I go to University of Virginia, and did their lifting program for a month (my roommate played for three years). Honestly, it’s pretty similar to a Waterbury program. They incorporate a little more explosive lifts, like cleans, but otherwise, they stick to the money lifts and vary up the set/rep scheme each day while working out three times a week. We have some major league hosses here . . . Howie Long’s son Chris came in looking pretty skinny, and having seen him out tonight, he’s a hell of a lot bigger than his father ever was in the NFL. I can probably hunt down what I did on the UVa program in my workout journal if any of oyu all are interested
Lots of coaches have athletes lift safely (PSU) to not become injured. Also, many of these S&C coaches just learned from who taught them. It sounds like it is a vicious cycle at Penn State. I think the Nautilus salesman has a little too much influence on some people.
I remember that The University of South Carolina had their football players using the Smith machine and leg press . . and they wondered why they would get blown off the ball. They don’t do this with Spurrier however, thank God. These guys have to have great recovery systems. Getting up at 5:30 to lift, school, back in practice for 2 hours or more, probbaly not going to bed till midnight. I have seen the Miami routine and it almost looked like a fake as it would run even Arnold into the ground.
This is pretty unrelated really but I’m throwing it out so people can make comments fi they feel to - with what people have said re: genetics, one of my friends is relatively muscely purely through genetics, he’s never done weights or anything before, i know a few people like this that at school - used to do sport an stuff (and were good) but that was hte extent of it.
Some of these guys who are naturaly just muscely lol, go to uni or whatever and get involved with a sports team and hence forced, proper training (eg regulated an at certain times etc), an they have developed into pretty monstrous guys in a relatively short time. They look BIG considerin they only r eally have done weights for under a year. (I mean I’ve been trying to bulk up an have been trying to eat right (tho not overeat) for ages but I dont have the size of them…
I think genetics and natural sporting prowess followed by informed and regimented training make the key improvements - I mean think how much progress you might of made immediately if the very first weights program you followed all those years ago was a Waterbury program from here and a correct eating plan.
I’m also a PSU alum. In fact I was just in the weightroom about 4 months ago. We had a High School combine at Holuba Hall and did the bench test next door in the weightroom. It was terrible. Even my HS kids that I train couldn’t believe the machines when they saw them. A lot of the machines were older than the kids??!!
Thomas is an egomaniacal idiot who doesn’t know whether his ass is bored or punched. Rumor has it that he unofficially banned Zatsiorsky from the facility. Zatsiorsky is head of Biomechanics over there. There are several other S&C guys who have PSU degrees who he has outright banned from the room. A lot of them were sent off to Rec hall or the new White building from what I hear.
Buoycall, I’d be interested in seeing the UVA program you used. I graduated from Virginia in the late 90’s and I’m impressed with the recent gains made under Coach Groh, and have heard that the S&C program is real solid now.
Also, does anyone know how college football teams handle nutrition generally? I know that the strength and size goals are different for a lineman as opposed to a receiver or D-back. How do they keep the skill players so lean while still getting them stronger? Is it mainly the fact that these guys are extremely genetically gifted, or do they have a particular nutritional approach?
At Oklahoma State we have a “training table” for meals. Three meals a day with additional snacks the players can take home. Very nutritious, with lots of protein and calories. Some players (for example overweight linemen) will be restricted on what they can eat (i.e., no desert) but basically its all-you-can eat. The alloted budget for the “training table” this year was one million dollars.
[quote]dyoder16 wrote:
I’m also a PSU alum. In fact I was just in the weightroom about 4 months ago. We had a High School combine at Holuba Hall and did the bench test next door in the weightroom. It was terrible. Even my HS kids that I train couldn’t believe the machines when they saw them. A lot of the machines were older than the kids??!!
Thomas is an egomaniacal idiot who doesn’t know whether his ass is bored or punched. Rumor has it that he unofficially banned Zatsiorsky from the facility. Zatsiorsky is head of Biomechanics over there. There are several other S&C guys who have PSU degrees who he has outright banned from the room. A lot of them were sent off to Rec hall or the new White building from what I hear.[/quote]
Dyoder, you’re absolutely right in what you heard. The head strength coach, John Thomas, has indeed “banned” Zatsiorsky from the football facilities, and was extremely opposed to me taking one of Zatsiorskys courses. He has Paterno convinced that any lifting besides machines is dangerous, so Paterno fully supports his HIT propaganda.
