Correct form of scapular retraction against scapular winging

I’ve been dealing with scapular winging for a while now. I have it in both sides, but more on the left side.

I think I know how to engage the serratus anterior. However, when I do so, I feel like a “blockage” that doesn’t allow the scapulae to retract and makes my scapulae feel more or less like in a lat spread.

For retracting I tried 2 options:

  1. Force through it (it feels as if there were “obstacles” or “glue”, but still moves), and I don’t feel the scaps touching “each other” as I am used to (in my days doing rows with “bad form” [winging and over-engage of upper traps]).
  2. Let the scaps be “above” the blockage, it feels smoother, the scaps “touch”, but I had to let loose a bit of the serratus. Even so, I am still forcing muscles to “posteriorly tilt” the scap, including I suppose serratus and lower traps.
    That been said, both take me a lot of focus to perform, even though (2.) feels more like when I was doing “bad form”, and from seeing it, it seems that it is the downward rotation of the scaps that allows that.

I’d really appreciate it if anyone knows what I’m dealing with and has some tips for my progress in this moment / is able to notice which of the ways to retract the scaps (1.) or (2.) is the correct one (see videos below).

Here there are video links to both of these:
(1.) https://youtu.be/IYKQV0Yl828
(2.) https://youtu.be/N6V8ImRIExQ

Some extra info:
-I feel my traps on my bad side tight ever since I’ve been trying to row like this. This feeling is present when I protract and when I retract, similar to soreness in biceps, but tight.
-Scapulae anteriorly tilts when I am not consciously using the serratus at least slightly.
-Very weak on retraction when trying technique (1.) on rows (working on it)

Appreciate any responses

@j4gga2. I thought you might be able to help.

@believer423 good timing - I’m lecturing on shoulder rehab & scapular retraining in 5 days

OP, to put it simply, you’re overthinking it. Just row and forget your serratus anterior. If you’re concerned about your ability to activate your middle back, I strongly recommend the chest-supported T-bar row as the least fuck-upable row imaginable. If you feel like your traps are always really tight, make sure you get a big stretch on the eccentric of the row.

The reasons I say this are:

  • The serratus anterior and rowing muscles are antagonists. The serratus will protract the scaps, whilst the traps and rhomboids will retract them. You absolutely cannot (and shouldn’t even try to) feel your serratus when rowing
  • In my clinical experience as a physiotherapist, most people with chronic mid-back tightness never let their traps and rhomboids stretch under load when doing upper body pulls. Getting them to actually let these muscles stretch out generally leads to large and immediate improvements in middle back tightness
  • There is no high-quality evidence to suggest scapular motion is a predictor of injury, nor any evidence to suggest it can even be changed
1 Like

Thank you so much! :smile:

I will definitely this kind of row, and let the traps and rhomboids stretch in my next training session.

Maybe I should’ve added this piece of info to the post, but the reason I am trying to fix scapular winging, and rowing, is because my left scap (more than my right scap) defaults to “move up” while rowing (maybe upper trap dominant?), and it was very hard for it not to do so. My right scap wouldn’t do it to that extent. So then on the eccentric my scaps would be already “up” and when I horizontally adducted (to have my arms in front of me), my scaps would be winging a bit, which wasn’t painful

And the reason I was worried about that is because, when bench pressing (dumbbells, incline and horizontal) or doing push ups, on the way down, the same thing happens, also both sides of my back feel different (left=more “up”).

And why that matters is because I had slight “pain” (not to the point where it limited ROM, I stopped doing the exercise whenever I felt this) in my left shoulder (anterior) while pressing.

And the overthinking comes also from the fact that I see myself row, and other jacked people row, and the scaps look quite different. And I can notice a difference even from the front: I can see my traps “tilt forward” (from my scaps moving up I think) while performing the concentric, while from what I’ve observed, this doesn’t happen to experienced lifters: I can’t see the “shrug up” that I do on horizontal rows, they just keep it “neutral”.

