I first read about them in one of Louie’s old articles, I haven’t seen anything of his more recent that mentions them and have only heard of a couple other people using them, and also complaining about sore knees. You are probably right.
My thoughts exactly.
Chris, a lot of this stuff is just plain old trial and error. You could get 15 different solutions from 14 different people.
Bottom line is pick one method that you believe in and run it for 2 cycles of 12 weeks each. The second cycle will show you if it works or not.
You’re right. I’m going to go with rack pulls, starting below the knee and working down. I was initially leaning towards deficit pulls but I think that will just reinforce my current technical problems.
It’s true, it seemed like the speed pulls between sets of isometrics moved slower than they would have otherwise, even though I rested 3 minutes. Josh Bryant said something about it increasing the transfer of the training effect if you do it like that (as opposed to no speed pulls) but I wouldn’t really call it PAP.
Don’t stress pulling monster weights from the pins. Focus on getting your torso more upright. Work on spreading the floor, or driving your feet out to bring your hips forward, or into the bar. When your hips are more forward, your shoulders can be back farther. This keeps your torso more vertical and your back more “stacked” and less “flexed.”
Since you’re starting high, start extra upright.
You can also do partial deads with a conventional stance, above the knee. Like the end of the lift. Keep your back straight, don’t move it, and only push with your glutes. Like “levering” yourself under the bar.
Just remember to keep pressure on the glutes. Don’t try to build the strongest Chris style deadlift from the rack. Use the rack to allow you to exaggerate your position and develop more glute drive.
That’s my plan.
I was planning to start with 85%, that won’t be a challenging weight from the pins.
How exactly do you do those?
There is a video of one of Josh Bryant’s seminars where he mentions those, for bench specifically, apparently he learned it from Charles Poliquin. He said to set the pins at your sticking point and do several reps up to the pins with a moderate weight (70-75% as a starting point, then a maximal isometric contraction on the last rep. I don’t really see the point of the reps before the last one though, maybe I’m missing something.
“Functional,” or “Yielding” Isometric Deadlift:
Pull the bar to your knees. Hold it there. Without moving the barbell, move your body into stronger mechanical position. Hold that position.
You’ll notice the bar is out front because your knees are in the way. So you figure out how to turn the knees out, bring the hips into the bar, get your shoulders back, and get tension off your Lower back. Then you set the bar down. Probably you shimmy your feet, and make adjustments to get better position. Then you pull the bar to your knees and hold it. Without moving the bar, bring your body into better position. Stand up straighter, get the weight onto your legs and hips and off your back.
Do it again until You feel more glutes and your back gets flat. Learn to use more glutes with this simple, dumbed down section of the big move.
Pulling hard into pins is an Overcoming Iso. Max recruitment, max “Drive.”
Yielding or Functional Iso are more about body positioning.
What you’re talking about is a paused deadlift, I thought we already discussed these. I don’t know if you have been following all the posts in this thread, my technique doesn’t look exactly the same as it did in the first video, my hips are more open, but I still get stiff-legged sometimes on heavy pulls and that’s what leads me to believe that glutes are the issue here. There is not much I can do in terms of a more vertical torso or hips open more unless I widen my stance, but that automatically makes me weaker. I’m already having trouble getting the bar off the floor and a wider stance will make that harder. Pause deadlifts are good, but I don’t think that is what I need right now.
In case you missed it, what “good technique” for me looks like with 80%. I’m still shifting the weight to my back and hamstrings, but it could be worse
You already saw the video I recorded yesterday, what do you suggest that I do to improve my starting position?
Alright man, I’m gonna give this one more try.
Your deadlift is stuck. Because your glutes aren’t right.
Widening stance = more glutes.
Widening Your stance makes You weaker cause Your glutes are weak.
Keep the wider stance to develop Your weak glutes!
In a contest, you try to lift the most weight. In training, you develop what you need to develop to lift the contest weight. Don’t think about Deadlifting the biggest weights in your basement! Think about developing your Body!
You may need to lift less now, to lift more later.
You are thinking like Rippetoe. You need to think more like a structural engineer.
If you suck at shooting a basketball, you don’t go play an NBA game. You shoot 100 shots in the drive way.
If you get a flat tire, putting a bigger engine in your car doesn’t make you go faster until you pump up your tire.
You Use a roller to paint big sections of the wall. Then a little brush to get the edges.
If you throw your punches with a limp, cocked back wrist, we Don’t put you in a boxing match. We break things down, go to the bags and teach you to punch with a straight wrist.
I get what you are saying, but I don’t think that simply lifting light weights with a wide stance is the solution. Technique will become more of a limiting factor, as well as other muscles such as adductors which don’t appear to be a problem at the moment.
Direct glute training sounds like the obvious answer, the two options that make the most sense are glute bridges and high rack pulls. Glute thrusts will be a problem to set up, and I would also become the laughing stock of the PL forum. For what it’s worth, Bryce Lewis actually programs glute thrusts for some people, I know a guy who is coached by him and he said that in his first training cycle he was doing them. They were eventually taken out as he felt he wasn’t getting anything out of them, plus he also squats in the 600s and pulls in the 700s. Anyway, seeing as Greg Nuckols used rack pulls to build up his glutes and set all-time records in the squat and total, I’m willing to give it a shot.