And one other delightful quality of his: If a player is caught doing any outside lifting at another gym, as my teammate/roomate was, you get “awareness training”, which is basically however long it takes going on the versa-climber to make you puke, every morning at 6 a.m., for 3 months straight. What a joke…
Lots of the skill players are just shredded and eat whatever looks good at the all you can eat buffets. This means fried foods. They may eat 1 big meal a day. With the weights of some linemen they have to eat everything in sight as well. It should be noted that they all work very hard and burn so much off and yes, genetics play a role (although I think that is a lazy answer). I remember when there was a creatine scare (don’t ask) several years ago some schools decided to ban it. For all the millions spent on college football you would think each team would try to cross every T and dot every i, but they don’t. Also, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that many football players are actually slower and weaker than they were 2o years ago.
[quote]JoeHman wrote:
Buoycall, I’d be interested in seeing the UVA program you used. I graduated from Virginia in the late 90’s and I’m impressed with the recent gains made under Coach Groh, and have heard that the S&C program is real solid now.
Also, does anyone know how college football teams handle nutrition generally? I know that the strength and size goals are different for a lineman as opposed to a receiver or D-back. How do they keep the skill players so lean while still getting them stronger? Is it mainly the fact that these guys are extremely genetically gifted, or do they have a particular nutritional approach? [/quote]
[quote]OKLAHOMA STATE wrote:
I played college football for a year at Oklahoma State as a walk-on. The scholarship players are INCREDIBLE natural athletes. My freshmen class included RW McQuarters, the All-Pro CB. RW had never lifted weights seriously in his life, yet could easily bench at least 275 as an 18-year old and could easily do sets of 5 with 315 on the squat. Again, this is someone who had never lifted before. Oh, and he ran a legit 4.4.
Most college football guys are natural mesomorphs, guys who were muscular before they ever lifted.
Our off-season program was 4 days a week: Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday. We had conditioning every morning at 6 AM. On lower-body lifting days the conditioning consisted mainly of agility-type drills, while on upper-body lifting days the conditioning revolved around speed work (harness pulls, explosive starts, etc…). Of course every morning we also ran at least 25 40-yard dashes. The lifting was a basic lower/upper split, built around compound movements. Lots of squats, cleans, hang cleans, benches, incline etc…
Oh yeah, here’s a picture of Reggie Bush as a high school senior, before he really ever lifted seriously. See how naturally muscular he is?
[/quote]
I have to agree with you. Over 20 years ago i was a walk on at the U of Missouri and the genetic talent was ungodly. I was a 21 year old walk-on having played Jc ball in California so my first thought was who are these yahoos! I found out believe me. Most college strength training programs in the United states are woefully inadaquete even today. I was even foolish enough to make fun of the strength coach.Maybe that’s why they cut me. Oh well so much for genetic talent.
Brandon Green
Oh boy a USA college strength training program versus the Union of Soviet socialist republic! I wonder who wins!
Good God!
Brandon Green
Virginia tech has a pretty good strength and conditioning book out, the workouts in it are pretty legit. It is called “A chance to win”
Penn State looked pretty physical today! Great players are the bottom line to success. Penn State had a few below average classes and lost some very key coaches over the last 5 years. All division 1 programs have pretty good strength programs. The type of training that a team uses has less to do with their football success than having talented players.
Many of us would not like USC’s strength program but they have great players and the strength program has little to do with their success. USC uses alot of medicine ball training and the strength coach thinks that weight room work is a little overated, they still use the core lifts but that is not the cornerstone of their training.
Michigan’s strength program is very efficient and successful and they would be considered a HIT program. Nebraska has a great strength program and they are olympic based. They have struggled a little the past few years and it has little to do with the strength program. It seems to be the strength programs fault when it is a HIT program?
Hey Guys, Wondering if any1 here goes to USC. I would love to see how their lifting regimen is put together? Any1 have a sample training template from any major football college school? Thanks! Damn, Reggie Bush has the physique I want!
Penn State looked very impressive against an excellent Ohio State team today. This team looks very physical and fast. John Thomas runs a great strength program and Penn State has the players this year.
