[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
So criticizing the Church its crimes and hypocrisy amounts to hating? You’d fit right in with the Scientologists.[/quote]
Dredging them up, over and over again as proof that the whole damn thing is messed up because people in it fucked up is hating on it. You haven’t really shown you know anything about Catholicism at all. You have the CNN understanding of the faith.
I seriously doubt I have anything in common with Scientologists. I am a little skeptical about the whole “Body Thetan” thing.[/quote]
Oh where to start? Hummmm. Let’s start with the whole “you’re gonna go to hell and never reach salvation unless you behave in the way we tell you to” thing.
[/quote]
How about the whole thing where that is not what the Catholic Church teaches? How about the fact that the Church teaches that only Jesus can save you, because he is final Judge and most just, and faith and works will not save you?
Oh and by the way, I check the Catechism before answering this question. No where does the Catholic Church condemn people like you said to Hell. Excommunication is the consequence for condemning someone to Hell.[/quote]
Sorry for the delayed response but I’m in the process of moving and am currently without my home computer (and TV) during the week. Slight withdrawal going on, but I’m considering it somewhat of a detox, so its all good.
First of all, I’d like to be clear that I’m not in a bookish phase of life right now and am highly unlikely to “check the Catechism”. I’m not dissing it by any means. I’m giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s perfectly lovely in every way. I’m basing my opinions on my own real life brief experiences of the Catholic Church, but mostly from interacting with family and friends who are either happy Catholics, unhappy Catholics or former (recovering) Catholics.
Perhaps I should have used the word ‘sin’ instead of ‘hell’. And I’m NOT referring to the obvious and irrefutable sins of killing, stealing and adultering. I’m referring to the various other ways the C.C. passes judgement and makes its members feel shamed or unworthy: not going to mass regularly, not supporting the church financially when you have the means, not sending the kids to parochial school, not supporting the fund raiser du jour, etc. Then there are the endless sins surrounding sex. Of course, with all this sinning going on, one MUST stay in the C.C. and ‘get right’. Because they claim to be the only true Church, you are royally screwed if you leave. So there it is…no salvation with out the C.C. If THAT doesn’t scare the bejesus out of the masses (sheep), nothing will. THAT is ruling by fear.
Other than that, I like the C.C. Especially their architecture.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
Oh where to start? Hummmm. Let’s start with the whole “you’re gonna go to hell and never reach salvation unless you behave in the way we tell you to” thing.
[/quote]
How about the whole thing where that is not what the Catholic Church teaches? How about the fact that the Church teaches that only Jesus can save you, because he is final Judge and most just, and faith and works will not save you?
Oh and by the way, I check the Catechism before answering this question. No where does the Catholic Church condemn people like you said to Hell. Excommunication is the consequence for condemning someone to Hell.[/quote]
Sorry for the delayed response but I’m in the process of moving and am currently without my home computer (and TV) during the week. Slight withdrawal going on, but I’m considering it somewhat of a detox, so its all good.
First of all, I’d like to be clear that I’m not in a bookish phase of life right now and am highly unlikely to “check the Catechism”. I’m not dissing it by any means. I’m giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming it’s perfectly lovely in every way. I’m basing my opinions on my own real life brief experiences of the Catholic Church, but mostly from interacting with family and friends who are either happy Catholics, unhappy Catholics or former (recovering) Catholics.
Perhaps I should have used the word ‘sin’ instead of ‘hell’. And I’m NOT referring to the obvious and irrefutable sins of killing, stealing and adultering. I’m referring to the various other ways the C.C. passes judgement and makes its members feel shamed or unworthy: not going to mass regularly, not supporting the church financially when you have the means, not sending the kids to parochial school, not supporting the fund raiser du jour, etc. Then there are the endless sins surrounding sex. Of course, with all this sinning going on, one MUST stay in the C.C. and ‘get right’. Because they claim to be the only true Church, you are royally screwed if you leave. So there it is…no salvation with out the C.C. If THAT doesn’t scare the bejesus out of the masses (sheep), nothing will. THAT is ruling by fear.
Other than that, I like the C.C. Especially their architecture. [/quote]
Well it is a sin to not go to Mass on Sunday. Well, the OT does tell us to pay a man for his work. Never heard of the school thing. Not sure what you mean by the fun raiser. There is not endless sins around sex, no sex outside marriage and no sex that artificially frustrates procreation.
You’re correct on the one of the last parts, there is no salvation outside the Church.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
[/quote]
Catholic God? Didn’t know there was a Catholic God.
Dogma’s = truths that you have to believe or you are not in communion with the Church. Unfortunately many Catholics do not know what the Dogmas are. “Fall in line” referring to works, that is untrue.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
Let’s not flame eachother, I’d just like to get a sampling of what you all think of the Catholic Church, it’s role, it’s validity, it’s agenda etcetera.
