Clean/Dirty Bulking?

Training Bodybuilding
41

if the vast majority of your diet is centered around healthy foods such as lean meats, veggies, fruit, nuts and dairy, then i don’t see a problem with eating hamburgers, pizza, pop-tarts, etc. as calorie supplements on a bulk. personally, i would rather get calories from healthy foods (i tend to feel sick after i eat fast food).

as for the whole bodybuilding thing, i would most definetly like to see exactly just how big and strong i can possibly get, but part of the sport is the symmetry. take lee haney for example. he was one large SOB. could he have gotten bigger? most likely. would the extra size detract from his appeal? most likely.

that said, most people need to focus on overall total-body lean mass before they start to worry about whether their pecs are in proportion.

42

fulmen, it only becomes a great assumption if you assume that bodybuilding means getting as big as possible. This would mean that someone who aspires to get larger, but not as large as they possibly could, is not bodybuilding. This is not true. If you look at how bodybuilding has progressed, the professional bodybuilders are getting bigger every year.

Compare bodybuilders of this age to Frank Zane. Frank Zane was by no means f’in huge but at the same time, he had a damn good physique. By no way is he mediocre. I’m pretty sure Zane could have gotten bigger than he was. Because I don’t want to be as big as possible, does not mean I’m striving for mediocrity.

You say the site has become flooded with people who don’t want to be as big as possible. Even if it were still how you say it was in the “old days,” i still think it would be dumb to assume
that everyone is striving for the same goal. That’s just how I think.

Moreover, how do you even know when you’ve gotten as big as you can get? Say 10 years down the road from now, you’re still lifting… how are you going to know that you can’t get any bigger? When do you start cutting if you even care about that?

To say that everyone wants to get as big as possible is like me saying everyone wants to have a six pack. Some bodybuilders really don’t care about having clearly defined abs. Have you seen a pro bodybuilder that didnt have clearly defined abs? No, So then i should assume every bodybuilder wants those abs? get my point?

Everyone assumes clean bulking means you can’t get plenty of muscle and keep the fat loss to a minimum. Fat gain is going to be impossible to stop when you’re on a caloric surplus. The point is to minimize that fat gain.

3500 cals from clean foods > 3500 cals from not so clean foods

It’s not like I’m going to somehow not gain as much muscle because I’m eating clean. In fact if I’m eating clean and getting that amount of calories, I’m probably taking in more protein and nutrients than I am from the not so clean foods. On top of that, I keep off the gut and when it is time to lose a little bit of weight, there’s that much less to get rid of. How is that not logical? If you care enough to make the effort to eat clean, it’ll pay off.

Now most people don’t have the drive to clean bulk properly so yea, eat a burger then and make sure you’re getting enough calories or else your gains are going to blow.

43

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
tonyc wrote:
This is a bodybuilding/powerlifting site so everyone obviously wants to be as big as possible? That’s a terrible assumption.

Tony, I’m gonna be nice (which will probably make Tiribulus proud)and simply state that I disagree. That’s a great assumption, but this site has now become diluted with people that DONT’ want to get big. There has been so many of those types that they now outnumber those who do want to get big, thus reversing the manjority/minority. Now the majority are those who strive for mediocrity.

Also, my greatest gains came from “dirtying” up the diet. To me, a calorie is a calorie, and I look a hell of a lot better-AND BIGGER, as do a lot of pro’s and big guys that know how to do shit right. Just like I’ve repeated many times, that doesn’t mean I just fucking unload on donuts and pop-tarts. I love to eat healthy meat and all that jazz, but I’m sure as hell not gonna fear a burger.

I can’t believe anyone would side with the notion to gain 10lbs in a year just to not gain any bodyfat versus they coulda gained that and cut all in the same year. It’s not logical and makes no sense to me. Maybe losing abs is an underlying subconscious fear problem.[/quote]

I didn’t suggest “being nice”, but since you brought it up here I did suggest that the angry attitude may become an obstacle to the good you could do here.

As usual I agree with the substance of what you’re saying. Somewhere along the way I learned that if WHAT you’re saying is unassailable saying it in a concise refined manner removes a whole arsenal of weapons from those who would attack your argument. They’re forced to respond to WHAT you said instead of being distracted by HOW you said it. With a little practice this can even be done with biting sarcasm that really pisses off an unruly opponent thus providing yourself, and maybe some others with a little entertainment.

Of course nobody’s right every time and if you’ve clearly been bested in a debate it pays to just say “I stand corrected”. People begrudgingly respect that and there goes another set weapons that may be used against you.

BTW “losing abs” is absolutely an underlying subconscious, or in a lot of cases even conscious fear that stands firmly in the way of a lot of progress for a lot of people. If the focus is fat that will drive your decisions. If muscle then that will drive them.

