Confused on Increasing Vertical Jump

Training Powerlifting
81

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
the formula as applied to Kelly Baggett and Squat DR, both 5’9" guys. Kelly looks long, but Squat Dr has average propprtions

Squat DR - I believe he has a 600+lb oly squat. 600 x 0.43 = 258lb high catch power snatch
258 divided by 210lb (BW) = 1.23
1.23 x 39 = 48 inch VJ

He said he can touch the top of the BBall square (11’6") off a standing vertical jump, with a standing reach of 7’5", and can get his head to the rim at least off a run, at 5’9" so it sounds about right :slight_smile:

Kelly Baggett

He said he squatted around 400lbs or a touch over at 160-165lb bodyweight - I don’t know the exact number when he was jumping at 42 inches. He told me a long time ago he power snatched 165lbs from the hang with minimal dip to get under it

but 0.43 x 405 = 174
(174 divided by 160) x 39 = 42.4 inch VJ

that’s pretty much Kelly Baggett’s real vertical :D[/quote]

amazing formula. its about spot on for me. interesting to see how it works for others. nice work.

AC

82

When I mentioned high catch power snatches in my “formula”, it was more as an indicator of explosive strength deficit rather than something you need to do to jump higher.

My thinking was, if you can propel an object around 40 inches into the air that’s around your bodyweight in load, that shows the potential to jump that high as well. And you need a certain level of strength to do that

Most people will power snatch 43% of a full oly squat 1RM with a high catch and good bar speed if they have decent explosiveness

That’s how I thought up the formula, and just observing myself and other people I know.
It should be spot on for guys around 5’9" who do a decent amount of jumping, have good technique and have been squatting enough, so the strength levels are stable.
And also if no “weaknesses” and deficits are present. If not you know what to do :slight_smile:

83

I have to agree this formula is spot on for me, so lesson learned :slight_smile: You da man.

5’8.5"
150 lbs bodyweight
300 lbs full squat

((300 * 0.43) / 150) * 39 = 33.5

Or for us, european folks 85 centimetres, exactly how much I jump

84

[quote]mldj wrote:
I have to agree this formula is spot on for me, so lesson learned :slight_smile: You da man.

5’8.5"
150 lbs bodyweight
300 lbs full squat

((300 * 0.43) / 150) * 39 = 33.5

Or for us, european folks 85 centimetres, exactly how much I jump[/quote]

get your squat up to 400lbs and bodyweight to 155lbs from the usual muscle mass gain, and you will have a 43 inch vertical jump :stuck_out_tongue:

85

Holey hell has this crap gotten scientific. Anyone else on this thread been around long enough to remember Skybound?

OP, if you’re still around, functional basketball jumping ability is most often about your ability to levitate from an imperfect plant as opposed to a static or even running firm plant. Think about the second jump on a rebound or adjusting around a block out and jumping with 75% of your weight on one foot. Add to that the speed with which you get off the ground often determines who actually gets the ball.

Back in my playing days (mid to late 90’s) there wasn’t nearly as much information available as we have today. We did lunge walks up and down the gym and squat jumps up a sledding hill. Went from a 23" vert to a 36" in a year and half. But, the thing that helped my game the most was doing about 500 body weight full ROM calf raises/night every night. In my opinion that’s where the real bang for your buck comes from. You will be quicker off the floor.

Just my two pennies.

86

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
But, the thing that helped my game the most was doing about 500 body weight full ROM calf raises/night every night. In my opinion that’s where the real bang for your buck comes from. You will be quicker off the floor.
[/quote]

Please just stop right there. This has been a surprisingly good thread so far. Let’s not bring the endless bodyweight calf raises and miraculous vertical leap gains into this thread.

87

jtrinsey,
While I appreciate the response, it would be helpful to note that nowhere did I credit “endless bodyweight calf raises” for a “miraculous vertical leap gain”. I said that most of my gains (and for that matter my teammates’ gains) came from endless plyometrics up a sledding hill. There are many ways to improve vertical leap: go run stadium stairs, do plyo’s, squat, do weighted lunge jumps, etc… BUT

The must USEFUL gains I ever made were the ones from doing calf raises as they dramatically increased my quickness off the floor. I believe the OP was looking for advice on functional vertical leap that would carryover to a specific sport. As a basketball coach I would rather have a guy that had a 28" inch first jump and a 25" second jump anyday over a guy who had a 36" first jump and a 22" second jump.

Don’t believe me…watch a game and count how many rebounds or shots are taken with a full, explosive and perfectly planted and distrubuted jump. It will be a very very small percentage.

Anyway, overall jump training is extremely important and I have seen guys improve from doing only squats and have seen guys improve without ever setting foot in the weightroom.

88

1.) 23" to 36" is, by my definition, a miraculous improvement in 18 months for anyone other than maybe a high school freshman. You seemed to imply that 500 calf raises (which to me is an “endless set”) was the reason for that.

