Chad's Weirding Me Out...

[quote]knuckles wrote:
Fightin’ Irish, if I am treated with respect, I reciprocate. If I make a joking remark and am flamed for it, fuck it.

I honestly expected someone to say, “Haha, yeah, I wondered what was up with that, here’s what I think” etc. But you’re all a bunch of fanboys. It’s absolutely ridiculous. [/quote]

It isn’t possible to tell emotion, sarcasm, etc. on the internet. That’s the reason I say you may want to phrase your questions better.

Johnathon Swift once wrote an essay called “A modest proposal” in which he advocated eating the children of Ireland in order to reduce the overpopulation, limit the number of Papists, and feed the poor. However, he was known as a satirist, so people could conclude that he was kidding. The same does not apply to you, me, or anyone who isn’t recognized as a constant smartass. So, just as in real life, be respectful. No harm comes from it.

I thought the bit about wanting some of his stuff might’ve given away the light flavor but I suppose not. Good advice tho…

See, now it’s late and I’m getting soft. Damn.

[quote]knuckles wrote:
OneEye wrote:
If you can’t understand what neural pathways have to do with lifting, there’s nothing I can do to help. You need to go back to school.

Neural pathways are groups of neurons that transmit electrical signals from the brain and spinal cord to motor neurons. The motor neurons then release chemicals which cause muscle fibers to contract. I get it. I loved biology.

My question still stands.[/quote]

Results speak for themselves. CW is one of the top coaches in the country, and it isn’t because he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Why don’t you just take your smart ass into his next Prime Time thread and have it out with him personally. I’m not going to waste any more time on you.

You appear to be aware of the termonology so maybe this will help. The brain sends action potentials to the muscle to contract them…the more it sends the more it contracts. When the brain is bothered with counting, even just a little, this takes away from the number of action potentials it can send to the muscle…thus a less forceful contraction…thus an unsuccessful lift.

There is no disrespect in this message, and I hope it clears something up.

[quote]knuckles wrote:
Fightin’ Irish, if I am treated with respect, I reciprocate. If I make a joking remark and am flamed for it, fuck it.

I honestly expected someone to say, “Haha, yeah, I wondered what was up with that, here’s what I think” etc. But you’re all a bunch of fanboys. It’s absolutely ridiculous. [/quote]

Fanboys? I haven’t even read any of his articles. I simply understand the concept. You clearly have much to learn…regardless of who informs you of the principle.

I count during lifts, and it usually goes like this: ONnnn…nnnnE, TWooo…ooO, THr…eeE, Ffo…ouR, Fi…vvE.

In between i inhale, and the dots means i exhale. Does that count too?

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
pookie
once again trying to prove how smart you think you are is making you look dumber than you probably are.

I think we could all agree that focusing on something other than your lift while doing maximal poundages would have a negative effect on the result.[/quote]

Look, it might be true, I don’t know. I simply don’t understand why someone devises a test for it by using a completely different protocol.

If you want to test the impact of counting tempo, test the impact of counting tempo; not the impact of counting backwards from 100 by 2s out loud.

Another question might be does it have the same impact with a 10RM weight than with a 3RM weight. The closer you come to a 1RM, the harder the rep will be and the more total concentration will be required.

The impact might also not be the same for all exercises. Squatting involves the most muscles; it might be affected more than, say, military presses. Choosing the most difficult exercise and a more complicated tempo makes it look as if the test was designed to prove a point, rather than to find out the actual impact of counting tempo.

Last thought: Counting tempo might reduce performance at first, but eventually have no impact as you train for it. Football players are able to play at a high level of exertion while remembering the current play. The impact of counting tempo might subside after a few days or weeks of doing it, as it becomes “instinctual”.

Let’s keep in mind that other reknowned coaches such as Poliquin and King swear by tempo and they get results for their athletes. If they’d noticed worse results from counting tempo than not, wouldn’t they have dropped that method?

