Contreras on Assisted Lifters

Training
61

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]Waylon wrote:
Bret was “called out” as being weak, not because he randomly entered a meet and had pretty mediocre numbers, but because he wrote a book called “2x4 The Most Effective Training Program for Maximum Strength and Muscle.”

I think it’s perfectly fair, and this something Tate has written about, to ask what qualifies a person to be an expert in the field of strength and conditioning. I think this is even more true when talking about claims made about being an expert, let alone the “Most Effective”, in a particular discipline. I have read much from Bret that I like, and much where I feel he is way out of his depth. If you are going to write a book like that and are neither strong, nor have any claim to coaching others to be strong, expect criticism. Some of these criticisms are probably a bit harsh, but accurate nonetheless.

It makes matters much worse when the videos of his lifts show rather poor technique even for a intermediate lifter, let alone a coach/trainer/author.

Bret has gotten some flak in the past about his numbers and always replies with - I’m tall, levers and such. No one wants to hear it. Again, if he could claim more than knowing strong lifters (many of whom probably are assisted), like have produced results in others, even if he himself were not strong, he would have some ground to stand on. He is really just being called out for making claims that have no merit.[/quote]

This is one of the better and well thought out criticisms of Contreras in this thread. However, I do want to point out something: Contreras is strong. Maybe not in the world of powerlifting, but his numbers are better than what most will ever achieve. I think sometimes people get so immersed in this sub-culture that they forget what regular people are like. And I’m not talking about couch potatoes, I’m talking about normal people who go to the 24 Hour Fitness gyms and dutifully hoist iron on a regular basis. I have never seen one of these guys pull a 600 pound deadlift. I have never seen one of these guys do a 400 pound squat. I can count on one hand the times I have seen one of these guys press 300 pounds. Again, these are not powerlifters or even college athletes, they’re just regular guys.

As to Contreras never having trained an elite powerlifter, well, what is more impressive, helping many regular people improve their numbers beyond what they could do on their own, or helping a handful of assisted, genetically elite lifters improve their numbers. They are both impressive, but in different ways. Just as Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich may be the best coaches for professional basketball players, they may not be the best coach for a high school team or even a college team.

I don’t know anything about Contreras’s 2x4 program, I’m just saying the fact that he’s not strong by powerlifting standards or hasn’t trained anyone strong by powerlifting standards should not be considered prima facie evidence that his program sucks.
[/quote]

In this thread…

Who has called Bret weak compared to regular gym goers? Is it not easily understood that these critisms were in the context of powerlifting?

Who has said he can’t train regular guys?

Who has said his program sucks? The only time his program was brought up was in contention of the title claiming to be “The Most Effective Training Program for Strength and Muscle”. I didn’t even know he wrote a book before this.

Since you agree that he is not strong by powerlifting standards, what are you arguing about?

62

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:
This is one of the better and well thought out criticisms of Contreras in this thread. However, I do want to point out something: Contreras is strong. Maybe not in the world of powerlifting, but his numbers are better than what most will ever achieve. I think sometimes people get so immersed in this sub-culture that they forget what regular people are like. And I’m not talking about couch potatoes, I’m talking about normal people who go to the 24 Hour Fitness gyms and dutifully hoist iron on a regular basis. I have never seen one of these guys pull a 600 pound deadlift. I have never seen one of these guys do a 400 pound squat. I can count on one hand the times I have seen one of these guys press 300 pounds. Again, these are not powerlifters or even college athletes, they’re just regular guys.

As to Contreras never having trained an elite powerlifter, well, what is more impressive, helping many regular people improve their numbers beyond what they could do on their own, or helping a handful of assisted, genetically elite lifters improve their numbers. They are both impressive, but in different ways. Just as Phil Jackson and Gregg Popovich may be the best coaches for professional basketball players, they may not be the best coach for a high school team or even a college team.

I don’t know anything about Contreras’s 2x4 program, I’m just saying the fact that he’s not strong by powerlifting standards or hasn’t trained anyone strong by powerlifting standards should not be considered prima facie evidence that his program sucks.
[/quote]

I think this is an excellent post.[/quote]

really?saying your “method is the most effective way to build strength and muscle” without ever really building any significant strength or muscle in yourself or others is pretty laughable. as far as i am aware his book is marketed at powerlifters. noone gives a shit if hes strong compared to the average gym goer, that doesnt give you the right to be a self proclaimed authority on strength. its like saying " oh i can jump higher than my grandmother, i am now the world’s leading authority on explosive power"

being “stronger than average” doesnt mean youre strong. the average person is fucking weak

" I’m just saying the fact that he’s not strong by powerlifting standards or hasn’t trained anyone strong by powerlifting standards should not be considered prima facie evidence that his program sucks."

if hes been around for as long as bret has,with no results, its a fair thing to say that he is not someone to go to for strength

63

[quote]Yogi wrote:
Going to have to disagree with you on a few points there Pantherhare.