[quote]Chris Arp wrote:
Penn State looked very impressive against an excellent Ohio State team today. This team looks very physical and fast. John Thomas runs a great strength program and Penn State has the players this year.[/quote]
Yes, Penn State does indeed look impressive this year, a credit to excellent recruiting and amazing natural athletes.
However, “John Thomas runs a great strength program” is one of the falsest statements ever uttered. Did you participate in his strength program? Because I did, and I would lovvvvvvvvvve for anybody to provide evidence of superiority for a weight program which does not use, in-season or out, any type of squat, deadlift, clean, or barbell or dumbbell work at all outside of flat bench press (which is performed AFTER machine upright rows, by the way.
Pre-exhausting the shoulders is just awwwesome for doing bench press, part of that “great strength program”).
A Division 1 strength program based on a Paramount Leg Press, Leg Extensions, and Leg curls, is not “great” by a longshot. I’d be generous in saying it’s mediocre.
I love PSU, and they look great this year, but don’t give any of that credit to a John Thomas strength program. If they lifted like they should be, they would’ve beaten Ohio State by 4 touchdowns.
There is no way that Penn State has better athletes than Ohio State. With your reasoning Ohio State should have won easily because they do squats, cleans and bench. Stength training is not the same as weight lifting, and olynpic lifting. It does not matter how much you bench, it matters that you are strengthening the structure of the shoulder to prevent injury. I train athletes using many different protocols and exersices, but the bottom line is to create systematic overload and you will get stronger and grow. Your body has no idea what method you are using just that it is being overloaded.
[quote]Chris Arp wrote:
There is no way that Penn State has better athletes than Ohio State. With your reasoning Ohio State should have won easily because they do squats, cleans and bench. Stength training is not the same as weight lifting, and olynpic lifting. It does not matter how much you bench, it matters that you are strengthening the structure of the shoulder to prevent injury. I train athletes using many different protocols and exersices, but the bottom line is to create systematic overload and you will get stronger and grow. Your body has no idea what method you are using just that it is being overloaded. [/quote]
First, I don’t see why it is impossible to believe that Penn State could possibly have althletes similar or better to Ohio State, considering they are similar programs, both with excellent recruiting abilities. I was recruited by both Ohio State and Penn State, so were most players with scholarships at Penn State, and I assume the same goes for Ohio State players.
I believe that any team that performs explosive movements, as well as obviously superior lower body and core strengthening movements like squats and deadlifts, has a distinct advantage over a team that does none of these, and instead performs deliberately slow movements on machines as their only weight training.
I absolutely agree that it is very important to strengthen the shoulder structure as you mentioned, but I really don’t think that performing 1 set of an upright row and 1 set of a machine shoulder press, is the way to go about doing this. Last I remember from playing football, I moved in every conceivable plane of motion, very explosively. If I had 8 seconds concentric and 8 seconds eccentric on the football field, it would make for quite a boring game.
I’m not saying a team needs to train like olympic lifters or powerlifters specifically, but I can’t possibly see how anyone can deny the inferiority of a program that only uses machines, and uses them slowly, when the athletic stage these athletes are preparing for demands exact opposite protocols.
Just read the following article at Elite Fitness and thought of this thread:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/13stories.htm
Tales From the Dark Side:
13 Stories of Woe
By Jim Wendler
For EliteFTS.com
Here are some actual stories from actual strength coaches. All these stories have been substantiated by coaches that I know very well and trust. Not one of these coaches are acquaintances or someone I met during a seminar or on the phone. All are good friends of mine and have been FOR YEARS. Basically, what I?m saying is that all of these stories are true and have been told to me by people that I trust my life with. Also, some of these have happened to me. I did not include the names/schools of the guilty parties. So sit back and realize that this stuff REALLY happens.
