Cheetin' Chinese

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
The first fundamental difference is that our laws were made by elected officials and could be changed if enough people wanted it. In China, people have no say in the matter.

All I wanted was an answer that did not include pejorative remarks – though they are still quite funny even when directed at me.

I think being forced to do something is a black and white issue. I either do it because I want to or do it because I am being forced to.

There are a very small minority of people who do not wish to comply with governmental standards and I think they should not have to. And I don’t need to remind you that democratically issued laws can still be immoral.

There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

There is no law - at least not in Texas - that states a child must be educated in a state supported school. The only law is that they pass an standardized test to prove they have been educated.

I can teach my kids at home, send them to private school, a charter school, or to a public school.

Children should have no say in what they are allowed to do, or not do. They are incapable of making such a decision. The fact that adults have given children a say is the very reason teachers are allowed carry in at least one Texas school district.

Your notion that education is immoral is idiocy. There is no self-respecting parent that would not allow their children to be educated.

The idiocy is in the absolute goat screw that has become public education. [/quote]

You said “goat screw”! HA! I love that, I plan on using that one.

Anyhow, I agree with the fact that all children should be educated. I disagree with the government mandate of it. I think if someone wants their kid to be a total dumbass then let them, that’s what free country is for, to make choices you want, whether they be goo or bad. It’s really nobody’s business.
But mandated education is far, far from abuse. It’s not even the same game much less ballpark.

142

[quote]pat wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Swiiing and a miss!

All children are abused taken from their homes forced to perform for the state? Really?

You lot did assume the particular gymnast was “abused” and “taken from [her] home”. Maybe you could explain to us how you can be so sure that it wasn’t her choice (and that of her close circle) to try and be the best.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368416/Olympics-Pinsent-upset-at-Chinese-'abuse'.html

[/quote]

Well pat, while I agree with you in principle and have said so already before in this thread, and also agree that IF this impregnation/abortion cycle is going on that is clearly abuse in a heinous form, I’m going to have say that just because a coach is striking a gymnast it does not automatically equal abuse. Different cultures have different standards on acceptable discipline, and to my knowledge (albeit limited) the Chinese have a much more physical interpretation. A lot of this comes from their history and values.

I will say that if it is a beating, then that is not acceptable. But even here in the states it’s ok (or should be considered ok) for people to physically discipline their kids. NOW, coaches are not parents at all, but we also used to allow physical discipline in schools for years upon years. Without going into LIfty’s arguments, that sounds very similar to what coaches in china are doing. The differences here are cultural interpretations of discipline between us and many eastern countries, not just the Chinese, and the degree to which physical interference occurs (is it excessive or not?).

Oh, and without appearing to uncaring towards the China situation, my dad disciplined me a number of times to the point where I had red marks on my ass from the belt or wooden spoon. I turned out fine, and I would not consider that abuse in my case at all. Red marks, while unsightly and perhaps disturbing to the weaker stomached are nothing serious in and of themselves.

143

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated. [/quote]

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

144

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

[/quote]

There is a difference between a parent’s responsibility, and your lunacy.

Most people know that difference. Sadly, you are not one of them.

If you want to make a point, make it - just stop with all the stupid absurdities.

145

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

There is a difference between a parent’s responsibility, and your lunacy.

Most people know that difference. Sadly, you are not one of them.

If you want to make a point, make it - just stop with all the stupid absurdities. [/quote]

But what if part of the school curriculum included madatory beatings? Huh? You don’t want that do you?

What if the kids are forced to fight to the death? Have you ever thought of that?

Education is evil!!!11!!!

146

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

There is a difference between a parent’s responsibility, and your lunacy.

Most people know that difference. Sadly, you are not one of them.

If you want to make a point, make it - just stop with all the stupid absurdities.

But what if part of the school curriculum included madatory beatings? Huh? You don’t want that do you?

What if the kids are forced to fight to the death? Have you ever thought of that?

Education is evil!!!11!!!
[/quote]
Worked for the Spartans hehehe…just not for very long!

147

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

There is a difference between a parent’s responsibility, and your lunacy.

Most people know that difference. Sadly, you are not one of them.

If you want to make a point, make it - just stop with all the stupid absurdities. [/quote]

Sadly, you have little ability to argue or even understand them.

Education is NOT immoral and neither is gymnastics and I never said it was – yet an other strawman. I am talking about the use of force to make people comply with ambiguous regulations and standards viz. education, etc.

Someone who did not want their child going to public school and could not afford private school would probably not have many options and would suffer harassment from government if they were to follow through with their principles.

There are some parents that don’t want their children’s minds soiled with state issued propaganda. That is very immoral.

Parent’s do have a responsibility – education being only one of many. Child rearing is not a government function. No real conservative would ever think it was or should be.