44

[quote]tonyc wrote:
How is that not logical? If you care enough to make the effort to eat clean, it’ll pay off.

Now most people don’t have the drive to clean bulk properly so yea, eat a burger then and make sure you’re getting enough calories or else your gains are going to blow. [/quote]

You’re still not seeing where I come from, and I’ll enlighten you. For me, I look at muscle mass as something I need to gain, to aquire. I have two options:

A) Eat “clean” foods. The pro’s of this is minimal fat gain and nutritious. The cons are time-expending, expensive (if you eat meat like I do), and lots of boundaries. Also time-expending on gaining muscle, so that you won’t gain more fat.

B)“Dirty” it up. Pro’s are quick muscle gain, no need to worry if I’m getting enough calories or related, convenient, inexpensive, and not time-consuming. Cons are fat gain, but if you’re gaining too much fat LOWER THE CALORIES.

Seriously, I would choose B. If fat gain is such a worry, all you have to do is throw in some cardio and lower the calories a bit(at least in my experience).

45

A consistent definition of “clean” would help whenever these discussions come up.

I define clean as non fast/junk, unprocessed whole food. NOT low fat or low calorie. In that model I have no problem getting 5000 plus clean calories a day. In my view that is the preferred method. However a young healthy active trainee would do themselves no harm and probably some good by not being as strict as I am. This is definitely the case if under consumption is the alternative.

46

[quote]tonyc wrote:

And anyone who knows a damn thing about lifting, knows that being big and moving weight are two different things. [/quote]

Sorry they are not. Never saw a huge guy with a max bench of 200lbs.

47

[quote]tonyc wrote:
fulmen, it only becomes a great assumption if you assume that bodybuilding means getting as big as possible. This would mean that someone who aspires to get larger, but not as large as they possibly could, is not bodybuilding. >>>[/quote]

You’re assuming that getting largER requires different methods than getting largEST.

I have never gotten this mindset. Few natural trainees who ever show up here will be in danger of looking anything even like Zane under the best of circumstances and effort. Approaching the weights and the food like there is ever a need to be apprehensive about getting too big is a recipe for failure right outta the gate and if you ever do see yourself getting “too big”, you can just knock it off.

48

clean bulking: 14 oz chicken breast. durty bulking: double six dollar burger with cheese and bacon.

49

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You’re assuming that getting largER requires different methods than getting largEST.

I have never gotten this mindset. Few natural trainees who ever show up here will be in danger of looking anything even like Zane under the best of circumstances and effort. Approaching the weights and the food like there is ever a need to be apprehensive about getting too big is a recipe for failure right outta the gate and if you ever do see yourself getting “too big”, you can just knock it off.[/quote]

Great post. Couldn’t have stated it better.

Lol at; ‘I don’t wanna get too big, just maybe the size of a small olympia winner.’

50

[quote]
Tiribulus wrote:
You’re assuming that getting largER requires different methods than getting largEST.

I have never gotten this mindset. Few natural trainees who ever show up here will be in danger of looking anything even like Zane under the best of circumstances and effort. Approaching the weights and the food like there is ever a need to be apprehensive about getting too big is a recipe for failure right outta the gate and if you ever do see yourself getting “too big”, you can just knock it off.

Dirty_Bulk wrote:
Great post. Couldn’t have stated it better.

Lol at; ‘I don’t wanna get too big, just maybe the size of a small olympia winner.’[/quote]

Oh i’m sorry apparently not wanting to get too big is so harshly frowned upon. Sorry bud, like I said, most women would find a massive guy unattractive or even repulsive.

Second how, in any way, have I assumed that getting larger requires different methods than getting to be as large as possible? In no way am I scared of getting too big. I just don’t want to be too big. That’s a personal choice. IF i so choose to become big as I can, that’s pretty easy sir. Getting big is not that amazingly hard. It requires hard work and dedication, but it’s not like it takes some secret formula. Go to the gym and eat. It’s basically that simple.

I’m not scared of being too big. I don’t want to be too big. There’s a huge difference. It’s not like I’m going to magically put on 50 pounds of muscle and it’s not like my gains have stagnated at all from my choices of what to eat in my diet. I get enough calories, but apparently because I don’t want to be too big, I’m going to fail?

The whole point of pointing out Zane is to reiterate the fact that not every bodybuilder wants to be as big as they possibly can like some of you think. Like I said, Zane obviously could have gotten bigger than he was if he wanted to. And nowhere in my post did I say I wanted to be like Zane now did I?

51

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
You’re still not seeing where I come from, and I’ll enlighten you. For me, I look at muscle mass as something I need to gain, to aquire. I have two options:

A) Eat “clean” foods. The pro’s of this is minimal fat gain and nutritious. The cons are time-expending, expensive (if you eat meat like I do), and lots of boundaries. Also time-expending on gaining muscle, so that you won’t gain more fat.