[quote]pookie wrote:
Last thought: Counting tempo might reduce performance at first, but eventually have no impact as you train for it. Football players are able to play at a high level of exertion while remembering the current play. The impact of counting tempo might subside after a few days or weeks of doing it, as it becomes “instinctual”.
[/quote]

This should have been your “first thought” because it is the only truly valid point you’ve made. My lifting is usually no more than the concept of “letting the weight drop slower than I lift it”. I put more emphasis on the negative. I couldn’t tell you exactly how many seconds it took during curls last night to drop the weight during a rep. I just know I lowered the weight under control slightly slower than I lifted it. Any more counting than that would take away from my focus…because I am lifting so heavy that it takes everything I have to push beyond the point at which I feel the initial urge to quit. That has become instinctual for me. I truly question the amount of strength or intensity involved in someone who is truly counting during a rep. Actually COUNTING is more than just instinctual. It takes focus to keep score no matter what the activity. You mentioned a couple of trainers. If someone has someone else count for them, you take away that aspect meaning it is not the same as someone counting for themselves during a rep.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Last thought: Counting tempo might reduce performance at first, but eventually have no impact as you train for it. Football players are able to play at a high level of exertion while remembering the current play. The impact of counting tempo might subside after a few days or weeks of doing it, as it becomes “instinctual”.[/quote]

Totally, the ability to multitask is a skill that can be developed. Consider the act of playing guitar (or drums, or tambourine) and singing a song with a different rhythm. It is quite difficult at first, you need to learn how to separate the ‘channels’ as much as possible so that you can do one thing without it interfering with the other.

Rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time… swinging one arm forwards and the other backwards, then switching each arm independantly takes some practise too.

My capoeira professor is able to sing or perform commentary on his gymnastic movements as he leaps around the place. We spend some time in our training learning to develop a ‘wider focus’.

However, I think the skill of learning to count while you lift (and having the minimal effect on your lifts) may have some small value to learn. I just thought it would be cool to put in my own 2c about considering this as an actual skill of its own… In simple and uneducated terms its ‘separating the right from the left brain’

[quote]perseng wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Last thought: Counting tempo might reduce performance at first, but eventually have no impact as you train for it. Football players are able to play at a high level of exertion while remembering the current play. The impact of counting tempo might subside after a few days or weeks of doing it, as it becomes “instinctual”.

Totally, the ability to multitask is a skill that can be developed. Consider the act of playing guitar (or drums, or tambourine) and singing a song with a different rhythm. It is quite difficult at first, you need to learn how to separate the ‘channels’ as much as possible so that you can do one thing without it interfering with the other.[/quote]

This is slightly different. I play an instrument as well and the counting of rhythm doesn’t take more than a four count. I tap my feet to the correct pace, but I don’t actually count out “1, 2, 3, 4”, aside from when I first learned music. You simply keep pace…not count out the pace.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
This should have been your “first thought” because it is the only truly valid point you’ve made. My lifting is usually no more than the concept of “letting the weight drop slower than I lift it”. I put more emphasis on the negative. I couldn’t tell you exactly how many seconds it took during curls last night to drop the weight during a rep. I just know I lowered the weight under control slightly slower than I lifted it. Any more counting than that would take away from my focus…because I am lifting so heavy that it takes everything I have to push beyond the point at which I feel the initial urge to quit. That has become instinctual for me. I truly question the amount of strength or intensity involved in someone who is truly counting during a rep. Actually COUNTING is more than just instinctual. It takes focus to keep score no matter what the activity. You mentioned a couple of trainers. If someone has someone else count for them, you take away that aspect meaning it is not the same as someone counting for themselves during a rep.[/quote]

My other points mainly question the method used to objectively determine the impact, if any, of counting tempo while lifting. I feel it is biased towards proving that it does, rather than trying to find out the objective truth. Feel free to disagree.

I don’t count tempo when I train either, as I often train alone and am quite content with lifting explosively and lowering under control. The only time I tried it, I wrote a small program that would “beep” the desired tempo for me to follow. One interesting effect from counting tempo was that I knew when I broke form, as I would get out of step with the beeps. This often occured sooner than my desired rep range.

You’re right that counting requires some concentration. The question is: does it require enough that it detracts from the actual performance. My feeling is that it doesn’t matter enough to make a difference, unless you’re doing very low RMs, in which case tempo doesn’t matter as you’re just barely in control of the weight anyway.