I was a devout Catholic who recently quit and rejected pretty much all of it.
I’d like to see what other lifters think.[/quote]
Catholic Church is a powerfull institution you want on your side,if anything else.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
[/quote]
Yeah! Atheists should be able to be in communion, too!. I mean, I mean, um, I mean, that to be in communion with the Church, you should be able to believe whatever. So like, the Church should be like a multicultural, diversity seeking, MTV beach party you know, right? And like, Catholics, who want catholicism, should totally not be in communion with the church, amiright? They could start their own thang. But then, like, when someone joins, but wants to change, like, everything, you know, they (the founders) should have to like leave again, and start their own another thang, gnomewhutImsaying? It’d probably even stop global warming.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
I’m sorry to tell you that your parents and your friend may think they know what Catholicism is about and what it teaches, but as many Catholics today, they are totally misinformed about thier faith.[/quote]
Yes this is true, many Catholics and many more Christians are deeply misinformed. What a priest or pastor says is coming from a human being who is also a victim of their own vices and shortcomings.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
I’m sorry to tell you that your parents and your friend may think they know what Catholicism is about and what it teaches, but as many Catholics today, they are totally misinformed about thier faith.[/quote]
Yes this is true, many Catholics and many more Christians are deeply misinformed. What a priest or pastor says is coming from a human being who is also a victim of their own vices and shortcomings.[/quote]
Well, now. That is true, that is why as a Catholic you’re supposed to question, read, learn, &c.
Just to chime in on the you-have-to-be-Catholic-to-go-Heaven nonsense. This is not the Catholic Church’s teaching. While the Church does believe that those exposed to the faith will have to answer to God on why they didn’t follow it, no where does the Church say they are going to hell. God is greater than all, and if he forgives someone who has gone astray, that person may enter Heaven. For people not exposed to Catholicism, the Church teaches they may also be saved by God’s grace.
Any other teachings would be contradictory to the Bible. How could God tell the Jews, you will all enter Heaven, and then come back and say, on second thought you have to be Christian, sorry for any confusion?
[quote]McG78 wrote:
Just to chime in on the you-have-to-be-Catholic-to-go-Heaven nonsense.
[/quote]
The correct dogma is titled Suprema Haec Sacra which states, “extra ecclesiam, nulla salus” which translates into outside the Church, no salvation.
You’re not entirely correct. The Church never says anyone is going to Hell (that gets people excommunicated). However, when the Church teaches infallibly extra ecclesiam, nulla salus it does not teach that non-Catholics cannot be saved. But, it affirms the opposite. The purpose is to teach us HOW Jesus Christ makes salvation possible for all human beings. Easiest way being in the Catholic Church.
However let’s look at what the Vatican II phrases it:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences�¢??those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
And, let’s look at the CCC and how the say it:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
“Implicit desire and longing” exists in the souls of those who seek God, but are ignorant of the means to receive his grace. People all over the world long for salvation but don’t know the Church. If a man has a desire or longing, he has implicit desire for membership in the Church. Protestants know Christ, but some do not know His Church. Their implicit desire to serve him, the desire to be members of His Church. John Paul II said that folks of another fold can be saved as well. If they seek God with a “sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church.
[quote]
Any other teachings would be contradictory to the Bible. How could God tell the Jews, you will all enter Heaven, and then come back and say, on second thought you have to be Christian, sorry for any confusion?[/quote]
Lol, I will let someone else take this last one, but I will say God never promised all the Jews that they will go to Heaven. And, I have homework.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
[/quote]
Well, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about then because that is not the teaching of the church. You can actually look up the Catechism on line if you actually want to know what is taught. Or you can keep leveling baseless accusations based on hate.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
Just to chime in on the you-have-to-be-Catholic-to-go-Heaven nonsense.
[/quote]
The correct dogma is titled Suprema Haec Sacra which states, “extra ecclesiam, nulla salus” which translates into outside the Church, no salvation.
You’re not entirely correct. The Church never says anyone is going to Hell (that gets people excommunicated). However, when the Church teaches infallibly extra ecclesiam, nulla salus it does not teach that non-Catholics cannot be saved. But, it affirms the opposite. The purpose is to teach us HOW Jesus Christ makes salvation possible for all human beings. Easiest way being in the Catholic Church.
However let’s look at what the Vatican II phrases it:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences�?�¢??those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
And, let’s look at the CCC and how the say it:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
“Implicit desire and longing” exists in the souls of those who seek God, but are ignorant of the means to receive his grace. People all over the world long for salvation but don’t know the Church. If a man has a desire or longing, he has implicit desire for membership in the Church. Protestants know Christ, but some do not know His Church. Their implicit desire to serve him, the desire to be members of His Church. John Paul II said that folks of another fold can be saved as well. If they seek God with a “sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church.
