Correlation: Rep Range, Fiber Type, and Goals?

Okay this may or may not be a noob question but since I don’t know the answer I am going to swallow a humble pill and ask it here.

I will start about by stating my goal is to be competitive in Powerlifting. With that said I am currently trying to gain weight because I believe based off my ectomorph frame I will see faster gains after I have done so versus staying skinny and doing a powerlifting regimen.

I may befuddle terms here. Power as I understand is force (or strength)X Speed. Therefore Power can be displayed by Strength-Speed; lifting maximal weights as fast as possible, or by Speed-Strength; lifting sub maximal weights as fast as possible and in this case faster than you would have otherwise lifted the Maximal Weights assuming the same amount of individual effort.

Due to the bio mechanics of the lifts:

Olympic Lifting seems to be more about Speed-Strength.
Powerlifting seems to be more about Strength-Speed.
What is Strongman?

*One can always deadlift more than they can lift in the initial pull of the snatch and the clean.

This is assuming proper technique for both disciplines and there is likely overlap between the training regimens of both Powerlifters and Olympic Lifters. By that I mean Powerlifters use the Dynamic Method for Speed- Strength and Olympic Lifters Squat heavy for Strength-Speed.

For the purpose of rep range I am going to assume we are referring to compound lifts that would drain the CNS at heavier weights. Obviously certain muscles would ideally only be trained in a certain way. For instance, one would not need to train for a one rep max in bicep curls because powerful biceps aren’t most people’s goals whereas strong, and typically large or toned biceps are.

1-5 Reps for increasing Power or a 1RM (rather you are using Speed-Strength or Strength-Speed approach or a combination of both).
6-10 Reps for Strength gains.
10-12 Reps for Hypertrophy
12-14 for toning
14+for Muscular Endurance.

While one can have spillover gains, this is conventional wisdom. I also am fairly certain that one cannot simultaneously progress in the extreme of muscle training. For example, my 1RM squat max will not increase while my 5K time decreases.

With overlap on the high and low ends of each bracket.

With that said I initially wanted to train weightlifting. However the learning curve for proper technique left me getting fat from eating so much while not being able to get over the technical aspects of the lift enough to raise the weight for a decent workout. From there I went to power lifting so I bought West Side Barbell Book of Methods and joined a gym that accommodated the equipment.

Initially I made gains as most would beginning a different workout, however I inevitably tapered off.

Looking at the research Louie has done himself, and the research he cites from the Russians there are two baselines that do not apply to me that applied to the Powerlifters, Olympic Lifters, and Track and Field athletes cited in the book. One I am drug free. Two I am not a world class athlete and by that I mean genetically predisposed to be an explosive athlete (nor do I have the training time).

When I think of a world class athlete that competes in an aforementioned Explosive or Powerful sport I think the most successful ones are those who obviously have the time training, may or may not be taking a PED, but also has the genetic predisposition or muscle fiber type for this activity.

Type 1 fibers are fueled by oxygen and slow twitch that are fibers found in endurance athletes and many PT studs in the military.

Type 2A fibers are for moderate activity fibers such as those found to increase strength and hypertrophy like with bodybuilders.

Type 2B are the fastest of the fast twitch and for short duration explosive movements found in Olympic Lifters, High Jumpers, and 100M Sprinters.

I know everyone has a combination of fiber types, but most of a predisposed to a certain kind. I believe I am mostly Type 1 Slow Twitch. I have good relative strength and muscular endurance. I can easily out 20+ pullups and could build up to a marathon faster than I could add 100 lbs to my squat max. I am also an ectomorph for the most part. Despite gaining 50lbs since then, I graduated high school at 6 foot 150.

The other two assumptions I have about fiber type are that we can convert some of our fiber types by lifting certain ways and neglected certain others, but this is a slow process and for the most part we are who we are. My second assumption that as a predominantly Type 1 fiber type, what fast twitch fibers I do have are more likely to be 2A fiber types than 2B. In other words, and from my own experience and I believe the experience of others like me, I think a slow twitch lifter would have an easier time increasing strength, size, or muscle tone versus increasing their vertical jump or Snatch max.