You say that it’s more impressive that Bret helps ordinary people improve their numbers than a genetically gifted, assisted powerlifter, but that’s not a fair comparison. If he’d trained ordinary people to achieve elite numbers, then that’d be worth bragging about.

I agree that forums like this give you an unrealistic picture of how strong average gym users are, but I still don’t think you could really say that Bret is strong enough to give credence to his 2x4 system. Stronger than average, yes, but certainly not so strong that you would buy his book, IMO.

If his program could turn people into elite powerlifters, why hasn’t it done the same for him? And I don’t want to hear that shite about leverages.

For what it’s worth, I actually really like Bret Contreras, but I’ll never do 2x4…[/quote]

I didn’t say it was more impressive, I said that both were impressive.

I don’t think he’s claimed that his program will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters (I could be wrong). Contreras is a regular joe. All of the best trainers in the world couldn’t turn an average joe (or Contreras) into an elite powerlifter. You have to be born with at least that potential.

64

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:
I didn’t say it was more impressive, I said that both were impressive.

I don’t think he’s claimed that his program will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters (I could be wrong). Contreras is a regular joe. All of the best trainers in the world couldn’t turn an average joe (or Contreras) into an elite powerlifter. You have to be born with at least that potential.[/quote]

I may be misunderstanding you on this, so I want to clarify.

Are you stating that one achieving elite status in powerlifting is evidence of their genetic superiority? As in, the only people that can have an elite total are genetically advantaged trainees, and therefore, anyone who totals elite must have above average genetics?

65

[quote]Dianaballs wrote:

its like saying " oh i can jump higher than my grandmother, i am now the world’s leading authority on explosive power" [/quote]

Bit of a straw man, don’t you think?

[quote]Dianaballs wrote:
being “stronger than average” doesnt mean youre strong. the average person is fucking weak [/quote]

That’s not consistent with the definition of “average.” If the average recreational weight lifter is weak, then what is a below-average recreational weight lifter? How about an average couch potato?

[quote]Dianaballs wrote:
if hes been around for as long as bret has,with no results, its a fair thing to say that he is not someone to go to for strength[/quote]

That was my point, is that he has had results. If a 600+ deadlift, 400+ squat, and 300+ bench press are not results where you live, then you must live in Sparta or some other mythical land.

66

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

I may be misunderstanding you on this, so I want to clarify.

Are you stating that one achieving elite status in powerlifting is evidence of their genetic superiority? As in, the only people that can have an elite total are genetically advantaged trainees, and therefore, anyone who totals elite must have above average genetics?[/quote]

Yes. Obviously just having above average genetics won’t get you there by itself. There’s hard work, dedication, and intelligent programming. But yes, my position is that you must have above average genetics to get to that level. No different than any other sport. To reach elite levels, you must have some God-given abilities.

67

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
Going to have to disagree with you on a few points there Pantherhare.

You say that it’s more impressive that Bret helps ordinary people improve their numbers than a genetically gifted, assisted powerlifter, but that’s not a fair comparison. If he’d trained ordinary people to achieve elite numbers, then that’d be worth bragging about.

I agree that forums like this give you an unrealistic picture of how strong average gym users are, but I still don’t think you could really say that Bret is strong enough to give credence to his 2x4 system. Stronger than average, yes, but certainly not so strong that you would buy his book, IMO.

If his program could turn people into elite powerlifters, why hasn’t it done the same for him? And I don’t want to hear that shite about leverages.

For what it’s worth, I actually really like Bret Contreras, but I’ll never do 2x4…[/quote]

I didn’t say it was more impressive, I said that both were impressive.

I don’t think he’s claimed that his program will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters (I could be wrong). Contreras is a regular joe. All of the best trainers in the world couldn’t turn an average joe (or Contreras) into an elite powerlifter. You have to be born with at least that potential.[/quote]

yes, but wouldn’t it be MORE impressive and you’d be more likely to buy that person’s book? I don’t think increasing an average joe’s numbers is all that impressive really. Certainly not worth reading a book about.

Perhaps he never claimed that his book will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters, but wouldn’t that be the purpose of reading a book about powerlifting? Why wouldn’t you want to read that book instead?

And I do believe that a regular joe can achieve an elite powerlifting total. Very much so.

68

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

I may be misunderstanding you on this, so I want to clarify.