2.) Where are all these guys with great vertical leaps who can’t jump twice in a row?

3.) Think about this for a second. Say the average rebound requires a 22" jump. I’m pulling that out of thin air but that doesn’t matter in this instance. Now who do you think will be more likely to grab that rebound, the guy who can jump 25" or the guy who can jump 36"? Let me tell you that the guy who jumps 25" might be “quick off the floor” but the guy who can jump 36" is going to grab that rebound every time because to him a 22" jump is nothing- just an easy effortless jump while the 25" guy is jumping close to his max.

Put it another way. I can touch over 11’ from the stand, without any steps. So how much effort does it take for me to jump up and touch the rim? About none. So put me up against a guy who can touch 10’4" and I will wipe the floor in a repetitive “rim jumping” contest, no matter how “quick off the floor” he is, because touching the rim requires such a lower percentage of effort for me.

I’m not trying to be rude here but misinformation on improving the vertical leap is rampant on the internet and the majority of it comes from people who relate stories about how [insert random exercise] improved their vertical a thousand inches back in high school.

89

I appreciate the debate here jtrinsey. Let me respond to a few of your points here:

  1. I saw quite a few guys make 10+" improvements, but they did so with solid programs that we used at the time. Miraculous no, but definitely gut wrenching work. Not to mention, these guys were built to jump also, long femurs short torso.

  2. I’m not pointing out an absense of guys that jump well twice in a row. Rather, I’m pointing out guys like Antawn Jamison who have been known for their quickness off the floor on the second jump. On a more common level, I routinely see undersized centers and fowards (6’2" to 6’4") lead in rebounding because they are able to get back up off the floor multiple times in a row with great efficiency.

  3. I agree with your assessment on this point. Most rebounds are not won with maximal effort. In fact, they are won with a jump that is performed from force that is created against an imperfect base. Neurally efficient calves provide a great base for the quads, glutes and hams to fire against. And they provide the final spring if you will that creates rapid seperation from the ground. Hence, why I would rather have on my team the more neurally efficient athlete that recreate force rapidly.

Lastly, I agree that there is an abundance of misinformation on the internet. If for some reason it wasn’t clear in my original post that the calf raises were meant to augment what ever jump training the op chose to do, that was my intent. My continued belief is that most basketball players would see the most immediate benefit from improving their quickness off the floor. It takes time (18 months is half a career for a high school player) to really see good gains in jumping ability.

But I have no doubt that the op could combine the programs listed on this thread with some solid calf work and see results that made him a better jumper AND a more effective player.

90

jtrinsey: actually, i think i kind of know what this guy is talking about. BUT, the ability he is talking about is actually something i credit to having strong abs/hips rather than calves. my belief in this is purely based on some empirical observations:

when i was in hs i was 6’2" 225, only “weights” i did were bench, hammer strength upper body, and endless abs. typical high school stuff. after a month or so off from bball i came back and noticed that i felt like i was really getting off the floor quickly, particularly on 2nd and 3rd jumps. my vertical wasn’t any higher, but i still felt much more athletic and more explosive, if that makes sense.

fast forward a few years, now 6’4" 275. i played pick up ball over spring break for the first time in a long while. had been training westside-style for a while with what i thought were good results. while my actual VJ is several inches higher now. i don’t feel as explosive off the floor, it’s like i cant jump as quickly as i used to (once again i’m hoping this makes sense).

sooo, i’m displeased with this as i don’t feel as athletic as i used to. i start changing up my training with the help of someone. part of this programming includes high volume of abs: 400-600+ every day, and these aren’t crunches! stuff like hanging leg raises (my favorite), hanging toe touches, v-sit ups, roman chair sit-ups, etc., etc. so, anyway, i go play some ball i few weeks ago and notice i’m back to feeling as quick off the floor and what not as i did in high school, except now i’m 2 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier lol!

i just feel like running and jumping are “easier” when i do this ab training like this. it’s not that i’ve improved my vj by much (though did have a PR the other day) but just my ability to express it. a couple of months ago a high effort jump felt “hard” to do but now that is not the case. obviously the other differences in my training factor in, but it’s an interesting coincidence.

figure with strong abs/hips i’m not losing any kinetic energy through the body’s weak point (base of the spine), so my body is moving more efficiently.

also, i don’t think i’ve ever done in any direct calf training, except maybe doing quick jumps on the balls of my feet for 50-60 jumps at a time while wearing ankle weights when i was 10-12yo. the fact that i never really trained calves plus noticing the difference in high ab volume vs. low ab volume is what i base this theory on

