[quote]LoRez wrote:
But what about the lighter people who claim that it’s not fair, because they actually weigh more and they’re only able to do it because they’re skilled at manipulating their weight? That they’re just skilled at “cheating the system”.
There’s a certain segment of the anti-TRT, and really, anti-whatever, crowd that makes that same argument.
Personally, my take is that if you’re adhering the the actual letter of the law, it’s perfectly acceptable. If the law/rules are “unfair”, then petition for them to be changed, but the actual verbiage should be the final say.
If things are phrased to say that no substances were ever used, in any capacity, then it’s one thing. If things are phrased to say that certain hormonal levels do not exceed certain thresholds, as tested within a window around the date of competition, it’s another.
I don’t consider it cheating if you’re in literal compliance with the rules, even if some people think that the “idea/intent” of the rules should be more broad.[/quote]
I feel like we are having to discuss two different terms here. Fairness and Cheating are not necessarily being related. Many things can be unfair but not be cheating.
I don’t think I have ever in my life seen a fair competition. Someone always has some sort of advantage that the other people don’t. They’re either bigger, stronger, faster, or better.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I feel like we are having to discuss two different terms here. Fairness and Cheating are not necessarily being related. Many things can be unfair but not be cheating.
I don’t think I have ever in my life seen a fair competition. Someone always has some sort of advantage that the other people don’t. They’re either bigger, stronger, faster, or better.[/quote]
I think that’s a good way to put it, and I think most people conflate the two ideas.
Regarding the actual thread title: “Competing on TRT, Qualify as Natural Lifter?”, my answer is… it depends on how the rules define natural. If you’re in the tested division, pass the tests, and the rules specify that “passing the test” is considered “natural”, then I have no issue.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I feel like we are having to discuss two different terms here. Fairness and Cheating are not necessarily being related. Many things can be unfair but not be cheating.
I don’t think I have ever in my life seen a fair competition. Someone always has some sort of advantage that the other people don’t. They’re either bigger, stronger, faster, or better.[/quote]
I think that’s a good way to put it, and I think most people conflate the two ideas.
Regarding the actual thread title: “Competing on TRT, Qualify as Natural Lifter?”, my answer is… it depends on how the rules define natural. If you’re in the tested division, pass the tests, and the rules specify that “passing the test” is considered “natural”, then I have no issue.
Even if it may be perceived as unfair.[/quote]
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I feel like we are having to discuss two different terms here. Fairness and Cheating are not necessarily being related. Many things can be unfair but not be cheating.
I don’t think I have ever in my life seen a fair competition. Someone always has some sort of advantage that the other people don’t. They’re either bigger, stronger, faster, or better.[/quote]
I think that’s a good way to put it, and I think most people conflate the two ideas.
Regarding the actual thread title: “Competing on TRT, Qualify as Natural Lifter?”, my answer is… it depends on how the rules define natural. If you’re in the tested division, pass the tests, and the rules specify that “passing the test” is considered “natural”, then I have no issue.
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[/quote]
Could have been bad phrasing on my part, since that’s not what I mean.
If the rules define “normal” as “being within ‘normal’ range [as defined by lab XYZ], as tested within a 10 day window of the competition”:
As long as you meet the criteria (even if they never test you), I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
If you don’t meet that criteria (even if they never test you), I don’t think it’s acceptable.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I feel like we are having to discuss two different terms here. Fairness and Cheating are not necessarily being related. Many things can be unfair but not be cheating.
I don’t think I have ever in my life seen a fair competition. Someone always has some sort of advantage that the other people don’t. They’re either bigger, stronger, faster, or better.[/quote]
I think that’s a good way to put it, and I think most people conflate the two ideas.
Regarding the actual thread title: “Competing on TRT, Qualify as Natural Lifter?”, my answer is… it depends on how the rules define natural. If you’re in the tested division, pass the tests, and the rules specify that “passing the test” is considered “natural”, then I have no issue.
Even if it may be perceived as unfair.[/quote]
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[/quote]
Couple things here.
