling hard are just competitive and think they’re better than they are generally. They don’t tend to challenge themselves. [/quote]

So then wouldn’t you say that that how they roll once the freshness has rubbed off is an indication of their personality?