Cheetin' Chinese

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]streamline wrote:
It is always comforting to know that no child in America has ever been groomed for sport. Parents never force their children to particapate in sports.

China is not America. The cultures of these two countries are like night and day. The Chinese are not doing anything different than their fore fathers.

It is easy for Americians to pass judgement on other counties. America has zero history when compared to a country like China. Individuals find it difficult to except change. I would therefore assume it would far more difficult for a country to change.

Even America in all it’s youth. Has a difficult time keeping their nose out of other countries business. A trait they have acquire in their youth, aren’t they going to be fun when they’re older.

China does what China does because it’s China and that’s what the Chinese do. It’s what they have been doing for ever!

It is as likely that America will mind their own business as it is that China will do what other want them to.[/quote]

Are you trying to honestly assert that China “minds it’s own business”?

Mandatory abortions for more than one child, infanticide especially for girls, etc. is just a cultural difference? It has nothing to do with a cruel inhumane government who devalues human life to something slightly above dog shit?

122

Happy moments in the life of a Chinese gymnast:

123

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
And I highly doubt these girls are bing abused. Why would you abuse someone you are taking your time to train and turn into a champion? That seems really illogical to me and since you cannot provide proof of abuse it is a dead argument.[/quote]

We need to define what constitutes abuse. Rigorous training and severe discipline might make champions, but could be construed as abuse; similarly, if lack of performance or bad competition results are punished, is that abuse?

It’s a bit more convoluted than that, isn’t it? You’ll have judges, lawyers and a bunch of people involved before kids get taken away. Let’s not pretend we’re living in The Movie of The Week on ABC…

For one thing, completing a K-12 program is ridiculously easy vs. becoming an Olympic level athlete in any sport.

False dilemma. You forgot the (much more likely) possibility that people are tired of having to educate you in the very basics of the adult world and simply can’t be bothered anymore. You’d be, in fact, still wrong.

There are still other possibilities, but it will be enough to simply point out that “if no one answers, I’m right…” is a ridiculous claim. For anyone.

124

[quote]pat wrote:
streamline wrote:
It is always comforting to know that no child in America has ever been groomed for sport. Parents never force their children to particapate in sports.

China is not America. The cultures of these two countries are like night and day. The Chinese are not doing anything different than their fore fathers.

It is easy for Americians to pass judgement on other counties. America has zero history when compared to a country like China. Individuals find it difficult to except change. I would therefore assume it would far more difficult for a country to change.

Even America in all it’s youth. Has a difficult time keeping their nose out of other countries business. A trait they have acquire in their youth, aren’t they going to be fun when they’re older.

China does what China does because it’s China and that’s what the Chinese do. It’s what they have been doing for ever!

It is as likely that America will mind their own business as it is that China will do what other want them to.

Are you trying to honestly assert that China “minds it’s own business”?

Don’t put word in my mouth. If I have something to say about China I’ll say it.

Mandatory abortions for more than one child, infanticide especially for girls, etc. is just a cultural difference? It has nothing to do with a cruel inhumane government who devalues human life to something slightly above dog shit?[/quote]
With 1.3 billion citizens you think China should allow uncontrolled births. It’s not the government that chooses infanticide, it’s the parents.

There are alot of thinks wrong in the world. China does not have the only bad record. Even Canada up until 10 or so years ago still had residential schools. Where they TOOK! native children from their families and place them in secluded residential schools. They had no contact with family for years. They were forbidden to speak their native language and forced the wear uniforms. They were abuse to a degree that has shamed this country. Our Prime Minister was the first in history to publicly apologize for the actions of our fore fathers.

There are no countries that can say they are squeeky clean. Not even the great USA, which is one country with some very serious race issues. Not to mention the fact that child abuse in the USA is far, far from nonexistant. The justice system fails time and again to crack down and punish these fucktards like they should be.

I’m not saying China isn’t in need of some reform. I’m saying the whole fucking world needs reform.

125

[quote]streamline wrote:
pat wrote:
streamline wrote:
It is always comforting to know that no child in America has ever been groomed for sport. Parents never force their children to particapate in sports.

China is not America. The cultures of these two countries are like night and day. The Chinese are not doing anything different than their fore fathers.

