Clean/Dirty Bulking?

Training Bodybuilding
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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
A consistent definition of “clean” would help whenever these discussions come up.
[/quote]

I agree 100%, along with a definition of “huge” since some people think it means “jacked and strong” while others think it means “fat slob”. After reading some of these responses, it seems like people are less interested in gaining any knowledge and more interested in twisting words to win their debate. Oh wait, I just remembered that this is taking place on teh interwebz. My bad.

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TonyC, it comes down to this, its not about being as big as humanly possible, its about getting as big as you want as fast as possible.

So you can meticulously watch your bulk and pray to god you get as “big” as Zane after years and years of training.

But if you can pack on muscle faster by not being so meticulous…why not do so and then quit and just cut/maintain once you are Zane’s or whatever your desired size is.

Its not like you are gonna eat cheeseburgers and one day magically wake up irreversibly huge and inhuman.

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And vancouverasian:

Sorry but your comment is kind of pointless because around here “big” refers to being of large muscularity, not being a fatass…

Bodybuilders are strong shits too, just because everything thinks they just do everything for a million reps doesn’t mean they aren’t strong bitches.

Like he said, big (we are talking muscle not fatasses…) guys aren’t weak.

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[quote]Work_For_It wrote:
so women like skinny guys with a little muscle, and can’t protect them? I have gone from small to big to small to big in the past few years. when did I get more ass? If u guessed when i was big, you were right. is the girl going to go for the guy with big muscle that nobody is gonna mess with, you bet. ive noticed that a lot of women have said that they dont want big guys, but u know what, they are the ugly girls that look like they have been kicked in the face that cant get any action, so they say they dont want something, just because they cant get it, to comfort themselves. Simple psychology. do you live in a hole? or maybe you just like the girls that are ok looking, because the fuckin hot girls are with the big strong men, im not as big as i was before, but that makes me want to be big again. and if u dont want to be big, then good, more hot ass for the bigger guys.[/quote]

See… people need to stop making assumptions. When did I ever say women like skinny guys with a little bit of muscle. On top of that, according to your profile, you weigh 177. You are no way even close to big. I’d say you’re about average. Go ask some women out there and see if they would preferably want a guy with 250+ LBM. Are you the one living in a hole? If you think you need muscle to get girls, you’re a sad puppy. Obviously, looking physically appealing helps, but its more than just muscle. Wise the fuck up.

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[quote]GetSwole wrote:
TonyC, it comes down to this, its not about being as big as humanly possible, its about getting as big as you want as fast as possible.

So you can meticulously watch your bulk and pray to god you get as “big” as Zane after years and years of training.

But if you can pack on muscle faster by not being so meticulous…why not do so and then quit and just cut/maintain once you are Zane’s or whatever your desired size is.

Its not like you are gonna eat cheeseburgers and one day magically wake up irreversibly huge and inhuman.[/quote]

I am enjoying watching this thread. Bulking is always a heated topic here. I think this thread should be reduced to todthebod’s clear-cut arguement for “clean bulking”, and your to-the-point arguement here for “dirty bulking”, and sticky it to this forum.

What you guys have said in your posts sums up what everybody on either side is trying to say, but much better.

cueball

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I can’t believe no one has brought up the use of AAS, which obviously give much more leeway in the terms of bulking foods. Natural bulking vs. AAS bulking are going to be two different things, just like the difference in natural/AAS training.

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Now the question is can you diet/cut dirty?

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Women might actually start viewing men as men again if we ever start living like men instead of gauging our decisions by what the latest trends in what most women think.

Oh and BTW, you will be sure n let us know when you start getting too big right?[/quote]

Your post is somewhat contradictory. Women might actually start viewing men as men again…
Why would you care what women view you as if you don’t care what most women think? Women are going to think what they think regardless of what the hell you’re doing. You talk like I’m somehow not a man because I care about what other people think? Like somehow my girlfriend doesn’t view me as much of a man because I care what she thinks.
Why did you start bodybuilding in the first place? So you can get big and check yourself out in the mirror? You think that somehow being f’in huge makes you a man?
Why don’t you refute any other parts of my argument, or is it that you cant?

And the last part of your post… is there even a point to that? What are you getting at? Sorry I don’t want to be f’in huge. Apparently I should be crucified for it.

Getswole, I completely agree with you on the point of getting to be as big as you want to be as fast as possible. Yes I know the discussion went off on a tangent, but I made certain points originally to refute your argument that every bodybuilder wants to be as big as they possibly can. It seems you have dropped this argument.