This makes me think that most of what literature and conventional wisdom that is out there that suggests training from the 1-5 rep range heavily to increase a 1RM in a Power or Oly Lift is based on the elite athlete who most likely has predominance of 2B fiber type. While this does make sense, most of us wouldn’t be interested in if the marathon runner found better results for his bench max by going training 1-5 reps or 6-8. However, that does deter myself and many other skinny dudes from wanting to be what we aren’t and that is more powerful.

Going back to my statement that the slow twitch athlete probably has more 2A fibers than 2B. I have found that what raises my MAX on bench and squat is training at the 6-8 rep range versus anything under 5. I say this knowing that I can rep out 225 for 10 versus only being able to do 235 for 4 reps. Now this probably would not hold true for the Snatch or Clean and Jerk as Speed-Strength activities. However, based off my genetics my efforts would most likely be better focused on Powerlifting than Olympic.

I am under know illusion that I will somehow become an elite world class powerlifter, however I believe that the whole rep range research is based off world class athletes and not a maxim. I think the appropriate action is designing the workout regimen based off the goal and fiber type of the athlete.

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
What is Strongman?
[/quote]

You know, this is the only actual question that you asked.

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
What is Strongman?
[/quote]

You know, this is the only actual question that you asked.[/quote]

The question is in the title and doesn’t bare repeating.

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
What is Strongman?
[/quote]

You know, this is the only actual question that you asked.[/quote]

The question is in the title and doesn’t bare repeating.[/quote]

If you want help, and someone is asking you to clarify your position or confusion,

then it actually does bare repeating.

Don’t be a dick.

(It’s “bear”.)

But I am actually confused about what you’re asking. You’re approaching this from a far too… theoretical… angle, using bad theory. Or at least not very good/useful theory.

While I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking, I will say that some things make a lot more sense when you look at it in terms of intensity (percents) and the volume of work done at various intensities. Looking at it optimizing training in terms of fiber types seems to be something of a dead end. And rep ranges themselves don’t seem to correlate well either.

On the other hand, force production, intensities, volume in intensity ranges, time under tension, and frequency seem to yield a lot more useful information.

For me, personally, I’ve gotten my best results by focusing on maximal force production every rep + getting a lot of volume in the 75-85% range + 2-3x a week per movement.

I would say I started out very slow-twitch dominant – I was a middle-distance runner, and then when I did train after that, it was a lot of high-rep bodyweight training – 300 pushups and situps every other day. So, given that base, that’s what I’ve found works best for me for both size and strength.

YMMV, obviously.

Some people are pretty stupid and/or assholes on this forum. Ignore their dumb responses. To answer your question, visit Arnold Schwarzenegger’s website. There is an article addressing this exact issue. I recall 60-70 reps/week is ideal for a good combo of strength and hypertrophy, over 100/week is endurance and less than 50 is strength oriented.

Rest periods over 2 minutes are conducive to strength gains. Anything under 1 minute is generally focused on endurance. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the article as I read it over 6 weeks ago.

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
Some people are pretty stupid and/or assholes on this forum. Ignore their dumb responses. To answer your question, visit Arnold Schwarzenegger’s website. There is an article addressing this exact issue. I recall 60-70 reps/week is ideal for a good combo of strength and hypertrophy, over 100/week is endurance and less than 50 is strength oriented.

Rest periods over 2 minutes are conducive to strength gains. Anything under 1 minute is generally focused on endurance. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the article as I read it over 6 weeks ago.
[/quote]

I’ll be honest, I kind of disagree with all of that. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, but it’s a naive way of looking at it.

I increased my incline bench press 35 pounds over the last two months getting in right around 180 reps per week, training as I described above – maximal force production, most volume in the 75-85% ranges, doing triples, with minimal rest per set. As I got closer to 100%, my rests got longer, but under 85% they’re only 30-45 seconds.

23andme.com previously reported on the type of muscle fibers you were likely to have based on your DNA sample. They also reported on what diet composition your body bests responds to (i.e. protein vs carbs vs fats ratios) however the FDA ruled they are not allowed to report these health based facts any longer (as of late Nov 2013 I believe).