B)“Dirty” it up. Pro’s are quick muscle gain, no need to worry if I’m getting enough calories or related, convenient, inexpensive, and not time-consuming. Cons are fat gain, but if you’re gaining too much fat LOWER THE CALORIES.

Seriously, I would choose B. If fat gain is such a worry, all you have to do is throw in some cardio and lower the calories a bit(at least in my experience).
[/quote]

I do see where you’re coming from sir. But where exactly is the cutoff point for too much “dirty” foods. I’ve lifted while eating “dirty” foods as compared to eating mostly “clean” foods, and I noticed a difference in the fat I was putting on. And yes, I do count my calories so it’s not like I’m slackin with regards to my diet. If you don’t care about putting on that fat, then dirty it up. It comes down to whether you think the extra effort to eat clean is worth it. For some people, going that extra distance isn’t a big deal, and its definitely worth it if they don’t mind putting in a bit of effort. However, for some other people, they rather spend that extra time doing something else, and that’s perfectly fine, I’m one of those people. But people badmouth clean bulking like its the dumbest idea ever. All I’m saying is if people properly clean bulk, I believe they will have better gains than people dirty bulking. Is it worth the effort? That’s up to the individual. I don’t see how eating clean and getting enough calories would make you take longer at gaining muscle. When you eat that hamburger, its not the actual hamburger that is huge in calories. It’s the condiments and the extra crap put on it. Instead of 200 calories from ketchup, mayo, and the like, what about 2 lean chicken breasts for another 40+g of protein. Same caloric intake but obviously different nutritional value. That was the other point I was trying to make. Now I don’t know if you slam on all the condiments with every hamburger/cheeseburger. I was just trying to make that point. With clean and dirty bulking, you obviously want to be in your target caloric intake. It’s the content of what you’re eating that makes the difference. So it’s not like because I’m clean bulking, that I’m going to be getting a caloric deficit. That definitely wouldn’t work out well.

52

so women like skinny guys with a little muscle, and can’t protect them? I have gone from small to big to small to big in the past few years. when did I get more ass? If u guessed when i was big, you were right. is the girl going to go for the guy with big muscle that nobody is gonna mess with, you bet. ive noticed that a lot of women have said that they dont want big guys, but u know what, they are the ugly girls that look like they have been kicked in the face that cant get any action, so they say they dont want something, just because they cant get it, to comfort themselves. Simple psychology. do you live in a hole? or maybe you just like the girls that are ok looking, because the fuckin hot girls are with the big strong men, im not as big as i was before, but that makes me want to be big again. and if u dont want to be big, then good, more hot ass for the bigger guys.

53

also, it is easier to do a dirty bulk, and hard to do it clean, so do whatever you want. not everything works the same for everyone, make your own decisions. both ways can work, but one is going to be easier to do and cheaper. Also, if u like workin out, then a dirty bulk will give u more time in the gym so u can lose the excess fat. I love cardio, so this works for me.

54

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
A) Eat “clean” foods. The pro’s of this is minimal fat gain and nutritious. The cons are time-expending, expensive (if you eat meat like I do), and lots of boundaries. Also time-expending on gaining muscle, so that you won’t gain more fat.

B)“Dirty” it up. Pro’s are quick muscle gain, no need to worry if I’m getting enough calories or related, convenient, inexpensive, and not time-consuming. Cons are fat gain, but if you’re gaining too much fat LOWER THE CALORIES.

Seriously, I would choose B. If fat gain is such a worry, all you have to do is throw in some cardio and lower the calories a bit(at least in my experience).
[/quote]

Sorry, but most of this argument doesn’t make any sense. If we are comparing 4000 calories of “clean” foods versus 4000 calories of “dirty” foods, how the hell are you going to gain more muscle in the second case than the first? I’m not convinced by your cost argument, either. Last I checked a triple whopper cost more than buying ground beef and cooking it yourself at home. And “LOWER THE CALORIES”?! So now you are going to eat fewer calories than you would in (A) and still somehow gain more muscle?

Golden-age bodybuilders got big eating Costco-size portions of eggs, beef, chicken, rice, potatoes, etc. Outside a few recent pros, I’ve never heard of any successful bodybuilders who frequently ate junk food. Even Professor X won’t eat the fries!

55

[quote]tonyc wrote:
<<< Sorry bud, like I said, most women would find a massive guy unattractive or even repulsive. >>>[/quote]

Women might actually start viewing men as men again if we ever start living like men instead of gauging our decisions by what the latest trends in what most women think.

Oh and BTW, you will be sure n let us know when you start getting too big right?