To get back on topic though, what is your logic behind that you can pack on muscle faster by not being so meticulous? There is no doubt that eating clean takes more effort, but at the same time how is someone who is eating “dirty” going to gain faster than someone who is eating “Clean.” If someone is getting enough protein and nutrients to grow optimally, then they will grow optimally. The point of the clean eating part is that they arent going to pack on extra poundage.
If anything PROPERLY “clean” bulking will make you gain faster. Like the triple whopper. 1230 calories with mayo… 1070 without. thats 160 calories strictly from mayo. You think that mayo is providing any nutritional content? Mayo is basically lard. You’re getting a lot of calories from the triple whopper that arent providing much nutritional content.
Now compare that to someone who eats a burger plain with lean ground beef. They don’t put on the extra condiments for the extra useless calories. Instead they eat something with nutritional content to replace those missing calories. Lets say they get an extra 40 grams of protein instead of nothing. How is the clean bulker going to put on muscle slower than the dirty bulker?

And yes i know I’m not going to magically become huge which I already said before in my posts. Moreover, I’ve already said many many times I don’t clean bulk, but I’m arguing that there are benefits to it.

I do have to wonder if most of these people are even reading through my whole post and properly comprehending what I’m saying. People also keep putting words in my mouth. Supposedly I want to be the same size as zane, i said women like skinny men with little muscle, etc etc… come on now… If you don’t have anything to say, then don’t twist my words and don’t say I’m making assumptions when I’m not.

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[quote]
tonyc wrote:
And anyone who knows a damn thing about lifting, knows that being big and moving weight are two different things.

irongutted wrote:
Sorry they are not. Never saw a huge guy with a max bench of 200lbs.[/quote]

You’re right but I’ve seen a 170 lb guy bench 400+. Now obviously I know there are plenty of strong guys here who bench more than that, but I’m trying to illustrate a point.
Now I also have seen 200 lb guys who seem pretty defined, who cant bench over 315.

If you wanna make it more scientific, moving large amounts of weight has to deal with your CNS, as opposed to your muscle fibers. While being big and moving large amounts of weight are related, they are two different things.

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The point in being less strict in bulking is you are more likely to gain muscle because you are more likely eating enough excess calories.

If I knew the magical number that it took, in calories, for me to gain muscle optimally, then I would eat clean foods and never have to worry about fat gain.

The reality is that people can’t find that perfect number and more often than not eat less than it, in an effort to avoid fat gain, which paradoxically slows down muscle gains because ultimately they simply aren’t eating enough.

Being willing to eat alot, not necessarily a precise number of calories, leads to more muscle gain because during that time they are likely spending more time in the appropriate excess for optimal muscle gain.

Charting and tracking every calorie and nutrient in an effort to extremely limit fat gain produces the likelihood of spending much less time in an appropriate caloric excess for optimal muscle gain.

Eating alot, often, can nearly promise optimal muscle gain b/c one is much more likely to be reaching their actual calorie need for muscle growth, not their mathematically calculated need, which is often not appropriate for optimization of muscle growth rates.

Its this simple…Eat…watch the scale…take measurements…if you find yourself gaining fat to quickly…simply taper yourself back some. Fat is a slow moving critter, it is just like muscle, it doesn’t hop on over night.

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[quote]tonyc wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Women might actually start viewing men as men again if we ever start living like men instead of gauging our decisions by what the latest trends in what most women think.

Oh and BTW, you will be sure n let us know when you start getting too big right?

Your post is somewhat contradictory. Women might actually start viewing men as men again…
Why would you care what women view you as if you don’t care what most women think? Women are going to think what they think regardless of what the hell you’re doing. You talk like I’m somehow not a man because I care about what other people think? Like somehow my girlfriend doesn’t view me as much of a man because I care what she thinks.
Why did you start bodybuilding in the first place? So you can get big and check yourself out in the mirror? You think that somehow being f’in huge makes you a man?
Why don’t you refute any other parts of my argument, or is it that you cant?

And the last part of your post… is there even a point to that? What are you getting at? Sorry I don’t want to be f’in huge. Apparently I should be crucified for it. >>>[/quote]

What most women would think of me, whoever they are exactly, means nothing to me and never has. How the genders view each other on a societal level does matter to how that society functions. My statement about men living like men had nothing whatever to do with muscles, large or small, but with attitude. I based my decisions on who I was and the woman who decided to come along became my wife. Why am I wasting my time with this. Do what you want.

As for the topic of this thread, I’ve already said, here and one million times in other threads just like this one that whole unprocessed foods should be eaten wherever possible and I practice what I preach. If someone supplements an overall quality diet with some fast food to boost their calories it is not going to hurt them, especially if their reasonably young active and otherwise healthy never mind that they’re also lifting weights.