It is easy for Americians to pass judgement on other counties. America has zero history when compared to a country like China. Individuals find it difficult to except change. I would therefore assume it would far more difficult for a country to change.

Even America in all it’s youth. Has a difficult time keeping their nose out of other countries business. A trait they have acquire in their youth, aren’t they going to be fun when they’re older.

China does what China does because it’s China and that’s what the Chinese do. It’s what they have been doing for ever!

It is as likely that America will mind their own business as it is that China will do what other want them to.

Are you trying to honestly assert that China “minds it’s own business”?

Don’t put word in my mouth. If I have something to say about China I’ll say it.

Mandatory abortions for more than one child, infanticide especially for girls, etc. is just a cultural difference? It has nothing to do with a cruel inhumane government who devalues human life to something slightly above dog shit?
With 1.3 billion citizens you think China should allow uncontrolled births. It’s not the government that chooses infanticide, it’s the parents.

There are alot of thinks wrong in the world. China does not have the only bad record. Even Canada up until 10 or so years ago still had residential schools. Where they TOOK! native children from their families and place them in secluded residential schools. They had no contact with family for years. They were forbidden to speak their native language and forced the wear uniforms. They were abuse to a degree that has shamed this country. Our Prime Minister was the first in history to publicly apologize for the actions of our fore fathers.

There are no countries that can say they are squeeky clean. Not even the great USA, which is one country with some very serious race issues. Not to mention the fact that child abuse in the USA is far, far from nonexistant. The justice system fails time and again to crack down and punish these fucktards like they should be.

I’m not saying China isn’t in need of some reform. I’m saying the whole fucking world needs reform.
[/quote]

We have race issues? Racism doesn’t even exist on an small scale where I live.

126

[quote]pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
And I highly doubt these girls are bing abused. Why would you abuse someone you are taking your time to train and turn into a champion? That seems really illogical to me and since you cannot provide proof of abuse it is a dead argument.

We need to define what constitutes abuse. Rigorous training and severe discipline might make champions, but could be construed as abuse; similarly, if lack of performance or bad competition results are punished, is that abuse?

In the US a child can be taken for whatever “good reason” the state comes up with.

It’s a bit more convoluted than that, isn’t it? You’ll have judges, lawyers and a bunch of people involved before kids get taken away. Let’s not pretend we’re living in The Movie of The Week on ABC…

For once I would like an answer. What is the difference between being forced to be educated (for which a child can be removed from a home if the parents do not follow the state’s orders) and being forced into athletic competition? And mind you we are not talking about child abuse.

For one thing, completing a K-12 program is ridiculously easy vs. becoming an Olympic level athlete in any sport.

If an answer cannot be provided then there mustn’t be one and I am in fact correct.

False dilemma. You forgot the (much more likely) possibility that people are tired of having to educate you in the very basics of the adult world and simply can’t be bothered anymore. You’d be, in fact, still wrong.

There are still other possibilities, but it will be enough to simply point out that “if no one answers, I’m right…” is a ridiculous claim. For anyone.

[/quote]
You did not answer the question either. Why is it OKAY for the any government to FORCE parents to comply with MANDATORY STATE education…? What is the fundemental difference?

And I agree that anything can be construed as abuse if someone feels themselves being wronged – that was never a point I was arguing for or against. Plus there is no evidence of physical abuse as far as I am aware. Besides, I don’t think anyone on this board agrees that it is ok to abuse children. This is a strawman argument as I have already stated.

Yes or no: Is it wrong to force children to be educated by a system that the parents don’t fundamentally agree with?

If it is not wrong then why is it right?

If you cannot provide a yes or no answer with qualification this discussion is over and I win.

127

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
And I highly doubt these girls are bing abused. Why would you abuse someone you are taking your time to train and turn into a champion? That seems really illogical to me and since you cannot provide proof of abuse it is a dead argument.

We need to define what constitutes abuse. Rigorous training and severe discipline might make champions, but could be construed as abuse; similarly, if lack of performance or bad competition results are punished, is that abuse?

In the US a child can be taken for whatever “good reason” the state comes up with.