Are you stating that one achieving elite status in powerlifting is evidence of their genetic superiority? As in, the only people that can have an elite total are genetically advantaged trainees, and therefore, anyone who totals elite must have above average genetics?[/quote]

Yes. Obviously just having above average genetics won’t get you there by itself. There’s hard work, dedication, and intelligent programming. But yes, my position is that you must have above average genetics to get to that level. No different than any other sport. To reach elite levels, you must have some God-given abilities.
[/quote]

Don’t you feel this argument falls victim to circular reasoning? You essentially create your own evidence by refuting any evidence to the contrary as support of your own argument by saying that the very definition of superior genetics includes “one who becomes elite”.

69

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:

Don’t you feel this argument falls victim to circular reasoning? You essentially create your own evidence by refuting any evidence to the contrary as support of your own argument by saying that the very definition of superior genetics includes “one who becomes elite”.[/quote]

I don’t think so. I didn’t say all people with superior genetics are elite. What I’m saying is that all elites are genetic superiors. Do you see the distinction?

70

I was actually addressing that specific line of thought in my above post.

71

[quote]Yogi wrote:

yes, but wouldn’t it be MORE impressive and you’d be more likely to buy that person’s book? I don’t think increasing an average joe’s numbers is all that impressive really. Certainly not worth reading a book about.

Perhaps he never claimed that his book will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters, but wouldn’t that be the purpose of reading a book about powerlifting? Why wouldn’t you want to read that book instead?

And I do believe that a regular joe can achieve an elite powerlifting total. Very much so.
[/quote]

I agree it would be more impressive if he’d trained some elite lifters. I disagree that a book for making regular joes better (eg Stuart McRobert’s Brawn) is not worth reading.

I don’t understand why people think making an elite total is achievable for average joes. For example, you wouldn’t think that about bodybuilding would you? I don’t think anyone for a minute doubts that every elite bodybuilder is genetically gifted. Why is it different with powerlifting?

72

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I was actually addressing that specific line of thought in my above post.[/quote]

I apologize then, maybe the impending long weekend is making me slow. I’m just not understanding your post then. I don’t see how my line of thought is circular.

Let’s try again. All German Shepherds are dogs. Not all dogs are German Shepherds. A dog must have certain characteristics (jaw, nose, etc) to be considered a German Shepherd.

Just like all elite powerlifters are people with above average genetics for lifting. But not all people with above average genetics for lifting are elite powerlifters. A person with above average genetics for lifting must have certain characteristics (discipline, intelligence, etc.) to become an elite powerlifter.

73

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I was actually addressing that specific line of thought in my above post.[/quote]

Just like all elite powerlifters are people with above average genetics for lifting. [/quote]

This is the part that is circular. You are employing your conclusion as a premise to support itself.

74

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:

yes, but wouldn’t it be MORE impressive and you’d be more likely to buy that person’s book? I don’t think increasing an average joe’s numbers is all that impressive really. Certainly not worth reading a book about.

Perhaps he never claimed that his book will turn regular joes into elite powerlifters, but wouldn’t that be the purpose of reading a book about powerlifting? Why wouldn’t you want to read that book instead?

And I do believe that a regular joe can achieve an elite powerlifting total. Very much so.
[/quote]

I agree it would be more impressive if he’d trained some elite lifters. I disagree that a book for making regular joes better (eg Stuart McRobert’s Brawn) is not worth reading.

I don’t understand why people think making an elite total is achievable for average joes. For example, you wouldn’t think that about bodybuilding would you? I don’t think anyone for a minute doubts that every elite bodybuilder is genetically gifted. Why is it different with powerlifting?
[/quote]

I didn’t mean that a book for making regular joes better wouldn’t be worth reading, although that is kind of what I said. I meant that if I wanted to read a book to get my powerlifting total up, it wouldn’t be a book aimed at increasing an average joe’s numbers. If I am given two books, one of which will make me better, and the other will make me elite, which should I read?

An elite level bodybuilder is winning nationally ranked shows, whereas not everyone with an elite total is winning powerlifting competitions. I’ll wager there are many more elite totals than there are elite level bodybuilders. The two are too different and the word “elite” means different things in each context, so the comparison doesn’t work.

75

I think part of the problem here is the word “elite.” In powerlifting a certain total at a certain body weight qualifies one as “elite,” even though they may not be elite by the common definition of the word.

I have long used the idea of 2xBW squat, 1.5xBW bench, and 2.5xBW pull to define the very bottom of what I would call strong in the world of serious lifters, even if this is far from strong in the world of powerlifting. Brets numbers are right around here, as are mine. Bret has more formal education than I and has worked with a decent number of reasonably successful figure athletes. When Bret wrote a book about the research he conducted on glutes, I didn’t bat an eye. When Bret wrote a book with programming aimed at physique improvements for women, I thought it was perfectly acceptable.