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[quote]GetSwole wrote:
The point in being less strict in bulking is you are more likely to gain muscle because you are more likely eating enough excess calories.

If I knew the magical number that it took, in calories, for me to gain muscle optimally, then I would eat clean foods and never have to worry about fat gain.

The reality is that people can’t find that perfect number and more often than not eat less than it, in an effort to avoid fat gain, which paradoxically slows down muscle gains because ultimately they simply aren’t eating enough.

Being willing to eat alot, not necessarily a precise number of calories, leads to more muscle gain because during that time they are likely spending more time in the appropriate excess for optimal muscle gain.

Charting and tracking every calorie and nutrient in an effort to extremely limit fat gain produces the likelihood of spending much less time in an appropriate caloric excess for optimal muscle gain.

Eating alot, often, can nearly promise optimal muscle gain b/c one is much more likely to be reaching their actual calorie need for muscle growth, not their mathematically calculated need, which is often not appropriate for optimization of muscle growth rates.

Its this simple…Eat…watch the scale…take measurements…if you find yourself gaining fat to quickly…simply taper yourself back some. Fat is a slow moving critter, it is just like muscle, it doesn’t hop on over night.[/quote]

While I agree wholeheartedly with what you have written here, other than the first paragraph you have not addressed the argument. The argument is on the value of eating Whoppers instead of home-cooked chicken breasts, not in trying to eat precisely 3714 calories instead of, say, “a lot”, although I can see how they are psychologically related for many people.

I see the pros of dirty-bulking to be:

  • Easier to get a lot of calories
  • More likely to err on eating too much instead of not enough, leading to more overall muscle gain
  • Possibly more enjoyable
    The cons are:
  • Possible adverse health effects
  • Because of likelihood of erring on the too much side, likely greater fat gain than alternatives
  • Less precise control over relative macronutrient ratios

The pros and cons of clean-bulking are, obviously, the reverse. So there are trade-offs. I am not in a position to put a value on these trade-offs, and besides, everyone’s different.

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I think age of said bulker should be taken into consideration. Overall health put aside, a 20 year old bulking with a fair amount of junk food will get away with less fat gain than a 30 year old doing the same.

Obviously there will be exceptions due to insulin sensitivity, overly slow metabolism, etc, but for the most part holds true.

cueball

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People who are eating clean all the time are a lot more likely to be counting calories to the decimal and are probably being overly worried about fat gain was all I was really stating.

Besides, it IS a lot easier to get in enough calories with some “dirtier” foods.

But I don’t really consider cheeseburgers and pizza and such to be dirty. They might be cheats, but that aren’t just wholeheartedly bad for you. I really think people blow the “health” issue out of the water.

I understand that a million grams of saturated or trans fat and a bunch of sugar isn’t healthy. But folks, a normal, training individual who is eating healthy most of the time (including all that time spent dieting) is probably not gonna suffer health conditions from having pizza/cheeseburgers/donuts on occassion. No one here is advocating taking a license to eat all the garbage in sight, the arguement is just to relax a little. I could always be nit picky and point out that weightlifting itself is necessarily “healthy” with the toll it might take on your joints.

The human body is an incredibly adaptive, unfragile mechanism.

Plus I really don’t think making sure you never touch greasy or “dirty” food will really improve your long term health.

It’s what you do the most of the time that counts. And presumably no one on this website would be gorging on junk on a regular basis, which is what lead to health issues of the common population. I am quick to assert though, that the training, planning, and nutrient conscious people that should be making up this site, don’t fall into the common population.

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[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Plus I really don’t think making sure you never touch greasy or “dirty” food will really improve your long term health.[/quote]

This is how I feel. If you ask some people, they’d say I’m on a lifetime ‘dirty bulk.’ In reality, bacon cheeseburgers and quarts of milk fit into my diet for gaining. For me, that’s clean eating. That’s how bodybuilders have eaten since the dawn of weights.

What I don’t eat is sugary or excessively starchy foods. This doesn’t mean I’m ‘low carb,’ but I don’t eat potatoes, french fries, donuts or wonder-bread.

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[quote]GetSwole wrote:
People who are eating clean all the time are a lot more likely to be counting calories to the decimal and are probably being overly worried about fat gain was all I was really stating.
[/quote]

I see where you’re coming from but counting calories isn’t all that time consuming. It honestly takes like 5 minutes of my day at most to keep track of it in my head. I don’t think most people are that obsessed with being super specific about how many calories they’re getting.