On last issue that hasn’t been touched on is the need for the various coaches to distinguish themselves from their competition. If every coach follows Poliquin’s methods, then they’re just derivative, not innovative. Coaches need to devise methods to call their own. In doing so, they’ll also often be critical of other coaches’s methods. I’ve seen people call Staley’s EDT “misguided”, Bryan Haycock’s HST labelled “unscientific” when it’s completely based on studies, etc. As far as I can tell, most methods will work as long as you slowly increase the workload. The rest is details.

I don’t understand why people are getting so worked up about this issue. If someone’s getting better results from tempo counting, fine. If not, then don’t do it. People get so committed to their “side”, it’s simply ridiculous. I don’t really care whether someone counts tempo or not; I’m simply surprised that so many people feel that Chad’s testing method was the correct testing protocol.

I think the point Chad was trying to make was that many times people try to over-complicate things when lifting, what they should be concentrating on it lifting more weight. I think most people would agree with this. However I also think that there is also a place for lifting at slower more controled speeds, for example when training external rotators, calves, learning a new lifting pattern/movement, ect. Which I also thinkg that most people would agree with.

The argument about comparing CW’s test to “normal” rep counting is valid, however I agree with Chad on this one because his argument is based in science.

Voluntary movement, a muscle contraction starts with an intention in the cerebral cortex area known as the pre-central gyrus or primary motor cortex. The signal then travels down from the brain in the pyramidal system and into the spinal cord. The spinal nerves that exit the neural foramina then carry the nerve impulse to the muscle or muscles being called to action by one?s intention. This is a very, very simplified explanation. There is also the influence of the cerebellum and the extra-pyramidal system as well but since it is involuntary it is not as important to this discussion.

The place were the muscle meets the nerve is called the neuromuscular junction. Once here it takes a certain threshold to activate the muscle. The contraction takes place by summation ie. the more motor units called to contract the stronger the contraction. A motor unit is a motor neuron and all the muscle fibers it innervates, again a very simplified explanation.

In simple terms the stronger the intention, the stronger the contraction and anything that distracts from that process weakens the contraction and the force generated by the muscle lessening the amount of fibers that contract, which decreases the potential for growth because it is the fast twitch fibers that have the greatest potential for growth but are not "called into action? until the level of force that needs to be generated coaxes them enough.

The body works efficiently as possible so it will do as little as it needs to in order to get a task done meaning if it only needs to use the intermediate to slow twitch fibers to get a task done it will, because that costs the body less in terms of energy devoted to the task. And slow twitch and intermediate twitch fibers have less potential for growth. This is where I believe CW?s main point lies.

Hope this helps.

P.S. People spend years studying the musculoskeletal system and the nervous system and the concepts related to them. The ability to understand the concepts of the muscle and nervous systems takes time and diligent studying. It is not simple; the human body is very complex and amazing.

I do not know CW from a hole in the wall but in one of his recent articles where he talked about critical thinking and applying to weight training I saw someone who actual knew his stuff like Berardi knows nutrition. And believe me a PhD and the amount of work and knowledge it takes to achieve is mind-boggling so try to refrain from calling things into question you do not understand. A question on why this or that is, is not the same as saying someone is wrong because you think so or because the majority of trainers follow TUT like it is the Bible.

Jeep

[quote]Professor X wrote:
perseng wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Last thought: Counting tempo might reduce performance at first, but eventually have no impact as you train for it. Football players are able to play at a high level of exertion while remembering the current play. The impact of counting tempo might subside after a few days or weeks of doing it, as it becomes “instinctual”.

Totally, the ability to multitask is a skill that can be developed. Consider the act of playing guitar (or drums, or tambourine) and singing a song with a different rhythm. It is quite difficult at first, you need to learn how to separate the ‘channels’ as much as possible so that you can do one thing without it interfering with the other.