When Bret wrote a book on getting strong as fuck on the powerlifts, or articles on this site where he talks about how to get really strong, I balk. Bret, and many others, are writing articles and books about subjects they are not experts on. If Bret wants to explain strength training principles to, and put a general fitness client on 2x4, I have no problem. When someone starts using their internet presence to market things that are out of their realm of expertise, I have a problem.

76

[quote]Waylon wrote:
I think part of the problem here is the word “elite.” In powerlifting a certain total at a certain body weight qualifies one as “elite,” even though they may not be elite by the common definition of the word.

I have long used the idea of 2xBW squat, 1.5xBW bench, and 2.5xBW pull to define the very bottom of what I would call strong in the world of serious lifters, even if this is far from strong in the world of powerlifting. Brets numbers are right around here, as are mine. Bret has more formal education than I and has worked with a decent number of reasonably successful figure athletes. When Bret wrote a book about the research he conducted on glutes, I didn’t bat an eye. When Bret wrote a book with programming aimed at physique improvements for women, I thought it was perfectly acceptable.

When Bret wrote a book on getting strong as fuck on the powerlifts, or articles on this site where he talks about how to get really strong, I balk. Bret, and many others, are writing articles and books about subjects they are not experts on. If Bret wants to explain strength training principles to, and put a general fitness client on 2x4, I have no problem. When someone starts using their internet presence to market things that are out of their realm of expertise, I have a problem.[/quote]

you basically said what I was trying to say, but way better! lol

77

[quote]Waylon wrote:
I think part of the problem here is the word “elite.” In powerlifting a certain total at a certain body weight qualifies one as “elite,” even though they may not be elite by the common definition of the word.

I have long used the idea of 2xBW squat, 1.5xBW bench, and 2.5xBW pull to define the very bottom of what I would call strong in the world of serious lifters, even if this is far from strong in the world of powerlifting. Brets numbers are right around here, as are mine. Bret has more formal education than I and has worked with a decent number of reasonably successful figure athletes. When Bret wrote a book about the research he conducted on glutes, I didn’t bat an eye. When Bret wrote a book with programming aimed at physique improvements for women, I thought it was perfectly acceptable.

When Bret wrote a book on getting strong as fuck on the powerlifts, or articles on this site where he talks about how to get really strong, I balk. Bret, and many others, are writing articles and books about subjects they are not experts on. If Bret wants to explain strength training principles to, and put a general fitness client on 2x4, I have no problem. When someone starts using their internet presence to market things that are out of their realm of expertise, I have a problem.[/quote]

QFT

On another note, props to Paul Carter for defending some comments directed his way. I don’t have a dog in that particular fight but when celebrities join in the discussion, I think it’s better all around. It keeps the ad hominem attacks from forum regulars to a minimum AND it also tells celebrities that their writings and actions should be held accountable.

So when I read some author spew things like “I’m above all that forum trash talk” I can’t help but wonder if he’s just using this as an excuse. I’ve read some good stuff on this site over the years and I’ve read utter garbage that just puts the author’s name out there or keeps it relevant.

If someone writes an article or publishes a book that claims he built a better mousetrap, he’d god damn better be willing and able to defend why.

78

Im gonna have to agree here.

I did 4-5 cycles over about a 2.5 year period.

Im currently eating identical calories/training program to when I was on 1g test/wk about a year ago. I am 8kg’s (thats about 17 pounds) lighter, and significantly weaker. Nothing else in my life has changed.

No, taking steroids do not make you look like Ronnie Coleman. But if you have 5+ years experience, and understand training and nutrition then the version of you ON steroids .v. the version of you OFF steroids will be light and day different.

Stop lying to yourselves.

79

[quote]monatu wrote:
Im gonna have to agree here.

I did 4-5 cycles over about a 2.5 year period.

Im currently eating identical calories/training program to when I was on 1g test/wk about a year ago. I am 8kg’s (thats about 17 pounds) lighter, and significantly weaker. Nothing else in my life has changed.

No, taking steroids do not make you look like Ronnie Coleman. But if you have 5+ years experience, and understand training and nutrition then the version of you ON steroids .v. the version of you OFF steroids will be light and day different.

Stop lying to yourselves.[/quote]

Epic post. Much win. Doesn’t not correlate to the article at all

80

[quote]monatu wrote:
Im gonna have to agree here.

I did 4-5 cycles over about a 2.5 year period.

Im currently eating identical calories/training program to when I was on 1g test/wk about a year ago. I am 8kg’s (thats about 17 pounds) lighter, and significantly weaker. Nothing else in my life has changed.

No, taking steroids do not make you look like Ronnie Coleman. But if you have 5+ years experience, and understand training and nutrition then the version of you ON steroids .v. the version of you OFF steroids will be light and day different.

Stop lying to yourselves.[/quote]

what an absolute donkey. Steroids make you stronger? Really? OH MY GOD!!!