My hypothesis given all of this data was: I have weak serratus anterior and lower/mid traps (hence the winging), and some stabilizers that stabilize “down” rather than “up” also weak. So, weakness on lower/mid traps would make them tight, and my scap of course wouldn’t be able to pass through where I want it because of that tightness, and defaults the “up” way on retraction. What I was trying to do is “force” some muscles (which I assumed to be serratus and lower traps) to make my rowing seem like the ones I’ve seen in other people, and thus work the muscles that need to be stronger to not be tight anymore.
Note: while rowing with this “bad” form I can still “depress” the scaps, but they are still winging off the ribcage. Also, I can see the scaps squeeze together, while when I see jacked people row, their scaps maintain the orientation relative to the ribcage on the retraction motion.
On the video you sent me, I can notice that the upper traps do not “show” or incline forward (I don’t know what the term would be) while performing the row, which happened in my case naturally.

The first time I retracted the scaps in a manner that resembled the “good” form was at the moment of recording those videos, and when I tried something similar on the last training session that involved back. And that’s why I wondered which of the videos had actually “good” form.

I might be wrong in a lot of implications and I might’ve assumed things that are not correct, but this is being an issue for quite some time and I tried different techniques on bench and none of them worked, also tried external/internal rotation work (went to a PT and he recommended this), shoulder mobility drills, and push-up plus for serratus.

Also I might be overthinking everything as you suggested :sweat_smile:

There’s a bit to unpack here. First, could you let us know:

  1. Your age
  2. Your rough height and weight
  3. How many years of focussed lifting you’ve done
  4. Your current program, where you got it, and how long you’ve been doing it for

Of course if that helps, and thank you for your time,

  1. I’m 20.
  2. 5’9 70kg (154.32 lb)
  3. First did 11 months pain-free with a Push-Pull-Legs split, 6 days a week. Then some pain started and lost track for 5 months or so (on and off, inconsistent). Now I’ve been 2.5 months or so doing Push-Pull-Legs only 3 days a week, some of the other days of the week I’m focusing my “workout time” to fix my shoulder problem trying things.
    I don’t do periodization or anything like that, I just try to progress in weight or volume.
  4. The program itself was mostly implemented by what I’ve researched on internet, and recommendations of some friends that are gym goers (experienced, but not excessively). Currently I am not following a fixed “program”, as my shoulder is delicate, but there are some exercises that are invariant between workouts of the same group: for Push I always try to see how I’m feeling on DB incline, seated overhead press, and if my shoulder isn’t annoyed, then I’ll do chest flies and lateral raises, for triceps I do skullcrushers first, and then triceps pulldown; for Pull I always do seated row (cable) with wide grip, facepulls focusing on back (I think there are different ways to target different things), lat pull down (cable), seated row (cable) with narrow grip, and then some exercises to try and fix my scap issues like unilateral row, and finally bicep hammer curls and bicep curls; for Legs, I start with hamstrings (seated or lying), then I go to the hack-squat, bulgarian split squat, calf-press on linear hack squat, and some accessory movement like abductors or adductors at the end (I alternate these).
    As for progression within the program, intra-workout I do a fast warmup for some exercises, getting close to the weight of the first working set, and I do 3 “working” sets with decreasing intensity of RIRs 0,1,1. Bigger picture, I always take note of what I do, and if I don’t progress in weight or volume for 2 or 3 weeks, I try changing something and see how it goes (hasn’t happened yet on back or leg exercises for these 2.5 months).
    In the initial period of 10 months, I did something similar to my current split in terms of exercises, but the progression and diet (had to eat more calories) was really inconsistent, it got better over time.

@Prominens, he’s a Physio so give him whatever information he asks of you. Doubtful you’ll find better advice, especially free of charge.

What’s up with the Internal and External rotation work you did with your PT?

Was your left side way worse at external rotation?

What moves did you do?

Did you make any improvements?