148

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
By your ridiculous definitions all laws of men are immoral.[/quote]

No…this is not what I argue. Government must comply with the non-aggression axiom. Most laws disregard this and enforcement of them laws is immoral. Government; however, is always immoral because it uses force and coercion to enforce it – with taxation.

Laws, rules, customs, manners, protocols will exist whether government does or not. Society agrees on custom, etc., spontaneously and typically people follow it whether they realize it or not. Cooperation cannot exist with out protocol.

I don’t shit in the street not because there is a law against it but because I don’t want to alienate my neighbors. Anti-social behavior has consequences.

149

[quote]pat wrote:
But mandated education is far, far from abuse. It’s not even the same game much less ballpark.[/quote]

I took great care to leave the abuse aspect out of the argument because it is a value judgment for the abusee to make. Certainly the punishment for noncompliance could be considered abuse – i.e., taking children from their parents and putting them in State foster care.

It was only a question as to whether the use of force to educate children is analogous to the use of force to create athletes.

The differences are superficial only and not fundemental.

150

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

Well then let me take your kid from you and stuff him in a Islamic school. There is nothing immoral about it.

There is a difference between a parent’s responsibility, and your lunacy.

Most people know that difference. Sadly, you are not one of them.

If you want to make a point, make it - just stop with all the stupid absurdities.

Sadly, you have little ability to argue or even understand them.

Education is NOT immoral and neither is gymnastics and I never said it was – yet an other strawman. I am talking about the use of force to make people comply with ambiguous regulations and standards viz. education, etc.

Someone who did not want their child going to public school and could not afford private school would probably not have many options and would suffer harassment from government if they were to follow through with their principles.

There are some parents that don’t want their children’s minds soiled with state issued propaganda. That is very immoral.

Parent’s do have a responsibility – education being only one of many. Child rearing is not a government function. No real conservative would ever think it was or should be.[/quote]

None of what you are talking about is tantamount to abuse. That’s the discussion…Not the rightness of state mandated education.

151

[quote]pat wrote:
None of what you are talking about is tantamount to abuse. That’s the discussion…Not the rightness of state mandated education.[/quote]

I don’t care about the abuse aspect of this argument. We all know and understand the concept of slavery. That is what this is. Of course, that is communism, no?

152

What was even more fun than the 12 year old chinese gymnasts was that Bob Costas looked about the same size himself? He can’t be more than 5’2" … we should put him out there on the beam …

153

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Sadly, you have little ability to argue or even understand them.[/quote]

Most of your drivel is too stupid too address.

There is nothing “ambiguous” about education, or the regulations surrounding the will of the people that all children receive an education of such quality that the child be able to pass a test.

Then the parent would have to make a choice as to what means more to them: their child, or their way of life. I have made that choice, so please do not propose to pull this cock-and-bull scenario out of your ass. I was delivering fucking pizzas, and our children never saw the inside of a daycare center, or a public school.

Home. School.

No one is saying that education should be a government function. I certainly am not saying it. But I do think that getting education should be a mandatory pre-requisite for anyone who wishes to do anything past adolescence.

154

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There is nothing “ambiguous” about education, or the regulations surrounding the will of the people that all children receive an education of such quality that the child be able to pass a test.
[/quote]

This just shows you how woefully ignorant you are of the issue of “freedom of choice” – it includes the freedom to not choose to. The “will of the people” is meaningless.

It is only the will of the individual that matters. I don’t care what some country bumkin thinks about how a child should be educated and what tests need to be passed. That is completely irrelevant. It is wrong to force your values onto other people – that is how a democratic state operates by definition.

[quote]
Then the parent would have to make a choice as to what means more to them: their child, or their way of life.[/quote]

Again, it is not for the State to decide this. This ultimately means no one really has a choice – or rather it is a false one.

[quote]
Home. School.[/quote]

Standardized. Regulated.

Me too! But it is no ones decision but your own what is best for your children – you may think juggling and Christian mythology is the only curriculum that needs to be bestowed upon your children. Your actions will have consequences.

155

[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Sadly, you have little ability to argue or even understand them.

Most of your drivel is too stupid too address.

Education is NOT immoral and neither is gymnastics and I never said it was – yet an other strawman. I am talking about the use of force to make people comply with ambiguous regulations and standards viz. education, etc.

There is nothing “ambiguous” about education, or the regulations surrounding the will of the people that all children receive an education of such quality that the child be able to pass a test.

Someone who did not want their child going to public school and could not afford private school would probably not have many options and would suffer harassment from government if they were to follow through with their principles.