[quote]
Any other teachings would be contradictory to the Bible. How could God tell the Jews, you will all enter Heaven, and then come back and say, on second thought you have to be Christian, sorry for any confusion?[/quote]
Lol, I will let someone else take this last one, but I will say God never promised all the Jews that they will go to Heaven. And, I have homework.[/quote]
One, I don’t see how my statement was “not entirely correct.” It stated exactly what yours said; i.e., For people exposed to the faith, they will have to be reconciled with God. For people not exposed to the faith, they can enter Heaven through the grace of God.
Two, as to your “LOL” comment, look at Gen. 13:15 for an example. God’s tells Abraham that the promise land will be his and his descendants forever. There are numerous other examples.
Three, you act enlightened,and you seem to know a lot; but don’t get holier-than-thou and act if you know all.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
[/quote]
Well, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about then because that is not the teaching of the church. You can actually look up the Catechism on line if you actually want to know what is taught. Or you can keep leveling baseless accusations based on hate. [/quote]
Relax. I am far from hating. Just because I expressed an opinion different than yours doesn’t mean I’m a hater. I am actually pleased to learn that the Catechism doesn’t teach it that way. And no, as previously mentioned, I not going to read it. I’ll take your scholarly word for it.
But, as it’s been discussed in this thread, many Catholics aren’t teaching or living their faith that way. My opinions are based conversations with the many catholics that I know, not the Catechism.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
I’m sorry to tell you that your parents and your friend may think they know what Catholicism is about and what it teaches, but as many Catholics today, they are totally misinformed about thier faith.[/quote]
Yes this is true, many Catholics and many more Christians are deeply misinformed. What a priest or pastor says is coming from a human being who is also a victim of their own vices and shortcomings.[/quote]
Well, now. That is true, that is why as a Catholic you’re supposed to question, read, learn, &c.[/quote]
I am Catholic BC and that is what I do. Since I was a kid I never took everything literally and I think that is the biggest problem with religion today. People take everything they are told and do not question. While I do not agree with how Bill Mahr went about it in Religulous, his closing argument does make sense especially with doubt being humble and necessary compared to the arrogant certitude which often does characterize religion.
[quote]kamui wrote:
as an atheist, i will still say we all have a lot to learned from the Catholic Church
because the Church is truly an expert at survival.
[/quote]
I would agree. They survive and protect their power base by instilling fear.[/quote]
Interesting, by what method do they instill this said fear?[/quote]
Mostly by getting their members to believe that their way is the only way. That the Catholic God is the only true God. That they must fall in line with the C.C.s dogma or be subject to eternity without true salvation. That’s a pretty fearful line if you buy it.
[/quote]
Well, you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about then because that is not the teaching of the church. You can actually look up the Catechism on line if you actually want to know what is taught. Or you can keep leveling baseless accusations based on hate. [/quote]
Relax. I am far from hating. Just because I expressed an opinion different than yours doesn’t mean I’m a hater. I am actually pleased to learn that the Catechism doesn’t teach it that way. And no, as previously mentioned, I not going to read it. I’ll take your scholarly word for it.
But, as it’s been discussed in this thread, many Catholics aren’t teaching or living their faith that way. My opinions are based conversations with the many catholics that I know, not the Catechism. [/quote]
You’re opinion came across as judgment with out basis in fact; and through no fault of your own, I am a little testy these days.
It is true that many Catholics don’t behave as they proclaim, but in general most people do not hold fast to the values they claim to hold. I to fuck up often, but there is more to it then whether people who claim a faith or view behave badly. There is plenty of bad behaviour to go around. There is goodness there and that’s what I hold on to.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
Just to chime in on the you-have-to-be-Catholic-to-go-Heaven nonsense.
[/quote]
The correct dogma is titled Suprema Haec Sacra which states, “extra ecclesiam, nulla salus” which translates into outside the Church, no salvation.
You’re not entirely correct. The Church never says anyone is going to Hell (that gets people excommunicated). However, when the Church teaches infallibly extra ecclesiam, nulla salus it does not teach that non-Catholics cannot be saved. But, it affirms the opposite. The purpose is to teach us HOW Jesus Christ makes salvation possible for all human beings. Easiest way being in the Catholic Church.
However let’s look at what the Vatican II phrases it:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences�??�??�??�?�¢??those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
And, let’s look at the CCC and how the say it:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
“Implicit desire and longing” exists in the souls of those who seek God, but are ignorant of the means to receive his grace. People all over the world long for salvation but don’t know the Church. If a man has a desire or longing, he has implicit desire for membership in the Church. Protestants know Christ, but some do not know His Church. Their implicit desire to serve him, the desire to be members of His Church. John Paul II said that folks of another fold can be saved as well. If they seek God with a “sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church.
