Case for Vegetarianism

[quote]DPH wrote:

…and what the fuck is quinoa? certainly isn’t a common vegtable.[/quote]

From Wikipedia:[i]

Quinoa is a species of goosefoot grown primarily as a cereal crop. Its leaves may also be eaten as a leaf vegetable much like amaranth, but the commercial availability of quinoa greens is currently limited.

In colonial times, quinoa was scorned by the Spanish colonists as “food for Indians”, but in contemporary times the grain has come to be highly appreciated for its nutritional value. Unlike wheat or rice, quinoa contains a full complement of the amino acids that the human body can’t produce itself, making it an unusually complete foodstuff. It also contains essential omega-3 fatty acids, which provide benefit to the heart.[/i]

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Has it ever been? Honestly, at what point in history was life so healthy? There have always been diseases, plagues, social hardships and natural disasters. The strong usually survive making the entire population stronger. Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people. [/quote]

I couldn’t have said it better myself!

[quote]DPH wrote:
panterarosa wrote:
A very interesting (and amusing) argument! As usual with this topic, the arguments are far more emotional than logical.

All moral and ethical reasoning aside, the case for vegetarianism can be a good one. And yes - for strength and power athletes too.

From my own experience (fourteen of thirty years vegetarian), I know that it is possible to be strong. I deadlift just under three times my body weight. No supplements, no drugs. By no means World Class, but that has never been my focus. I can also run a half-marathon in under 90 minutes.

Some points to consider:

  1. Vegetables can be a very good source of protein too. Quinoa, for example, has an amino acid profile that is considered close to ideal (similar to that of milk).

actually most vegtables are poor sources of protein…and what the fuck is quinoa? certainly isn’t a common vegtable.

  1. Vegetables are far more easily and quickly digested, and can therefore be eaten more regularly, and in greater quantities.

no vegetables are NOT far more easily and quickly digested…I have a sister-in-law that had to have over half of her large intestines removed and she can no longer eat most vegetables…her doctors forbid it…in fact there are many vegetables that humans can’t digest at all…

  1. Vegetables contain large amounts of vitamins and minerals for nervous system development. Very important - after all - what is responsible for producing muscular contraction?

do you even know what’s responsible for muscular contraction?

  1. Vegetables are high in energy.

all vegetables are high in energy? you mean like lettuce? truth is vegetables usually have few calories…calories = energy dipshit…

Historical and scientific evidence seems to suggest that we have adapted, and readapted, to various dietary demands placed on us over the millenia. The same evidence suggests that we are built for a diet primarily of vegetable matter, but perhaps with small amounts of eggs, fish, game, etc.

only partially true…humans seem to function best on a combination of varied vegetables, fruits, and lean meats…the bulk of our calories not coming from vegetables though…

This is supported statistically by the fact that diets high in animal produce lead to higher instances of virtually all illnesses, including cancers.

what a load of crap! vegetarians are largly malnutritioned…malnutriton leads to a plethora of illnesses, including cancers…

For reasons of vitality and longevity, I would encourage everyone to consider a diet that is low in animal produce.

that’s because you don’t know shit about nutrition…

However, at the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice. On a final note, however, I can say confidently that vegetarians are at no disadvantage.

vegetarians are at a large disadvantage nutritionally…bunch of annoying anemic fuckers…every vegan I’ve every seen looked like a complete sack of shit!

look man…people need well balanced diets…they should be getting plent of fruits and vegetables, but also lean healthy sources of complete protein like chicken, fish, eggs, ect…
[/quote]

This goes down as dipshit reply of the day. You’ve gotta love someone with as pointless, uninformed replies as this finishing the whole rant up with " you don’t know shit about nutrition" HA!

“As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people.”

LOL Im dying from that one!
Prof X, you usually, to me atleast, come off as an arrogant know-it-all but that one line is making me re-think my opinion.
Fucking funny and well said.

Amir

[quote]Professor X wrote:
tiredoflogin wrote:
All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.

Has it ever been? Honestly, at what point in history was life so healthy? There have always been diseases, plagues, social hardships and natural disasters. The strong usually survive making the entire population stronger. Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

[/quote]

[quote]michael2507 wrote:
DPH wrote:

…and what the fuck is quinoa? certainly isn’t a common vegtable.

From Wikipedia:[i]

Quinoa is a species of goosefoot grown primarily as a cereal crop. Its leaves may also be eaten as a leaf vegetable much like amaranth, but the commercial availability of quinoa greens is currently limited.

In colonial times, quinoa was scorned by the Spanish colonists as “food for Indians”, but in contemporary times the grain has come to be highly appreciated for its nutritional value. Unlike wheat or rice, quinoa contains a full complement of the amino acids that the human body can’t produce itself, making it an unusually complete foodstuff. It also contains essential omega-3 fatty acids, which provide benefit to the heart.[/i][/quote]

thanks man…wikipedia is awesome!