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For several years, a college strength coach let all of his athletes ? squat. A new assistant came into the weight room and began making all of the players squat to parallel or below. Of course, all of the weights dropped when they began performing the exercise correctly and safely. When it came time to test for the squat, obviously many of the numbers dropped. The head strength coach couldn?t tell the head football coach why this happened. The head football coach would no doubt ask why the players weren?t doing the squats correctly the entire time. In one instance, a player was almost 100lbs. lower than his max. The coach demanded that the athlete cut all of his squats and wrap his knees. The player told the coach that he was not going to do an exercise that was dangerous just to make him happy. The coach was furious and made the athlete extremely mad. The coach wouldn?t let the athlete out of the weight room until he got a new max. So the athlete got 3 players to spot him and all 4 people ?lifted? a new max. The coach responded with a ?That?s how it?s supposed to be done!? and stormed out of the weight room. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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One strength coach makes all of his athletes ? squat. This is because, in his wisdom, an athlete never goes below this position on the field. College Div 1-AA
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A freshman football player comes into training camp very, very out of shape. Not only is he out of shape, but he is carrying a huge amount of body fat (well over 30%). This athlete is so out of shape that, according to a coach that I respect and admire, walking around the football field and on the treadmill would be a starting point for his conditioning. But the head strength and conditioning coach says NO and makes him squat and clean the very first day. The athlete can barely squat his own bodyweight and is so out shape that a set of 5 bodyweight squat leaves him gassed and on the floor. The head strength and conditioning coach will not deviate from his precious program enough to allow for this recruit to catch up and he even makes the athlete ?run? 300 yard shuttles. College: Div. 1-A; major conference.
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An assistant head strength coach is overheard telling an athlete that the reason why anti-oxidants are so good is that they help form free-radicals. College: Div. 1-A; major conference
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One assistant told me that he likes to make up fictitious training ideas and terms and ask the other coaches if they liked them. For example, he would start talking (with much bravado) about ?the trans-micro elocudial phase for squatting? and the other strength coaches would nod their heads in agreement and act/respond as if this concept wasn?t new to them. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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Many head football coaches require that the strength coach give them a printed read-out of all of the player?s maxes and testing results (body fat %, 40, etc.). At one university, the strength coach would always lie on this paper, making the players much stronger than they were. Unfortunately, if a player is a 4 or 5 year player, the maxes get increased so much over this time period that they began getting obnoxious. An assistant overheard one strength coach say to the other (and this is serious), ?We can?t lie about this forever.? The sad thing about this is that many of the position coaches would congratulate the players on having a great performance and the player, with a confused look, would correct the coach and tell him the truth. This would lead to a lot of questions, but like most things at this particular university, it was swept under the rug and forgotten about. This is par for the course and is no wonder why this program is full of losers. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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At one university, the 300 yard shuttle run is used to test a players conditioning. A player will run 2 300 yard shuttles with a 5 minute break between each shuttle. Each position has to average a certain time in order to pass. 2-3 weeks before the dreaded conditioning test, the strength coach decides to run a mock test with the athletes. Only a handful passed. Instead of opting for integrity and standing up like a man, the strength coach moves the test to an unmarked part of the practice field (devoid of any yard markings) and physically measures off the desired distance using his stride as a guide. The distance is clearly shorter than the 30 yards that is needed (it was later measured at 27 yards by a football player). So during the tests, the players run times that they only dreamed of. If you add up the distance that is run, it actually turns out to be one whole length shorter (30 yards). The football coaches know nothing of this phenomenon and our pleased with the outstanding conditioning level of the athletes. Eyebrows are raised though when players that passed the test legitimately several weeks before are upset as their efforts are, in the eyes of the coaches, as reputable as the players that had little work ethic in the summer off-season. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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A year after the fact, an assistant strength coach is talking to a mentor and is told that during his time at a university, the head strength coach told the mentor to NEVER contact or call the assistant coach. The assistant had wanted to contact this mentor in regards to how he (the mentor) designs programs for a more advanced athlete. He did not want the assistant to learn anything new or associate himself with anyone that was not part of the university. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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A graduate assistant, working for peanut shells (not even peanuts), is later told that though there was a policy at the university for health insurance for him, the head strength coach felt it necessary to hide this from him because of some paperwork. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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A strength coach is told by the head of Olympic sports that Mel Siff writes ?nothing more than cookie cutter programs.? College: Div 1-A; major conference
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The same strength coach as above abrasively criticizes the box squat and the very next day has her athletes perform them. Unfortunately, these box squats are done on an 18? box, with a 4? foam riser with the OVERHEAD SQUAT on athletes that have little weight room experience. College: Div 1-A; major conference
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For those of you that believe that research and references are of the utmost importance ? a strength and conditioning coach reports that at his university another colleague of his is studying to get his masters and has to perform a research project. The research project, which was published in an NSCA journal, dealt with different training and its effects towards speed development. The group used was a Division I-A baseball program. One group used free weights, the other a select group of machines and speed devices. To make a long story short, those that used free weights had such awful form and rarely did anything unless the coach was actually watching every set and every rep. So to those that put much stock in these ?studies?. Way to go! Way to be average!