USAPL expressly forbids using exogenous test. You can still pass the test and be cheating. That’s one of the reasons they also reserve the right to polygraph. Idk how the backwater feds handle this.
You can use test suspension, for example, and pass a screen later the same day. Savvy cheaters will tell you it is very easy to pass a WADA test. So by fed rules, “passing the test” alone does not necessarily mean you are clean.
I said more or less the same thing in the last thread, but I really don’t get why this is a complex issue. Don’t cheat. Abide by the friggin rules of the fed. Competition is a VOLUNTARY ACTIVITY. It is not akin to living in society, where you might be able to advance reasonable arguments for ignoring certain laws with which you disagree. There is no argument here. If you disagree with the rules, compete elsewhere.
People who bring the putative cheater’s athletic ability, or likelihood of placing well into the discussion are missing some critical piece of basic ethical understanding. That has zero to do with the question at issue.
"USAPL Drug Testing Policies
Competition in USAPL is limited to lifters who have not used any form of strength
enhancing drugs or hormones for 36 months prior to the specific meet date, and
who have not used prescription diuretics or psychomotor stimulants during the 7
days prior to the specific meet date. "
"USAPL Drug Testing Policies
Competition in USAPL is limited to lifters who have not used any form of strength
enhancing drugs or hormones for 36 months prior to the specific meet date, and
who have not used prescription diuretics or psychomotor stimulants during the 7
days prior to the specific meet date. "
I guess that rule me out of the USAPL.[/quote]
That’s interesting. I signed a paper when I joined USAPL swearing that I was a “lifetime” drug free lifter. I wonder if “lifetime” drug free is a separate category.
"USAPL Drug Testing Policies
Competition in USAPL is limited to lifters who have not used any form of strength
enhancing drugs or hormones for 36 months prior to the specific meet date, and
who have not used prescription diuretics or psychomotor stimulants during the 7
days prior to the specific meet date. "
I guess that rule me out of the USAPL.[/quote]
That’s interesting. I signed a paper when I joined USAPL swearing that I was a “lifetime” drug free lifter. I wonder if “lifetime” drug free is a separate category.
[/quote]
I know NASA has a “lifetime drug free” category, but they have a category so that everyone at a meet gets a prize.
Like another poster suggested, check the rules of the fed in which you lift. I’ve had people contact me about medications on the WADA banned list and there is a process in our fed, and, I’m assuming, most others, whereby you can apply for a therapeutic use exemption.
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[/quote]
Could have been bad phrasing on my part, since that’s not what I mean.
If the rules define “normal” as “being within ‘normal’ range [as defined by lab XYZ], as tested within a 10 day window of the competition”:
As long as you meet the criteria (even if they never test you), I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
If you don’t meet that criteria (even if they never test you), I don’t think it’s acceptable.[/quote]
This is why the issue of honor or integrity is brought up.
Because if a competition has such a single lousy method of testing, and I was a fuckhead and really wanted to win, I can juice my brains out in the months to days prior and still be able to fall in normal range on competition day without a drop in strength. Very easily.
[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Like another poster suggested, check the rules of the fed in which you lift. I’ve had people contact me about medications on the WADA banned list and there is a process in our fed, and, I’m assuming, most others, whereby you can apply for a therapeutic use exemption.
[/quote]
How many of the tested/raw feds will give a therapeudic use exemption for TRT?
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[/quote]
Could have been bad phrasing on my part, since that’s not what I mean.
If the rules define “normal” as “being within ‘normal’ range [as defined by lab XYZ], as tested within a 10 day window of the competition”:
As long as you meet the criteria (even if they never test you), I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
If you don’t meet that criteria (even if they never test you), I don’t think it’s acceptable.[/quote]
This is why the issue of honor or integrity is brought up.
Because if a competition has such a single lousy method of testing, and I was a fuckhead and really wanted to win, I can juice my brains out in the months to days prior and still be able to fall in normal range on competition day without a drop in strength. Very easily.
[/quote]
Sure. But if you meet the criteria of the rules, as written, I have no issue with that.
For instance in the “have not used in any form in the previous 36 months”, it wouldn’t meet the rules.