91

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
jtrinsey: actually, i think i kind of know what this guy is talking about. BUT, the ability he is talking about is actually something i credit to having strong abs/hips rather than calves. my belief in this is purely based on some empirical observations:

when i was in hs i was 6’2" 225, only “weights” i did were bench, hammer strength upper body, and endless abs. typical high school stuff. after a month or so off from bball i came back and noticed that i felt like i was really getting off the floor quickly, particularly on 2nd and 3rd jumps. my vertical wasn’t any higher, but i still felt much more athletic and more explosive, if that makes sense.

fast forward a few years, now 6’4" 275. i played pick up ball over spring break for the first time in a long while. had been training westside-style for a while with what i thought were good results. while my actual VJ is several inches higher now. i don’t feel as explosive off the floor, it’s like i cant jump as quickly as i used to (once again i’m hoping this makes sense).

sooo, i’m displeased with this as i don’t feel as athletic as i used to. i start changing up my training with the help of someone. part of this programming includes high volume of abs: 400-600+ every day, and these aren’t crunches! stuff like hanging leg raises (my favorite), hanging toe touches, v-sit ups, roman chair sit-ups, etc., etc. so, anyway, i go play some ball i few weeks ago and notice i’m back to feeling as quick off the floor and what not as i did in high school, except now i’m 2 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier lol!

i just feel like running and jumping are “easier” when i do this ab training like this. it’s not that i’ve improved my vj by much (though did have a PR the other day) but just my ability to express it. a couple of months ago a high effort jump felt “hard” to do but now that is not the case. obviously the other differences in my training factor in, but it’s an interesting coincidence.

figure with strong abs/hips i’m not losing any kinetic energy through the body’s weak point (base of the spine), so my body is moving more efficiently.

also, i don’t think i’ve ever done in any direct calf training, except maybe doing quick jumps on the balls of my feet for 50-60 jumps at a time while wearing ankle weights when i was 10-12yo. the fact that i never really trained calves plus noticing the difference in high ab volume vs. low ab volume is what i base this theory on [/quote]

It looks like maybe the conditioning aspect of 4-600+ reps may have been what helped the most.

I think Jtrinsey is arguing against what AJ implied, which at first glance was that doing 500 calf raises a day will increase your vertical 10+inches.

A high vertical jump will help you get off the floor, in most cases I think you will win the battle of the boards but it doesn’t always mean you will have the highest second and third jumps. A good example was Kenyon Martin before he got hurt. Theres a drill where they see how many times you can dunk the ball catch it dunk it again, Kenyon was much better at it then people who jump higher then him such as Vince Carter.

92

aj,

I think you make some fair points although I still disagree with a few things; perhaps it is an “internet misunderstanding” where we might agree if we spoke about this in person but are getting things confused due to the medium of communication. A couple things:

1.) Realize that it is very easy to get things misunderstood on the internet. So when you start talking about how 500 calf raises are going to give someone the most “bang for your buck”, I think that most high school kids are going to immediately assume that they are more important than squats.

2.) As far as creating “neurally efficient calves” go, doing sets of 500 bodyweight calf raises is not the way to go. First of all, it has been my experience with the athletes in my training program that, for the most part, the kids with the strongest calves tend to be the least reactive and certainly not the quickest off the floor. Now this has a lot to do with body structure; the build for strong calves (large muscle belly, low insertion point) is the opposite build that favors reactivty (high insertion, long lower leg). However, look at athletes who are known to be “springy and reactive” and tell me what their calves look like. For the most part they are dense little tennis balls way up by the knee, they are certainly not impressive from a musculature standpoint. Does this mean that getting your calves strong is not important? Not at all, it just means that building big, strong calves should not be anywhere near the primary aim of a strength training program.

Furthermore, the type of strength that is built by doing extremely high rep, low weight sets is endurance-strength. This is on the complete opposite range of the spectrum from reactive strength, which is what helps one to be “quick off the floor.” All you are going to get from doing 500 calf raises (aside from any initial strength benefits for an athlete with little training experience) is some nice red fiber conversion.

I do think that strength in the calves and plantar flexors is important. However, I think it is important because that isometric strength builds a base upon which reactive strength can be built. And here’s my thing: show me a guy who can squat 365, regularly drags a sled and regularly performs jumping drills and I’ll show you a guy who can calf raise a truck. So the isometric strength is already there. With that type of athlete I am focused more on building reactive strength via pogo jumps, stiff-legged depth drops, bounds, etc.

3.) I am going to sound like a broken record here but a 13" gain in vertical leap is the difference between not being able to touch the rim and being able to 360 dunk. I’d say that’s a huge difference. To throw that around as expected gains over an 18-month period is irresponsible. If you were able to consistently reproduce that with high school athletes you would be the wealthiest personal trainer in America.

4.) I do not want to sound like an ass, but are you speaking from the experience of having actually systematically trained athletes in the real world? Or are you recollecting memories which may or may not be accurate from your high school days or perhaps are the coach of a basketball team and relying on incomplete data to form your opinions?

