[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
My gym has a close chain leg press machine (the seat moves). Is that better than an open chain leg press?
And how would you classify olympic lifts? They seem to be both closed and open chain.
As for the leg press, it may or may not be better depending on how it is designed. I say avoid leg press at all costs, but I read in another thread that you don’t have a squat rack so you are definitely limited in your choices.
The olympic lifts are closed chain because you are applying force against the ground. The jerk could be considered open chain, but in my opinion it is closed chain because the majority of the force is being produced by the legs against the ground.[/quote]
Hmm… according to the definition I was using, I was thinking that oly lifts are a mix of both. Both the weight and your body moves. Were you using the same definition as mine?
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
Hmm… according to the definition I was using, I was thinking that oly lifts are a mix of both. Both the weight and your body moves. Were you using the same definition as mine?[/quote]
They are closed chain because you are not creating force against the bar. You are pressing against the ground with your feet, causing the bar to come up in the air and then moving your body underneath to catch the bar. This is the same as pressing against the ground to move the bar in a squat. Both you and the weight are moving but what it comes down to is where you are applying the force.
Now this is all assuming you do them correctly. If you use your arms primarily to move the weight then that’s a different story, but technically that’s not olympic lifting either.
Now the jerk could go either way. Maybe someone else can step in and give their opinion on this. You are pushing the bar up with your arms, which would make it open chain. At the same time, you are using your feet to drive off the ground (closed chain) for momentum and then positioning your body under the bar again to catch it. This seems like a mix of both to me. I’d like to hear what others have to say about this exercise.
[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
Hmm… according to the definition I was using, I was thinking that oly lifts are a mix of both. Both the weight and your body moves. Were you using the same definition as mine?
They are closed chain because you are not creating force against the bar. You are pressing against the ground with your feet, causing the bar to come up in the air and then moving your body underneath to catch the bar. This is the same as pressing against the ground to move the bar in a squat. Both you and the weight are moving but what it comes down to is where you are applying the force.
Now this is all assuming you do them correctly. If you use your arms primarily to move the weight then that’s a different story, but technically that’s not olympic lifting either.
Now the jerk could go either way. Maybe someone else can step in and give their opinion on this. You are pushing the bar up with your arms, which would make it open chain. At the same time, you are using your feet to drive off the ground (closed chain) for momentum and then positioning your body under the bar again to catch it. This seems like a mix of both to me. I’d like to hear what others have to say about this exercise.[/quote]
Don’t you use a some arm pulling as well when doing cleans? Of course the back does most of the work but the arms are still heavily involved. As far as I know, you pull yourself under the bar while pulling it up to an extent.
Like you, I’d be really interested on how jerks are classified as far as being open or closed chained. It’s really a mix. What would people call it then?
[quote]undeadlift wrote:
I haven’t encountered a discussion regarding this before. It would be interesting to hear what you guys think.[/quote]
Just an older gym rat here…
Concept of open and closed is good. Do some of both for everything but your legs and stick with closed (e.g. squats) for those. The reason is that it is highly unlikely you will be using some motion like a leg press or leg extension anyplace but on one of those machines. If I can squat, I can leg press, not the other way around.
Upper body, back, abs etc. should be worked both ways just for variety, along with uni-lateral and bilateral movements.
Aside from quibbling over definitions, the better question is where do these exercises fit into a routine for someone? If you workout a lot (like me), then you need to have strategies for getting off plateaus, task switching, managing fatigue etc. Question for me for such a concept is: can I use it someplace? If so, will it take me away from my goals or not? Does it increase the likelihood of injury or maybe help prevent it (e.g. rotator cuff exx. which I hate and do religiously)? If you are looking for the magic training bullet then these aren’t it.
Open/closed movements are good to work in (and we are talking cycles that go over months). Only one or the other won’t get you where you need to be because you will adapt to it.
[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
undeadlift wrote:
Hmm… according to the definition I was using, I was thinking that oly lifts are a mix of both. Both the weight and your body moves. Were you using the same definition as mine?
They are closed chain because you are not creating force against the bar. You are pressing against the ground with your feet, causing the bar to come up in the air and then moving your body underneath to catch the bar. This is the same as pressing against the ground to move the bar in a squat. Both you and the weight are moving but what it comes down to is where you are applying the force.
…[/quote]
You certainly are creating force against the bar. This discussion is mostly pointless as these are poor terms.
Why do people think closed chain exercises are more “functional”?
Look at how the body would function in everyday life.
Lower body movements would consist of closed chain movements where upper body would consist of mostly open chain movements, the exception being vertical pull movement (chins etc).
Um, I do the motion all the time. I am a martial artist and one good way to jam an opponent has you essentially in that position, but standing. Football players do that to. I grapple and have to be agile on the floor which means I get to alternate rapidly between closed and open chain upper body movements.
The question is not whether it is functional for me but if it is for you. I’d guess not. My tack is that I need it, here is what I do. If you need it, help yourself. YMMV
[quote]honkie wrote:
Why do people think closed chain exercises are more “functional”?