Then the parent would have to make a choice as to what means more to them: their child, or their way of life. I have made that choice, so please do not propose to pull this cock-and-bull scenario out of your ass. I was delivering fucking pizzas, and our children never saw the inside of a daycare center, or a public school.

There are some parents that don’t want their children’s minds soiled with state issued propaganda. That is very immoral.

Home. School.

Parent’s do have a responsibility – education being only one of many. Child rearing is not a government function. No real conservative would ever think it was or should be.

No one is saying that education should be a government function. I certainly am not saying it. But I do think that getting education should be a mandatory pre-requisite for anyone who wishes to do anything past adolescence. [/quote]

I guess it is just gratuitous at this point to pile on Lifticus’ clockwork idiocy, but to add another point: children aren’t chattel.

If a parent decides to teach a child who doesn’t know any better that 2+2=7 and human muscle tissue is made out of marshmallow, he has harmed that child. Children aren’t property, and their parents don’t get to do whatever they want.

And, education most certainly can be a public function - it doesn’t have to be, and certainly we can overrely on that aspect of education, but there is nothing “un-conservative” about public education. Conservatives aren’t anarchists, never have been, and never will be. Thankfully.

Lifticus fancies himself as a “stirrer of the pot” who asks the challenging questions. In reality, he is nothing more than cheap philosophical batting practice for anyone with a 10th grade education and lives in the real world.

156

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This just shows you how woefully ignorant you are of the issue of “freedom of choice” – it includes the freedom to not choose to. The “will of the people” is meaningless.

[/quote]

Then you are living in the wrong country, as that is how things are ultimately done here.

If you live on this society, under it’s protection, and partake of ANYTHING paid for by the state, you are subject to the rules.

Don’t like the rules? Then change them. But don’t sit there in your childless house and spout bullshit to me about having a right to choose not to educate your children. That is a responsibility that is beyond law.

Didn’t you used to be a communist? How do you reconcile the fact that you, not so long ago, went on tirades about how the state was the only one who could properly care for society - but now preach an absence of the law as the only true, moral way to live?

You are an ignorant hypocrite.

157

IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age.

158

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There is nothing “ambiguous” about education, or the regulations surrounding the will of the people that all children receive an education of such quality that the child be able to pass a test.

This just shows you how woefully ignorant you are of the issue of “freedom of choice” – it includes the freedom to not choose to. The “will of the people” is meaningless.

It is only the will of the individual that matters. I don’t care what some country bumkin thinks about how a child should be educated and what tests need to be passed.

That is completely irrelevant. It is wrong to force your values onto other people – that is how a democratic state operates by definition.

Then the parent would have to make a choice as to what means more to them: their child, or their way of life.

Again, it is not for the State to decide this. This ultimately means no one really has a choice – or rather it is a false one.

Home. School.

Standardized. Regulated.

But I do think that getting education should be a mandatory pre-requisite for anyone who wishes to do anything past adolescence.

Me too! But it is no ones decision but your own what is best for your children – you may think juggling and Christian mythology is the only curriculum that needs to be bestowed upon your children. Your actions will have consequences.[/quote]

You seem hell bent on returning to the dark ages. Pubic education is a very new concept. Before it’s conception life for the majority of mankind was a dead end. There was no choice or freewill. You were what you were born.

Without education you do not succeed. The rights and freedoms that we experience today are a direct result of an educated population. The right to an education was fought for, it wasn’t given. It’s a right because we made it one.

One of the first financial cuts backs a government will make during hard times is to education. So don’t fool yourself into thinking the government cares. The voting public cares, that’s why we have public education.

Fact school boards are to keep the government out of the daily workings of the school system. They still control the money so they do expect quality results.

The point is our forefathers understood the need for an education. They fought and died so we could have it. Without it we will regress back to the dark ages. Where religous and governing bodies will rule the day.

We struggle to gain more and more control of our lives. We don’t have to deal with the birth right in North America. Our system is set up so the will off the majority rules but the rights of the minority are protected. This was not given to us, we took it and that makes it our right.

Therefore it is our duty to defend it. Freedom is a right, but it has to be fought for. There are those that would not hesitate to take it way from us. Are you one of them, or will you fight to be free. Now remeber if you are stupid you are not free, you would have to depend on smart people to run your life for you.

Something like in China, where the majority of the population is kept uneducated. This allows the governing body to manipulate them. The ignorant are used as grunts in the army, which uses them to control the educated. Something like Tiamin Square.

So basically without education you have only what others want you to have. I fail to see how you can think this would be a good thing.

159

[quote]Sloth wrote:
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age.

“Insurmountable evidence that suggests”? Odd choice of words.

160

[quote]Sloth wrote:
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age.

I heard Shit Head Costas saying something about this just a little bit ago.

I wonder who outbid the Chinese to unsweep this under the rug.