It’s a bit more convoluted than that, isn’t it? You’ll have judges, lawyers and a bunch of people involved before kids get taken away. Let’s not pretend we’re living in The Movie of The Week on ABC…

For once I would like an answer. What is the difference between being forced to be educated (for which a child can be removed from a home if the parents do not follow the state’s orders) and being forced into athletic competition? And mind you we are not talking about child abuse.

For one thing, completing a K-12 program is ridiculously easy vs. becoming an Olympic level athlete in any sport.

If an answer cannot be provided then there mustn’t be one and I am in fact correct.

False dilemma. You forgot the (much more likely) possibility that people are tired of having to educate you in the very basics of the adult world and simply can’t be bothered anymore. You’d be, in fact, still wrong.

There are still other possibilities, but it will be enough to simply point out that “if no one answers, I’m right…” is a ridiculous claim. For anyone.

You did not answer the question either. Why is it OKAY for the any government to FORCE parents to comply with MANDATORY STATE education…? What is the fundemental difference?

And I agree that anything can be construed as abuse if someone feels themselves being wronged – that was never a point I was arguing for or against. Plus there is no evidence of physical abuse as far as I am aware. Besides, I don’t think anyone on this board agrees that it is ok to abuse children. This is a strawman argument as I have already stated.

Yes or no: Is it wrong to force children to be educated by a system that the parents don’t fundamentally agree with?

If it is not wrong then why is it right?

If you cannot provide a yes or no answer with qualification this discussion is over and I win.[/quote]

I think the fundamental difference is that, although the state may force children to go to school, they don’t force them to learn. There is no punishment for not succeeding. So the law is not to force you to learn but to protect the individuals rights. A child can not defend themselves against their parents ignorance. So the state guarantees their right to an education. The learning is up to the individual.

I wonder what other athletes would say if their government offered to train them in their sport and support them as well. All expences taken care of. The best coaches and trainers available. The best equipment in the best facilities. All you have to do is commit yourself to a set period of time and particapate in the greatest sporting event on the planet. Gee that would be a real bitch.

128

[quote]pat wrote:
streamline wrote:
It is always comforting to know that no child in America has ever been groomed for sport. Parents never force their children to particapate in sports.

China is not America. The cultures of these two countries are like night and day. The Chinese are not doing anything different than their fore fathers.

It is easy for Americians to pass judgement on other counties. America has zero history when compared to a country like China. Individuals find it difficult to except change. I would therefore assume it would far more difficult for a country to change.

Even America in all it’s youth. Has a difficult time keeping their nose out of other countries business. A trait they have acquire in their youth, aren’t they going to be fun when they’re older.

China does what China does because it’s China and that’s what the Chinese do. It’s what they have been doing for ever!

It is as likely that America will mind their own business as it is that China will do what other want them to.

Are you trying to honestly assert that China “minds it’s own business”?

Mandatory abortions for more than one child, infanticide especially for girls, etc. is just a cultural difference? It has nothing to do with a cruel inhumane government who devalues human life to something slightly above dog shit?[/quote]

The business of China is unhumanity.

129

[quote]streamline wrote:
…
With 1.3 billion citizens you think China should allow uncontrolled births. It’s not the government that chooses infanticide, it’s the parents.
…
[/quote]

No. The parents chose to do the most natural thing in the world. Have children. That is fundamental to life on Earth. Have offspring to continue.

The state chooses to murder them.

Blaming the victim is reprehensible.

130

http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/hack-olympics.html

131

[quote]streamline wrote:
I think the fundamental difference is that, although the state may force children to go to school, they don’t force them to learn. There is no punishment for not succeeding. So the law is not to force you to learn but to protect the individuals rights. A child can not defend themselves against their parents ignorance. So the state guarantees their right to an education. The learning is up to the individual.[/quote]

First, thank you for answering the question; however, I must disagree with you. Compliance with laws if force and it is always wrong whether it is used to “educate” or make an ahtlete.

Also, education is not a right. It requires scarce resources that first need to be produced and then taken by force in order to give them to someone. It is an ongoing, lifelong process that should not be considered a destination but rather a journey.

Besides this, it does not matter if you take an uneducated child out of the ghetto and give him the best education possible. The desire to learn must come from within and if there is not a parent in the child’s life to reinforce this process that child will never be properly educated.