If worst comes to worst I can start pulling with my hips even higher, if Dave Ricks is pulling over 700 like that then I should be able to at least get into the 600s.
I’m curious, I looked at your training log and I see you lifting a lot less than me. Are you injured? Have you coached many successful lifters?
I just took a look at Greg Nuckols’ deadlift guide, it provides a good explanation of what is going on here. It also gives a possible explanation to why I sometimes get shaky legs when the bar is at knee level, as this section is dealing with missing sumo deadlifts in the midrange (which hasn’t happened to me yet).
"In general, I find that people who miss through the midrange of a sumo deadlift start the lift with their hips too high. However, this often isn’t a technique flaw; they don’t set up with their hips too high, but rather their hips shoot up and back as they initiate the pull…
…So why would someone wind up in this position?
The most likely explanation is that they have strong hamstrings relative to their glutes and quads. When their hips shoot up and their knees straighten a bit, it puts more tension on the hamstrings, allowing the lifter to rely on their hamstrings to play a larger role in breaking the bar off the floor.
However, once they’ve put themselves in a position that lets their hamstrings aid in the initial pull, they’ve also put themselves in a poor position to drive the bar through the midrange of the lift with an assist from the quads.
Extra glute and quad work tends to help with this problem. Once the glutes and quads get stronger, they can carry out their role of breaking the bar off the floor without needing the hips to shoot up. As soon as the lifter can maintain a good position when the bar breaks the floor, midrange is typically a breeze.
The most direct way to combat this issue is simply to use light enough weights in your working sets that you can maintain good positioning off the floor. If you can keep your hips in a good position with 80% of your 1rm, but your hips start to shoot up at 85%, then do your deadlift training with weights at or below 80%. If you can pull 5 reps with a given weight without your hips shooting up, but they start shooting up on the 6th rep, then do sets of 5 or fewer reps with that weight. Get in a lot of quality reps with proper technique to strengthen your quads and glutes for breaking the bar off the floor."
OK, so the plan is multiple singles with 80%, lower the weight if technique starts to break down. Follow that up with rack pulls. Paused high bar squats and SSB good mornings on my main squat day.
Why would you be a douche bag now? You asked a question about your deadlift on an internet forum and @FlatsFarmer responded with a hopeful solution. Shit like this makes people not want to help you, man.
It’s a fair question.
I’m not injured now, but after an injury(adductor tear) I was stuck in a long, frustrating period, where first I couldn’t make progress. Then I went backwards. Then I got hurt a lot. Mostly adductor strains and issues with a tight psoas. Then immobile hips and a jacked up back. I could deadlift 500 when I was 20, but I couldn’t even deadlift 225 conventional with a neutral spine when I was 35.
I did all kinds of dumb shit trying to get better. Endless clamshell. 1 legged RDLs. Kettlebell swings. Single leg junk. Defecit deads. Snatch grip deads. Deadlifts on the shrug machine. Half Kneeling ab nonsense. Starting really light and going linear, beginner style.
Life without deadlifts.
Then, some helpful dude suggested I implement deadlifts with a hold. After a few training sessions that shit worked!
Now I’ve been able to train and make progress for about a year straight without issues. Including putting 65 pounds on my sumo Rack pull.
I haven’t coached many successful lifters, but I go to the gym with some. Including a former USAPL National Champion, some other power lifters, and some red neck goons who like to lift. The gym hosted Night of the Living Dead, so I’ve seen big deadlifters like Vince Urbank, Andy Bolton and Rich Hawthorne make big lifts in person. I also talk to guys who deadlift and follow the training of guys who deadlift here on TNation.
I don’t see why you’re getting all excited as this has nothing to do with you, but that’s another story. He’s telling me things that conflict with what I’m reading elsewhere, so based on that either there are better approaches than what I’m looking at or maybe I’m better off to disregard his advice. If he was pulling 800 and coaching elite lifters then his opinion would be worth more than that of some guy named Chris who competes now and then and does ugly sumo deadlifts in his basement.
Fair enough. I appreciate you trying to help and everything, I just wasn’t sure if I wasn’t understanding what you are telling me and I have no idea who I’m actually dealing with.
Deadlifts with a hold/pause are a good exercise, my problem isn’t that I’m unable to get into the correct positions but rather that with heavier weights I’m shifting the load from my glutes to my hamstrings. With a lighter weight that I could pause with for several seconds there isn’t going to be much actual transfer to heavy sumo pulls, I have used those enough to know that their benefits are limited for me. I did isometrics for the last month, I will see if they paid off, but at this point the only solution that I can see working is to train low reps with weights that challenge my technique but don’t make it break down and also work on my glutes with rack pulls. If you have any suggestions for specific glute exercises then I would be glad to hear.