[quote]ouroboro_s wrote:
Like another poster suggested, check the rules of the fed in which you lift. I’ve had people contact me about medications on the WADA banned list and there is a process in our fed, and, I’m assuming, most others, whereby you can apply for a therapeutic use exemption.
[/quote]
How many of the tested/raw feds will give a therapeudic use exemption for TRT?[/quote]
I have no idea. I’m not part of our doping control committee. It’s better to go through the process and, maybe, sit out for a while if you’re using and can’t get a t.u.e.
[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Saying it like that sounds like you think as long as you don’t get caught, its ok.
[/quote]
Could have been bad phrasing on my part, since that’s not what I mean.
If the rules define “normal” as “being within ‘normal’ range [as defined by lab XYZ], as tested within a 10 day window of the competition”:
As long as you meet the criteria (even if they never test you), I think it’s perfectly acceptable.
If you don’t meet that criteria (even if they never test you), I don’t think it’s acceptable.[/quote]
This is why the issue of honor or integrity is brought up.
Because if a competition has such a single lousy method of testing, and I was a fuckhead and really wanted to win, I can juice my brains out in the months to days prior and still be able to fall in normal range on competition day without a drop in strength. Very easily.
[/quote]
Sure. But if you meet the criteria of the rules, as written, I have no issue with that.
For instance in the “have not used in any form in the previous 36 months”, it wouldn’t meet the rules.
But in other cases and wordings, it might.[/quote]
Oh ok. I didn’t see it as a hypothetical situation where one is defined as “natural” as long as his levels are normal. I was under the assumption the ban on exogenous substances would still be in place. You are right.
But that would basically make it an open meet where heavily assisted competitors only have to lower dosages 2 weeks prior to the meet to qualify within the 10 day window lol.
Lets be honest in reality most respectable Docs who put people on TRT. Are not giving anything close enough to be anywhere near a PED level. I think allot of uniformed people think someone on TRT is going to somehow add 30 lbs of lean muscle and 200 lbs on a total over someone else with a normal test level. Most guys who go on might notice a slight improvement in recovery and how they feel over what they did pre treatment.
[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Lets be honest in reality most respectable Docs who put people on TRT. Are not giving anything close enough to be anywhere near a PED level. I think allot of uniformed people think someone on TRT is going to somehow add 30 lbs of lean muscle and 200 lbs on a total over someone else with a normal test level. Most guys who go on might notice a slight improvement in recovery and how they feel over what they did pre treatment.[/quote]
None of this is relevant.
The fact that this kind of consideration is ethically irrelevant is actually the whole point.
read the rules; if exo T is banned then don’t compete in that fed or category
if allowed but loading restricted through measured serum levels, then stay w/i the safe zone and all is OK.
a whole lot of you overact to the whole TRT thing; therapeutic dosages (inherent in the concept of test replacement therapy) are at least a full order of magnitude lower than a typical PED cycle.
statistically those on TRT like me are 40+, probably 45+. I’m not competing against (nor would I stand a chance) against you young guys at the peak of your strength. It just seems to me some of you are inventing fictitious TRT villains.
TRT is far from Natural. Injecting Test into your body is not your natural state. I am on it and will only lift open. When I found out that most of the federations around me would not let me lift natural I was pissed. Then I looked at my before trt and after 1 year of trt pictures and thought . . . they have a point. I would not want to be in a natural league and get 2nd to someone that drank 2 gallons of green tea to pass the t/e test.
[quote]bulldog9899 wrote:
Lets be honest in reality most respectable Docs who put people on TRT. Are not giving anything close enough to be anywhere near a PED level. I think allot of uniformed people think someone on TRT is going to somehow add 30 lbs of lean muscle and 200 lbs on a total over someone else with a normal test level. Most guys who go on might notice a slight improvement in recovery and how they feel over what they did pre treatment.[/quote]
None of this is relevant.
The fact that this kind of consideration is ethically irrelevant is actually the whole point.[/quote]
It’s a good thing that my statement wasn’t meant as a ethical stance.