The government may be able to give a child an education by force but the resources that go into it are ultimately wasted in the process. The old saying “you can lead a horse to water…” applies to everyone in all places. Humans have a free will weather it comes to education or gymnastics.

Agreed. They complain only because it is the “evil Communist Chinese” that do it – and they won. They would not be so consistent in their beliefs if the US gymnastics team benefited from the same practice.

132

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
…

Agreed. They complain only because it is the “evil Communist Chinese” that do it – and they won. They would not be so consistent in their beliefs if the US gymnastics team benefited from the same practice.[/quote]

Complete bullshit. There would be plenty of complaining in America if the government seized children out of their homes and forced them to live at sports schools.

There would also be complaints if there were mandatory abortions and infanticide if people exceeded the governments one child per family rule.

You are a huge hypocrite. First you argue for communism a few years ago. Next you argue against all forms of statism and now you give support to the communists and this behavior.

The only thing consistent is your hatred for the “establishment” in this country. You are a very bitter and illogical man.

133

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
…

Agreed. They complain only because it is the “evil Communist Chinese” that do it – and they won. They would not be so consistent in their beliefs if the US gymnastics team benefited from the same practice.

Complete bullshit. There would be plenty of complaining in America if the government seized children out of their homes and forced them to live at sports schools.

There would also be complaints if there were mandatory abortions and infanticide if people exceeded the governments one child per family rule.

You are a huge hypocrite. First you argue for communism a few years ago. Next you argue against all forms of statism and now you give support to the communists and this behavior.

The only thing consistent is your hatred for the “establishment” in this country. You are a very bitter and illogical man.
[/quote]

Yet there are no complaints of the use of force and coercion to enforce other immoral “laws”.

134

[quote]streamline wrote:
pat wrote:
streamline wrote:
It is always comforting to know that no child in America has ever been groomed for sport. Parents never force their children to particapate in sports.

China is not America. The cultures of these two countries are like night and day. The Chinese are not doing anything different than their fore fathers.

It is easy for Americians to pass judgement on other counties. America has zero history when compared to a country like China. Individuals find it difficult to except change. I would therefore assume it would far more difficult for a country to change.

Even America in all it’s youth. Has a difficult time keeping their nose out of other countries business. A trait they have acquire in their youth, aren’t they going to be fun when they’re older.

China does what China does because it’s China and that’s what the Chinese do. It’s what they have been doing for ever!

It is as likely that America will mind their own business as it is that China will do what other want them to.

Are you trying to honestly assert that China “minds it’s own business”?

Don’t put word in my mouth. If I have something to say about China I’ll say it.

Mandatory abortions for more than one child, infanticide especially for girls, etc. is just a cultural difference? It has nothing to do with a cruel inhumane government who devalues human life to something slightly above dog shit?
With 1.3 billion citizens you think China should allow uncontrolled births. It’s not the government that chooses infanticide, it’s the parents.

There are alot of thinks wrong in the world. China does not have the only bad record. Even Canada up until 10 or so years ago still had residential schools. Where they TOOK! native children from their families and place them in secluded residential schools. They had no contact with family for years. They were forbidden to speak their native language and forced the wear uniforms. They were abuse to a degree that has shamed this country. Our Prime Minister was the first in history to publicly apologize for the actions of our fore fathers.

There are no countries that can say they are squeeky clean. Not even the great USA, which is one country with some very serious race issues. Not to mention the fact that child abuse in the USA is far, far from nonexistant. The justice system fails time and again to crack down and punish these fucktards like they should be.

I’m not saying China isn’t in need of some reform. I’m saying the whole fucking world needs reform.
[/quote]

They are controlling births and the population still grows. Not only that now you have a tremendous disproportion between men and women…Boy that worked like a champ.

When you try to play God, you usually find out the hard way you are not.

135

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
You did not answer the question either. Why is it OKAY for the any government to FORCE parents to comply with MANDATORY STATE education…? What is the fundemental difference?[/quote]

The first fundamental difference is that our laws were made by elected officials and could be changed if enough people wanted it. In China, people have no say in the matter.