56

[quote]toddthebod wrote:
Fulmen wrote:
A) Eat “clean” foods. The pro’s of this is minimal fat gain and nutritious. The cons are time-expending, expensive (if you eat meat like I do), and lots of boundaries. Also time-expending on gaining muscle, so that you won’t gain more fat.

B)“Dirty” it up. Pro’s are quick muscle gain, no need to worry if I’m getting enough calories or related, convenient, inexpensive, and not time-consuming. Cons are fat gain, but if you’re gaining too much fat LOWER THE CALORIES.

Seriously, I would choose B. If fat gain is such a worry, all you have to do is throw in some cardio and lower the calories a bit(at least in my experience).

Sorry, but most of this argument doesn’t make any sense. If we are comparing 4000 calories of “clean” foods versus 4000 calories of “dirty” foods, how the hell are you going to gain more muscle in the second case than the first? I’m not convinced by your cost argument, either. Last I checked a triple whopper cost more than buying ground beef and cooking it yourself at home. And “LOWER THE CALORIES”?! So now you are going to eat fewer calories than you would in (A) and still somehow gain more muscle?

Golden-age bodybuilders got big eating Costco-size portions of eggs, beef, chicken, rice, potatoes, etc. Outside a few recent pros, I’ve never heard of any successful bodybuilders who frequently ate junk food. Even Professor X won’t eat the fries![/quote]

Absolutely the best worded arguement against “dirty bulk” I’ve seen. Very concise.

cueball

57

[quote]tonyc wrote:
IF i so choose to become big as I can, that’s pretty easy sir.
[/quote]

LOL.

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[quote]toddthebod wrote:
Sorry, but most of this argument doesn’t make any sense. If we are comparing 4000 calories of “clean” foods versus 4000 calories of “dirty” foods, how the hell are you going to gain more muscle in the second case than the first?[/quote]

Simply because, as you know, calories is just one peice to the puzzle. I’d have to worry about making a protein shake and/or eating a boatload of food to get enough protein in if I eat completely clean. To me, time is money, and I don’t want to waste my time with making protein drinks (and I made gains without even using protein drinks but just food that’s considered “dirty”).

With me, to make a triple whopper at home, it would cost near or over $7.00. Your prices are different than mine, so to ME, it’s more cost-friendly to eat a triple whopper than make one.

This stems from if you’re gaining too much fat, then you are getting in TOO MANY calories. Then you have to lower them.

I eat the same stuff, too. What differs is I mix my diet up with “dirty” foods, so then I don’t have to eat a “Costco-sized portions”. I don’t eat fries either-they’re just carbs.

59

[quote]Fulmen wrote:
tonyc wrote:
Joe. D, you seem to have quite a bias against people who want to eat healthy and dare I say, clean bulk. Honestly though, how many people do you actually think want to look like a professional bodybuilder? Most people will never get there but then again at the same time, most people don’t want to be that big. Never would I ever want to be as big as say, dorian yates, because honestly most women wouldn’t find that attractive and I like pussy. Trying to generalize people into 3 categories is just plain stupid. Everyone has their own reasons for what they do. And no, I don’t work out just to look good. But at the same time, I don’t want a gut.

But, can you really deny that if a person has the drive to clean bulk and do it properly, that they wouldn’t be doing it in a more efficient way? Seriously, it’s pretty clear. People talk like clean bulking is just impossible and an ordinary guy can’t do it. It is not the fastest way? So you’re telling me someone who eats a bit sloppy and puts on plenty of fat with the muscle is going to get bigger and more ripped than someone who puts on the same amount of muscle with minimal amounts of fat? People talk like you can’t put on just as much muscle while you’re eating clean.

This is why I didn’t reply. Getting big is stupid here.

Why the fuck do I get on here…

[/quote]

I thought I’d qualified my answer pretty well by spelling out exactly how this stupid thread would go down. I have not been proven wrong.

People log on and bitch about how ickey muscles are and how women blah blah blah…excuses. Either get big or don’t, if you can get huge eating diet chicken breasts and caffeine free water, good for you.

I’ve chosen to forego wondering about with my shirt off all day with my abs on show for a few years in order to get huge. I couldn’t give a crap what anyone else thinks about getting huge.

And before all the usual mob long on and complain, please explain where I said to eat lard all day. I didn’t, please re-read what I, and the few on this forum who are actually trying to get bigger are saying.

60

[quote]
tonyc wrote:

And anyone who knows a damn thing about lifting, knows that being big and moving weight are two different things.

irongutted wrote:

Sorry they are not. Never saw a huge guy with a max bench of 200lbs.[/quote]

what are u talking about? theres plenty of fat guys that can barely bench 135? when i first started working out i weighed 240 and benched 95 that is a clear example of how being big and moving weight are 2 different things. eating dirty gets u there.

fyi im not at that stage anymore, just throwing in my opinion