Keep in mind part of becoming stronger is recruiting more (of your previously unengaged) muscle fibers, which may include the type 2s. Generally thinking you have primarily only type 1 fibers and calling yourself an ectomorph is just short changing yourself. Find out how to recruit more of your type 2s. Have you tried plyometrics for example? If you find you can do 225 for 10 but only 235 for 4 then start working on your rep ranges from 1-4 reps.

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
What is Strongman?
[/quote]

You know, this is the only actual question that you asked.[/quote]

The question is in the title and doesn’t bare repeating.[/quote]
Putting a question mark after something doesn’t make it a question. You wrote over 1000 words. Are you really claiming that you couldn’t be bothered to clearly state your question as a question?

My advice:

  1. Figure out what your goals are.
  2. Train in a way that helps you progress towards your goals. (Dithering about fiber types is optional, but definitely not required.)

No one is being a dick, no need to get butt hurt over the internet.

My apologies on how ambiguous this was, let me clear it up a little further. I also realize that it’s pretty theoretical as well.

Essentially what I am asking is that if is if you’re training for the power; be it the Oly Lifts, Powerlifts, Sprint, or High Jump, and you are a slow twitch dominant fiber type by most standards, if you should ignore the typical training protocols for power being the 1-5 rep range?

My reasoning is that the research that is conducted on how lifting heavily in the 1-5 rep range increases the 1RM was more than likely done using athletes who were predominantly Type 2B fiber type of which the Type 1 Slow Twitch athlete has very few of.

My second question is this. From everything I have read, non explosive athletes who are mostly slow twitch, are rarely able to make gains in the Speed-Strength aspect of Power. That is, very rarely do they increase their vertical jump more than an inch or so, and very rarely do they see gains in Olympic Lifts.

From that I am asking if it makes sense to say that if a predominantly slow twitch athlete has any Type 2 fibers, he is most likely to have more type 2A than Type 2B. Thereby making him better suited for Powerlifting being Strength-Speed versus Olympic Lifting being Speed-Strength.

Those tests probably WEREN’T done on people predisposed to lifting heavy things. They are done on most everybody. I know middle distance runners, soccer players, and others who all see more benefit to their 1rm by working in the 1-3 rep range. If you want to train your body to use more muscle fibers, then you train in a way that forces your body to adapt to that training.

If I want to get better at running long distances, I run long distances right? So if I want to get better at lifting 1 rep max, then I need to train for lifting 1 rep max, which means training my nervous system to be ideally suited for that.

[quote]Aero51 wrote:
Some people are pretty stupid and/or assholes on this forum. Ignore their dumb responses. To answer your question, visit Arnold Schwarzenegger’s website. There is an article addressing this exact issue. I recall 60-70 reps/week is ideal for a good combo of strength and hypertrophy, over 100/week is endurance and less than 50 is strength oriented.

Rest periods over 2 minutes are conducive to strength gains. Anything under 1 minute is generally focused on endurance. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the article as I read it over 6 weeks ago.
[/quote]

Oversimplification. Reps/week tells us nothing. There are so many modifiers that change the nature of the exercise that this metric becomes worthless. As an example, Smolov Jr makes use of well over 100 reps/week. Would you call it “endurance” training?

Talk about muscle fibers complicates things without really having a point. Muscle fiber types will vary from person to person and from muscle to muscle and over time. Assuming you’re not into biopsies and surgery, you’re best option to determine what types of fibers you have where is to train and see what types of training methods are effective.

The problem is, the reason you wanted to know what types of fibers you have is to know what types of training methods are effective. So basically, fiber type is an unknown that may be correlated to something that you want to know, but it’s possibly more difficult to determine than the things you wanted to know are to determine directly.

In your example of benching 225 for 10 but only 235 for 4, there are quite a few explanations that I would suggest before suggesting that this says something specific about your muscle fiber type.

  1. Mental block. You think it’s really heavy and psyche yourself out.
  2. Form break down. A relatively small increase in weight may break down some weak link in the chain. Your form and efficiency suffer a huge hit and you get a lot less reps.
  3. Especially good day at 225 and bad day at 235. Six reps is a big difference so this probably doesn’t completely explain the difference, but some workouts are just going to be better than others.

Basically, I would be careful about what you think you know about your body’s muscle fiber types. You do know something about how to train yourself effectively, and I would leave it at that.