Second, quite a bit of lattitude is afforded to the parents. I’m not entirely familiar with the US situation, but here, I can opt for home schooling, alternative schools, international schools, etc. The only demand is that the child be able to pass the government yearly standard tests. A feat doable with about three weeks of schooling for a somewhat smart kid.

I’d like to meet any parents who feel “forced” by the government in regard to their child’s education. Most parents I know want their kids to be educated and the number one complaint I hear is not about being forced to attend school, but about how low the standards have become.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with gymnastics training, but injuries are fairly common occurence. Do you let the child heal in good time, or do you shoot him full of painkillers so that he might continue training?

This is not a strawman argument. Children are easily manipulated and extremely easy to subvert and convince. You can make an injured child want to train… does that constitute abuse? Is the only “abuse” you can entertain of sexual nature?

Sure. But that’s not the situation we live in. There are many alternatives available to parents and having the possibility of home schooling pretty much lets parents do what they want.

I’m not sure that China is so accomodating of Chinese parent’s wishes.

Lovely. Just what this board needs: another idiot who can only comprehend matters in terms of black and white.

Ok.

136

[quote]machiajelly wrote:
http://strydehax.blogspot.com/2008/08/hack-olympics.html

In the Baidu cache, which apparently has not been hit with the scrub brush (yet), two spreadsheets published by the Chinese government on sport.gov.cn both list He Kexin’s birthday as 01-01-1994, making her 14 years old.
[/quote]

That was pretty cool. And it also consistent with all that has been reported as well. The other one, is like 12 or 13…But no they are cheating.

137

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Swiiing and a miss!

All children are abused taken from their homes forced to perform for the state? Really?

You lot did assume the particular gymnast was “abused” and “taken from [her] home”. Maybe you could explain to us how you can be so sure that it wasn’t her choice (and that of her close circle) to try and be the best.[/quote]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368416/Olympics-Pinsent-upset-at-Chinese-'abuse'.html

138

[quote]pookie wrote:
The first fundamental difference is that our laws were made by elected officials and could be changed if enough people wanted it. In China, people have no say in the matter.[/quote]

All I wanted was an answer that did not include pejorative remarks – though they are still quite funny even when directed at me.

I think being forced to do something is a black and white issue. I either do it because I want to or do it because I am being forced to.

There are a very small minority of people who do not wish to comply with governmental standards and I think they should not have to. And I don’t need to remind you that democratically issued laws can still be immoral.

139

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pookie wrote:
The first fundamental difference is that our laws were made by elected officials and could be changed if enough people wanted it. In China, people have no say in the matter.

All I wanted was an answer that did not include pejorative remarks – though they are still quite funny even when directed at me.

I think being forced to do something is a black and white issue. I either do it because I want to or do it because I am being forced to.

There are a very small minority of people who do not wish to comply with governmental standards and I think they should not have to. And I don’t need to remind you that democratically issued laws can still be immoral.[/quote]

There is nothing immoral about education, or about forcing children to be educated.

There is no law - at least not in Texas - that states a child must be educated in a state supported school. The only law is that they pass an standardized test to prove they have been educated.

I can teach my kids at home, send them to private school, a charter school, or to a public school.

Children should have no say in what they are allowed to do, or not do. They are incapable of making such a decision. The fact that adults have given children a say is the very reason teachers are allowed carry in at least one Texas school district.

Your notion that education is immoral is idiocy. There is no self-respecting parent that would not allow their children to be educated.

The idiocy is in the absolute goat screw that has become public education.

140

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
…

Agreed. They complain only because it is the “evil Communist Chinese” that do it – and they won. They would not be so consistent in their beliefs if the US gymnastics team benefited from the same practice.

Complete bullshit. There would be plenty of complaining in America if the government seized children out of their homes and forced them to live at sports schools.

There would also be complaints if there were mandatory abortions and infanticide if people exceeded the governments one child per family rule.

You are a huge hypocrite. First you argue for communism a few years ago. Next you argue against all forms of statism and now you give support to the communists and this behavior.

The only thing consistent is your hatred for the “establishment” in this country. You are a very bitter and illogical man.

Yet there are no complaints of the use of force and coercion to enforce other immoral “laws”.[/quote]

Like the one that says you cannot shit in the street?

By your ridiculous definitions all laws of men are immoral.