This is slightly different. I play an instrument as well and the counting of rhythm doesn’t take more than a four count. I tap my feet to the correct pace, but I don’t actually count out “1, 2, 3, 4”, aside from when I first learned music. You simply keep pace…not count out the pace.[/quote]

i believe this is the same thing and has to do with what’s learned and controlled by the subconscious, which waaay faster and efficient at processing muscle movement and what’s being overidden by the conscious mind (counting). this to me is what the word “training” is all about.

many complex rhythms i can play i won’t be able to play when i try to count them out aloud. in fact this is the basis of alot of my daily practice: adding load to what i’ve already learned by challenging myself to be able to count aloud while playing. the next step is increase the load further by adding accents and syncopation to certain beats
and counting those aloud,while playing.

for example i’m tapping out a basic polyrhythm right now: a 2 count w/ the accent on 1 with my left hand and a 3 count w/ the accent on 1 w/my right. basic hemiola, 2 against 3 both starting at 1. i can perform this with my hands but cannot count either the 1,2 or the 1,2,3, out loud while playing. further load is trying to accent only the 1’s. then accent the 2’s. then accent the 1 and 3 the first time and the 2 the second and voila a whole new rhythm is born.

but here’s the relevant point: it’s not the voice that fails it’s the hands that fail and can no longer tap the rhythm when i try to add the voice. it’s a breaking point, a moment of overload, the straw that breaks the camel’s back etc.

its damn hard sometimes because you’re at the limit of what your brain can do until it learns to process more information subconsciously.

counting aloud in progressively more complicated ways is a major tool for alot of musicians to find weak points in a piece- the spots that are likely to to break down when there’s distraction.

i work the hell out of those spots adding load in every way i can think of precisely because something as simple as counting is a load and those who don’t understand this to be so have simply never done anything at its very limit of performance for any length of time.

this is also a major component of stage fright, when your conscious mind is hyper-aware and wishes to control everything but it’s too slow and clumsy and will never be able to flow the way the subconscious can if you’ve put in the time to train an absolutely flawless technique. thus the performance fails even if performed flawlessly minutes before.

Also…when done enough times, actions eventaully become “reflexes”, which is an action you dont actively think out. Swallowing is a reflex, you don’t think to yourself “okay…chew…now use my toungue to move the food back, okay swallow…move the food down to the stomach…”

It just happens after a while, So i suppose after a long enough time keeping tempo, it might turn into a reflex.

I can’t believe how much attention this troll has gotten on this thread. He is a little punk ass that isn’t going to be persuaded by any amount of reasoning. Logic doesn’t compute in his neanderthal-like brain. Remember, he is 160 lbs. Obviously a highly-trained animal compared to CW. Also, he is of superior intelligence to 9 year old boys. Hahahahahahahaa!!!

Lonnie and Swivel, those were informative posts. It’s my impression that the human brain is not understood very well, so Chad’s post sounded more like science fiction than science to my ears. But that could just be the result of no real education on the subject matter. Normally though, I’m pretty well acquainted with the terminology used in various scientific fields.

Like experiment. Hahahaha.

And, to me, it’s very obvious not to overcomplicate your training. I worry about lifting heavy and hard and eating, and that’s about it. Everything else I try to learn through experience instead of planning it out (for example, I avoid any program that is designed to prevent overtraining). I think in the long run my training will benefit from it.

Pure Al

The only way to get rid of him is to ignore him. Every response fuels his ego and lengthens his 15 minutes.

[quote]randman wrote:
I can’t believe how much attention this troll has gotten on this thread. He is a little punk ass that isn’t going to be persuaded by any amount of reasoning. Logic doesn’t compute in his neanderthal-like brain. Remember, he is 160 lbs. Obviously a highly-trained animal compared to CW. Also, he is of superior intelligence to 9 year old boys. Hahahahahahahaa!!![/quote]

If you can’t believe how much attention I’ve gotten, then why are you still posting, pea brain? I’ll tell you why I’ve gotten so much attention. Because many board members can’t handle the fact that someone disagrees with an author, I haven’t been training very long, I do not have my high school diploma, I’m not polite, and I don’t give a fuck if you think that makes my opinion less valid.

Not to sound narcisstic or conceited (it will anyways), but you’re practically at the same level I am; 4 inches taller and not even 40 pounds heavier? I doubt you’re much stronger either. How much do you bench? 265? I suppose you squat in the high 300s? Buddy, I’ll have those numbers in 6 months.