Functional Isometrics
Josh Bryant is one of the smarter Strength Coaches, as is Poliquin.
As your described above, place a pin low in the Power Rack for the bar to sit on. Then place a pin a few inches above the low pin in the Power Rack.
Load the bar. Then pull the loaded bar into the pin and hold it. That is a “Functional Isometric”.
Each set, progressively increase that bar weight and pull it into the top pin.
Sticking Point Position
The sticking point where the bar stop moving isn’t the real sticking point.
Car Analogy
When you run out of gas in your car, where car end up stopping isn’t where you ran out of gas. That because the momentum of the car take it farther down the road before it come to a complete stop.
Essentially, the same is true with a lifter sticking point. Thus, you need to position the bottom pin a little below you sticking point, where bar stop moving.
With that said, the most effective method of training your sticking point is to work it a little below, right at where it stop and a little above.
Reps Before That Last One
Reps before the last one are a warm up. Do whatever get you there.
Obliterate Your Sticking Point
This is a great article by Josh on Isometric Training.
One of the interesting parts pertains the program you wrote…
“Isometric/CAT Contrast Method”
As per Bryant, “…you combine isometrics with dynamic or explosive work”, which you are doing.
Hollie Evette
Evette was a National Powerlifting Champion and is a Strength Coach. Evette introduced me to Functional Isometric years ago.
I continue to integrate Functional Isometric and Isomeetrics into my training program at various time. They are an effective tool for overcoming your sticking point.
In performing Isometric Deadlift Training, it helped me overcome my sticking point just below my knees. My new sticking point then move to just above my knees.
Here are a good article on Functional Training…
Continuum Training
Thibadeau (as are Bryant and Poliquin) is a very creative and progressive Strength Coach. .
The Ultimate Strength Exercise
Isotonic-Isometric Contraction, part II
This is a good article by Bill Starr. Since the 1960’s, Starr was an advocate of Isometric and Functional Training.
Bill Starr was one of the best Strength Coaches that lived (he passed away a few years ago).
Kenny Croxdale
Wide sumo with a 1" deficit with light weight (50% so you can keep the hips turned out) for high reps without touching the floor (massive time under tension. Do three sets like this to failure (requires brass balls) and let us all know what your glutes feel like.
Post-Activation Training
It is defined as performing a "Limit Strength Exericise, resting, then performing a Power and or Speed Movement, resting and repeating.
Sub Categories of PAP
1 Complex Training
Complex Training utilizes two different exercise that are similar.
Squat Example
a) Limit Strength Movement: Heavy Belt Squat with a load of 80% plus of your 1 Repetition Max for 1, maybe 2 Repetition.
b) Power Movement: Moderate Load (48 -62% of 1 Repetition Max) Bench Press for 1 - 2 Repetitions.
Bench Press Exampl
a) Limit Strength Movement: Heavy Dips, same protocol as with Squat on Repetition and Load.
b) Power Movement: “Plyometric Bench Press” (touch and go) with same protocol as Squat on Repetitions and Load/
“Deadlift Training” Example
a) Limit Strength Movement: Heavy Good Morings, as protocol as with Squats.
b) Power Movement: Hang Olympic High Pull.
The above Complex Training Exercises are some of the ones the I use that work.
2 Contrast Training
It involves using the same exercise for your Heavy “Limit Strength” Movement with the same “Power” Movement.
Squat Example
A Heavy Squat with 80%plus of your 1 Repetition Max, rest, then followed by a Power Squat with a Moderate Loaf of 48-62% of your 1 Repetition Max.
Bench Press Example
A Heavy Bench Press with 80%plus of your 1 Repetition Max, rest, then followed by a Power Bench Press with a Moderate Loaf of 48-62% of your 1 Repetition Max.
Deadlift Example
A Heavy Deadlkift with 80%plus of your 1 Repetition Max, rest, then followed by a Power Deadlift with a Moderate Loaf of 48-62% of your 1 Repetition Max.
The Goldilocks of Your Heavy “Limit Strength” Exercise
Your Heavy "Limit Strength Exercise Set needs to be heavy enough to elicit more force production in your Power or Speed Exercise.
However, if your Heavy “Limit Strength” Exercise is too heavy it dampens (decrease) the force production of your Power or Speed Exercise.
At times, I have been overzealous with my Heavy “Limit Strength” Exercise, which killed my force production in my Power Exercise. In other word, there was NO Power.
Auto-Regulation
Based on your years of training, you probably can “Read the signs”, you know when to push it and back off.
The more you employ Post-Activation Potentiation Training, the better you get a “Reading the signs” and knowing how heavy to go with your "Limit Strength Exercise so that it evokes the right response for your Power or Speed Exercise, rather than killing or dampening it.
Car Analogy
Training is a lot like driving a car. Let say you are going 40 mph and you see a red light ahead.
Based on your experience, you have a feel for how much pressure to apply to the brake as you near the red light to stop.
As with everything, the more you do it the better you get with it.
Kenny Croxdale