93

[quote]duck_dodger23 wrote:
figure with strong abs/hips i’m not losing any kinetic energy through the body’s weak point (base of the spine), so my body is moving more efficiently.
[/quote]

That is something I buy much more easily especially since having seen a direct (although not drastic) correlation between improvements in an athlete’s reactive strength and overall body control and improvements in core and abdominal exercises that are largely static such as bridge or dead bug progressions with the athletes I work with.

94

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
A high vertical jump will help you get off the floor, in most cases I think you will win the battle of the boards but it doesn’t always mean you will have the highest second and third jumps. A good example was Kenyon Martin before he got hurt. Theres a drill where they see how many times you can dunk the ball catch it dunk it again, Kenyon was much better at it then people who jump higher then him such as Vince Carter.
[/quote]

That may also be because of a height/reach advantage by Kenyon, not too mention that he had a pretty incredible vertical himself.

This is why Yao Ming will outrebound Danny Granger any day of the week despite the enormous disparity in vertical leap. This is why coaches are in love with height/reach, it is a lot easier to go back up on a “second jump” when your hands are already 9 feet high.

On a side note: If you want to get better at jumping repetitively, then you should probably be doing exercises where you jump repetitively. Pogo jumps, hurdle hops, bounds, even old-school “rim jumps” are all stuff that we do. These are not new ideas. Kurz talks about the ability to develop specific jumping endurance in “Science of Strength Training” by jumping multiple times (in work:rest ratios dictated by your sport) to a target several inches below your best vertical leap performance. A simple application of these ideas shows their utility when compared to other, more complex and indirect methods.

95

I read something about the lower leg and its main purpose in explosive and reactive movements and what was said is that a long achilles tendon tends to make athletes naturally more reactive (dunno if thats true but it sounds legit). From what I have read the ability of the calf to stabilize under a load can be a limiting factor in explosiveness (speed/vertical) so as long as the calves are strong enough to stabilize under a load then the rest of the chain (quads, hamstrings, glutes) will have a base to apply force through. I’ve heard people use heavy eccentric calf raises to build stability in this area, but maybe the act of jumping regularly should build this up…

96

jtrinsey,

  1. I definitely get your point here. Perhaps I chose words a bit ineffectively.

  2. I’m fairly certain I agree with all of your points here. The reactive training you mention is certainly an upgrade to simple calf raises.

  3. I would say your assessment on a 13" improvement is about spot on. Just to clarify, I never claimed that I could recreate my vertical leap improvements. In my original post, I mentioned my personal increase only as a frame of reference to say that “the thing that helped my game” the most was the calf raises. I was very careful in choosing the word game so that others would not think that I meant that they improved my vertical jump. Again I think the misunderstanding here is from the medium of communication.

  4. This is a great point and I do not think that you are being an ass. I am both a coach and a former player, and do not systematically train athletes. But as a coach, I am responsible for the end result which is winning games. So I do have a vested interest in getting my athletes to be effective on the field of play.

I appreciate the spirited back and forth here and don’t think that we disagree on a whole lot.

97

aj,

As is usually the case, I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree. I wish more sport coaches took the time to actively investigate performance training instead of criticizing it or thinking they already know what to do.

I only harped on the 13" improvement thing because all of the advertising on the internet and in magazines has created unrealistic expectations for kids. They try a smart, balanced program and make good progress, gain a few inches on their vertical and then once progress stalls for a week or two they get sucked into the Air Alert-esque hype machines and there goes any chance of continued long-term progress. I realize what you are trying to say, I just wanted to make sure things were clear to younger kids who may be reading this thread.

98

AJ as a coach can you train athletes to listen?

How would you rate this trait with running, jumping and skill?

Just wondering I know its off topic, but some people think its up to coaches to teach this while others think its just the kids.

I’ve seen people like corey maggette who was very athletic but not all that skillfull at duke succeed because he listened to the coach while others with more skill, or athletecism not succeed.

99

Air,
I’m not sure if I have ever directly taught them to listen. My approach is to give them accountability. For instance, if I have a guy who is my team’s weak spot when it comes to securing the defensive glass, I make him count and record all the offensive boards that we gave up and who was responsibile when we watch film. The weak spot usually corrects itself within a game.

Somehow, this process drives home a point and I usually don’t have any problems with players not listening. I’m not sure how I would rate it, but I’ll say this:

Give my five guys who can run, jump and shoot and I’ll give you a show. Give me five guys who can run, jump, shoot AND accept leadership and I’ll give you a state championship.

100

Air,
Sorry, just read my post and it sounded a bit boistrous. Didn’t intend that. The point I’m intending to convey is that it is extremely rare to find a group of athletes that are both talented and are willing to accept leadership. Teaching one individual the ability to accept leadership is much easier when you create an enviornment of leadership and accountability.