But like you were saying before, you want to make sure you’re getting enough calories. But how do you exactly gauge how much less to eat if you think you’re gaining weight too fast? With calories you have an easy measure, but without it, it would seem pretty difficult to measure how much you’re eating and how to compensate when you’re gaining too fast.

Obviously, eat less but unless you’re eating the same things everyday, you can’t really be sure just how much you’re actually eating. With calories, for example, if I’m getting 3k calories and I’m not gaining weight, I know getting about 250-350 calories extra is going to allow me to start gaining weight again. Maybe I’m not making the fastest gains ever, but I know for a fact I’m making damn good gains at least.

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I don’t know why you seem to be getting upset over this. I was just trying to make my point and defend myself from getting flamed for not wanting to be f’in huge.
I’m just wondering… are you saying that a male isn’t a man if he cares about what other people think?
You say you don’t care what the hell other people think, but apparently you do if you cared enough to bother with this thread for so long.

“How the genders view each other on a societal level does matter to how that society functions.” How does this statement even relate to anything we’re talking about?

your statement about men living like men was obviously about attitude… but if you think people don’t care what other people think… you need a reality check. Everyone cares what other people think at least to some extent. According to your statement, apparently finding a “man” is a rare occasion I suppose.

most women… whoever they are exactly… uhh are you serious?
That would be referring to the majority of women out there. But obviously you don’t care, so why comment about it?

It’s not like I base my decisions in life off of what other people think. I’m not going to college for anyone but myself. I play basketball because I love the sport, not because I think people will think I’m cool for playing it. As for weightlifting, I do it for sports, myself, and to also look good. Those are my decisions. I don’t want to get freaking massive because I don’t want to look like juggernaut and run through walls, although that would be fun for a little bit. But in order to look good, there are different perspectives on this obviously. If you yourself think you look good… great. But that really doesn’t mean a thing if everyone else thinks you look terrible. That’s where I’m coming from.

and as for the topic, no one said that eating a cheeseburger is going to make them a fat and destroy their health. If they need a cheeseburger to get enough calories, that is fine. But compared to someone who does eat clean and does it on a consistent basis vs someone who does constantly eat cheeseburgers to get enough calories, the guy eating clean is going to gain faster. It’s only logical. This is obviously assuming they are getting enough calories everyday.

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Without trying to argue or discredit anyone on here, no one has really brought up the issue of insulin or insulin sensitivity. Those that say they will eat a triple cheeseburger to get those calories (yet don’t eat the fries) are still going to be dealing w/ a insulin response thanks to the bun, whereas someone eating “cleaner” (depending on your definition of it) will probably have a lower glycemic load throughout the day (pre and post workout shakes excepted).

If they eat the same amount of calories, even if both are slightly over their required amount, it’s the clean eater who will be more apt to maintain their current bf%, but will still have the positive nitrogen balance to fuel muscle growth. You don’t NEED for your muscles in order to grow them w/ protein synthesis, only to replenish glycogen (ignoring microsatellite stem cell recruitment, because it’s not exactly insulin responsible for it), but having the the excess insulin in your bloodstream (in the dirty bulker) will repress any fat burning and tend to increase bf% to a greater degree.
I guess this goes back to an overall health argument, but above and beyond cholesterol.

ICS

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[quote]tonyc wrote:
I know getting about 250-350 calories extra is going to allow me to start gaining weight again. Maybe I’m not making the fastest gains ever, but I know for a fact I’m making damn good gains at least.

[/quote]

How do you know this?

And here in lies the problem, I didn’t say you couldn’t make gains your way, but I did say you can not make gains optimally (meaning as quickly as possible that way), so really you just proved my point. That it is more efficient to loosely track macros and really just focus on eating enough calories if your goal is to gain muscle AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE (which is the key phrase). That is the goal that proponents of my view are arguing for. And frankly, I don’t see why you wouldn’t do so to get to your desired size as fast as possible, then easily and quickly diet the bit of excess fat off.

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[quote]tonyc wrote:
<<< Sorry bud, like I said, most women would find a massive guy unattractive or even repulsive. >>>[/quote]

You said this as if I somehow indicated that I gave a shit even if it were true. I shouldn’t have responded to it as it’s a topic for another thread that I never would’ve posted in. I couldn’t care less.

The general topic of this thread has been gone over and over and over and over long before you were here. Seriously, you have no idea.

I’m frankly becoming numb to discussing it. You seem like a sharp enough guy who knows his goals so fair enough. For somebody who does want to push their potential lots of eating will be required and if some of it isn’t what I would eat and it moves them closer to their goals that’s all that should matter to them.