Look at how the body would function in everyday life.
Lower body movements would consist of closed chain movements where upper body would consist of mostly open chain movements, the exception being vertical pull movement (chins etc).
Were in life do you do a hand stand push up???[/quote]
because they can do a pushup.
You will malfunction trying to Bench 300 lbs if your max is 225.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Closed Chain. You are pulling or pushing against the floor or another immovable object causing your body to move relative to what you are pushing, if what you are pulling or pushing moves and your body is stationary this is open chain.
Closed chain exercises are generally thought of as more biomechanically sound because this is usually the way you interact with the world, especially from a legs standpoint. Since your body cannot move what it is pulling or pushing, it is up to your body to get into an optimal position to work.
There are advantages and disadvantages depending on your goals. Bodybuilding makes use of an inordinate amount of open chain movements because there is so much more control and freedom of movement.[/quote]
[quote]honkie wrote:
Why do people think closed chain exercises are more “functional”?
Look at how the body would function in everyday life.
Lower body movements would consist of closed chain movements where upper body would consist of mostly open chain movements, the exception being vertical pull movement (chins etc).
Were in life do you do a hand stand push up???[/quote]
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
honkie wrote:
Why do people think closed chain exercises are more “functional”?
Look at how the body would function in everyday life.
Lower body movements would consist of closed chain movements where upper body would consist of mostly open chain movements, the exception being vertical pull movement (chins etc).
Were in life do you do a hand stand push up???
Is running open or closed chain?[/quote]
Running is open and closed, throughout the course of sprinting, you have leg extensions, leg curls, calf raises, hip extension etc. However most of the power from running does not come from the open chain parts of the movement.
The open and closed chain movements interact seamlessly which is why actually getting out runnning and jumping etc, is so important especially from a nervous system standpoint.
Some of the most functional movements IMO are those that would be used in primitive times for building hunting climbing hiking digging chopping etc… Modern days it is usually used as to how well it translates to sport performance.
Some of the best movements, digging and chopping like chopping a tree down are closed chain lower body, open chain upper body, but if you really looked at it and broken down it is alot more complicated than that.
IMO the most functional movements across the board are those in which strength or power that is developed in the lower body has to be brought through the midsection and terminates in a press swing chop dig push or some combination of these.
Almost any time the upper body is used exclusively to produce the strength and or power from a movement, is probably not very functional because this is not the strongest way to use the body. Even pullups are not something that would be done by people that had to climb, you get your legs into a position to assist, carry that strength through to the upper body and there you are.
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Were in life do you do a hand stand push up???
Um, I do the motion all the time. I am a martial artist and one good way to jam an opponent has you essentially in that position, but standing. Football players do that to. I grapple and have to be agile on the floor which means I get to alternate rapidly between closed and open chain upper body movements.
When grappling I must move me, e.g. post a hand on the floor and push off = closed chain upper body movement, then I might end up on my back a split second later with an opponent on top, requiring I push him off = open chain movement.
Stated another way, this is an example where a pushup is followed almost immediately by a chest press. You can get in almost any orientation grappling so you want a good compendium of movements you practice as agility moves and as resistance movements.
The training issue here is whether it is simply being theoretical to have full sets of closed and open chain upper body movements. I was trying to give an example of a sport where the point is not academic and where a pretty fair amount of the training is dedicated to this, even if they don’t phrase it in that way.
[quote]Shadowzz4 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
honkie wrote:
Why do people think closed chain exercises are more “functional”?
Look at how the body would function in everyday life.
Lower body movements would consist of closed chain movements where upper body would consist of mostly open chain movements, the exception being vertical pull movement (chins etc).
Were in life do you do a hand stand push up???
Is running open or closed chain?
Running is open and closed, throughout the course of sprinting, you have leg extensions, leg curls, calf raises, hip extension etc. However most of the power from running does not come from the open chain parts of the movement.
The open and closed chain movements interact seamlessly which is why actually getting out runnning and jumping etc, is so important especially from a nervous system standpoint.
[/quote]
Thanks. That is what I thought. This is why I don’t like the terms very much because most athletic motions seem to be both.
[quote]k1t0r5 wrote:
Now the jerk could go either way. Maybe someone else can step in and give their opinion on this. You are pushing the bar up with your arms, which would make it open chain. At the same time, you are using your feet to drive off the ground (closed chain) for momentum and then positioning your body under the bar again to catch it. This seems like a mix of both to me. I’d like to hear what others have to say about this exercise.[/quote]
During a well-executed jerk, the bar is never pushed up with the shoulders. There is a powerful drive of the legs and as the bar leaves the body from the momentum created by the powerful leg drive, the person jumps under the bar catching it with locked arms. Any sign of “pressing it out” at the top is grounds for not getting 3 white lights.
Btw, my best military press would be somewhere around bodyweight 175. Best Jerk, and clean and jerk- 308lbs.
Once you start pressing with the shoulders, all that useful power from the legs stops.