I don’t know shit, not even close to being enlightened. Hell, every time I open one of these threads my palms get sweaty just thinking about the possibility of saying the wrong thing.
If people are exposed, and by that you mean at one time accept the faith as truth, then later do not accept it as truth. They are pretty much screwed. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, they have denied the divine. However, as I quoted above, there are a lot of people that see the external of the Church, but do not know the internal as they miss the fruit of Her blessed hands.
Oh and about the Holier-than-thou comment, that is ridiculous. Anyone here will tell you, especially Tirib, that I am the least of all of the low. I would never imagine myself holier than anyone. Because honestly, who gives a shit when you’re still so far away from being as Holy as Jesus. It’s like two Jewish slaves pretending one is freer than the other before Moses came along, when in fact the Pharaoh has them both beat by a mile.
About Gen 13:15, I think you be taken that too far matey! Abram’s seed is the faithful to God. Compared to the seed of Lot, the ones that were “sinners before the face of the Lord.” This includes the Jews, but does not mean all Jews. Even so, early Catholics were Jews. Jews crucified Jesus, do you really suppose that those that crucified Jesus are going to be saved? As well Jesus and the Catholic Church fulfill part of the Jewish prophecy.
[quote]McG78 wrote:
Just to chime in on the you-have-to-be-Catholic-to-go-Heaven nonsense.
[/quote]
The correct dogma is titled Suprema Haec Sacra which states, “extra ecclesiam, nulla salus” which translates into outside the Church, no salvation.
You’re not entirely correct. The Church never says anyone is going to Hell (that gets people excommunicated). However, when the Church teaches infallibly extra ecclesiam, nulla salus it does not teach that non-Catholics cannot be saved. But, it affirms the opposite. The purpose is to teach us HOW Jesus Christ makes salvation possible for all human beings. Easiest way being in the Catholic Church.
However let’s look at what the Vatican II phrases it:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their consciences�??�??�??�??�?�¢??those too may achieve eternal salvation (LG 16).
Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery (Gaudium et Spes 22).
And, let’s look at the CCC and how the say it:
Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).
“Implicit desire and longing” exists in the souls of those who seek God, but are ignorant of the means to receive his grace. People all over the world long for salvation but don’t know the Church. If a man has a desire or longing, he has implicit desire for membership in the Church. Protestants know Christ, but some do not know His Church. Their implicit desire to serve him, the desire to be members of His Church. John Paul II said that folks of another fold can be saved as well. If they seek God with a “sincere heart.” In that seeking they are “related” to Christ and to his body the Church.
I don’t know shit, not even close to being enlightened. Hell, every time I open one of these threads my palms get sweaty just thinking about the possibility of saying the wrong thing.
If people are exposed, and by that you mean at one time accept the faith as truth, then later do not accept it as truth. They are pretty much screwed. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, they have denied the divine. However, as I quoted above, there are a lot of people that see the external of the Church, but do not know the internal as they miss the fruit of Her blessed hands.
Oh and about the Holier-than-thou comment, that is ridiculous. Anyone here will tell you, especially Tirib, that I am the least of all of the low. I would never imagine myself holier than anyone. Because honestly, who gives a shit when you’re still so far away from being as Holy as Jesus. It’s like two Jewish slaves pretending one is freer than the other before Moses came along, when in fact the Pharaoh has them both beat by a mile.
About Gen 13:15, I think you be taken that too far matey! Abram’s seed is the faithful to God. Compared to the seed of Lot, the ones that were “sinners before the face of the Lord.” This includes the Jews, but does not mean all Jews. Even so, early Catholics were Jews. Jews crucified Jesus, do you really suppose that those that crucified Jesus are going to be saved? As well Jesus and the Catholic Church fulfill part of the Jewish prophecy.[/quote]
While you could (and many Christians do) make the argument that Jews who don’t follow Christ and are not entitled to the Kingdom of Heaven because they are no longer faithful, John Paul II’s reconciliation with the Jewish faith was about realizing we are part of the same holy family. John Paul II’s monumental comment calling the Jewish religion our “elder brother” signified that Christians and Jews are part of the same family not separate religions.
As for your “do you really suppose that those that crucified Jesus are going to be saved” comment, my answer is yes. In fact, I believe that Judas holds a special place in Christianity. I believe Judas was the only disciple that Jesus called “friend.” Additionally, Jesus had to die for the sins of the world. Jesus also had to be betrayed. If everyone has free will, how did God insure that one of the twelve would betray Jesus? Judas was necessary for the story. Maybe a wrong place, wrong time kind of thing.