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The over-speed treadmill. Probably one of the greatest forms of entertainment in the weight room. Beats any kind of Sick of Your Gym story or scenario;
? Some French sounding company comes to the university spouting off bits of data and has pie charts and impressive binders containing research and references. The knob they send to answer questions is busy posturing and being very proud of his company. When asked if anyone has ever gotten hurt using this, the answer, according to him, is no. Not an hour later, as the rep is showing the coaches the finer points of the treadmill, one coach severely sprains an ankle and gets a huge turf burn from running on this piece of equipment. Unbelievable.
? The strength coach that buys into this over-speed treadmill crap is so retarded that she has the golfers running (sprinting, actually) on this thing.
? One athlete, set at a speed and angle that is so over her current training level, is being yelled at by Ms. Frenchy to ?Push it!? All the while, Frenchy is violently pushing (physically, by the way) the athlete up the treadmill. I should point out that the athlete is a softball player. We all know that softball players reach top speed during their sport. Anyway, the player falls off of the treadmill and suffers a sprained ankle. Thanks Coach!
Those of you who are familiar with DB’s work and familiar with current college recruiting aren’t suprised by any of this… or the success of Penn Stata using HIT… which MSU also uses…
First off, they don’t just do single sets to failure, nor do they stay with one rep scheme… so there is some form of periodization…
the point is that everyone caught on to Bowden’s old trick at FSU… only recruit rate dominant athletes…
Everyone knows that a beefy PE teacher is vastly different than a Soviet Sports Scientist (USA vs Russia)…
So instead of asking the NSCA and ACSM guys to actually figure out what they were talking about, Bobby, just went out and got all rate dominant guys… then he just threw 10-30 pounds of muscle on them through strength and hypertrophy methods… no RFD or elastic work is really necessary with their guys save for matt drills, some sprinting, and reactive agility work…
They are all already very gifted in rate and elastic qualities…
Just like Spurrier recuited different types of players than Osbourne did, you must also address the fact that you have a guy running your weightroom whose toughest class was anatomy and physiology…
Not that there aren’t bright guys who take these classes (EC is a damn smart cat), but I wasn’t asking these guys to help me with differential equations, or any matrix algebra proofs… nor any of my deeper metaphysical philosophy questions…
Now, if I had to write a 50 word ‘essay’ on the “the differing levels of understanding of Skoal in regard to Bike Shorts and Green Tube Socks” I may have consulted with the knot-head who would eventually ‘earn’ a DI S&C Graduate Assistant job in the weightroom…
(and yes, i took every class listed above… damn me for being 4 different majors during undergrad and grad…)
So, if I was a football coach, and I knew that my S&C coach, if not having pursued the iron game, would have had a phenomenal career in the landscape engineering and/or hospitality faciltiies engineering arenas, I might recruit rate dominant guys also…
Just maybe.
This mostly lies in the fact that it is quite simple to add 20 pounds of muscle to a guy, along with adding some strength… not so very tough…
If you watched your diet, quit being a pus at the eating table, and just followed a decent program, that isn’t an issue… hell most ACE trainers COULD do that for you…
So, why fight the system…
Recruit rate dominant guys… recruit speed… because 99/100 S&C coaches don’t know how to develop it… not really… not for the guys who really lack it…
Then, if your S&C guy throws them all on machines… it isn’t such an issue… hell Hammer Strength made a multi million dollar industry making fancy rehab crap and pushing it on HIT guys…
Just do your agility and speed work to supplement the nautilus crap…
and the rest will take care of itself…
Just don’t ever recruit strength dominant or mixed dominance guys…
Leave those for me… I will help the mortals find their way…
: )
Jumanji