I used wikipedia to look it up also …quinoa sounds like a great product …wonder why it hasn’t been mass marketed (maybe it tastes like sour dried bird shit or something)?

also, I wonder how nutrient dense it is? it may be difficult to eat 7 lbs. of quinoa to get more than 100 grams of quality protein in a day…I’d like to see some non-baised studies done on it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
tiredoflogin wrote:
All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.

Has it ever been? Honestly, at what point in history was life so healthy? There have always been diseases, plagues, social hardships and natural disasters. The strong usually survive making the entire population stronger. Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people. [/quote]

LMFAO!

That is the truest statement I have ever heard in my life.

  • TF

[quote]storey420 wrote:
DPH wrote:
panterarosa wrote:
A very interesting (and amusing) argument! As usual with this topic, the arguments are far more emotional than logical.

All moral and ethical reasoning aside, the case for vegetarianism can be a good one. And yes - for strength and power athletes too.

From my own experience (fourteen of thirty years vegetarian), I know that it is possible to be strong. I deadlift just under three times my body weight. No supplements, no drugs. By no means World Class, but that has never been my focus. I can also run a half-marathon in under 90 minutes.

Some points to consider:

  1. Vegetables can be a very good source of protein too. Quinoa, for example, has an amino acid profile that is considered close to ideal (similar to that of milk).

actually most vegtables are poor sources of protein…and what the fuck is quinoa? certainly isn’t a common vegtable.

  1. Vegetables are far more easily and quickly digested, and can therefore be eaten more regularly, and in greater quantities.

no vegetables are NOT far more easily and quickly digested…I have a sister-in-law that had to have over half of her large intestines removed and she can no longer eat most vegetables…her doctors forbid it…in fact there are many vegetables that humans can’t digest at all…

  1. Vegetables contain large amounts of vitamins and minerals for nervous system development. Very important - after all - what is responsible for producing muscular contraction?

do you even know what’s responsible for muscular contraction?

  1. Vegetables are high in energy.

all vegetables are high in energy? you mean like lettuce? truth is vegetables usually have few calories…calories = energy dipshit…

Historical and scientific evidence seems to suggest that we have adapted, and readapted, to various dietary demands placed on us over the millenia. The same evidence suggests that we are built for a diet primarily of vegetable matter, but perhaps with small amounts of eggs, fish, game, etc.

only partially true…humans seem to function best on a combination of varied vegetables, fruits, and lean meats…the bulk of our calories not coming from vegetables though…

This is supported statistically by the fact that diets high in animal produce lead to higher instances of virtually all illnesses, including cancers.

what a load of crap! vegetarians are largly malnutritioned…malnutriton leads to a plethora of illnesses, including cancers…

For reasons of vitality and longevity, I would encourage everyone to consider a diet that is low in animal produce.

that’s because you don’t know shit about nutrition…

However, at the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice. On a final note, however, I can say confidently that vegetarians are at no disadvantage.

vegetarians are at a large disadvantage nutritionally…bunch of annoying anemic fuckers…every vegan I’ve every seen looked like a complete sack of shit!

look man…people need well balanced diets…they should be getting plent of fruits and vegetables, but also lean healthy sources of complete protein like chicken, fish, eggs, ect…

This goes down as dipshit reply of the day. You’ve gotta love someone with as pointless, uninformed replies as this finishing the whole rant up with " you don’t know shit about nutrition" HA![/quote]

pointless, uniformed? please feel free to refute any of my points with un-biased scientific literature…

should people not be getting plenty of fruits and vegetables, but also lean healthy sources of complete protein like chicken, fish, eggs, ect…

who knows…maybe your impressive wisdom will convert me to veganism?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Kablooey wrote:
Maybe I’m older than you, but my parents, and everyone’s parents when I was a kid, thought feeding kids junk food was low class and a sign of ignorant, low-quality, selfish parenting.

Even if you didn’t give your kid a hot meal for dinner, which you usually did, you gave him a well-rounded, complete one. You didn’t just shove a couple bucks in his hand and wave him off. And you didn’t join him yourself by taking him to the local fast food dump, except occasionally. It was a treat, the way garbage food should be, not a lifestyle, the way it now often is.

People just took more responsibility for themselves and their kids. Now they show how much they love and care for their kids by throwing money at them and letting them get away with throwing tantrums and misbehaving so their “Self esteem” isn’t damaged and so they can “express themselves” right onto your last nerve.

My parents didn’t feed me junk. My mom had lunches made for us and dinner cooked all of the way until high school. My point is, it was available. We had a snack bar in high school and junior high. They sold fried chicken strips and french fries. We often left our home-made lunch uneaten in favor of that crap. My ribs still stood out in bold relief until high school. The bottom line is, your kids are no more exposed to fast food than we were. We had choices to make, even as kids. Our activity levels offset any detriment of poor choices.
[/quote]

Well, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 44.

Nobody in any school I went to had fast food actually sold inside the school. The only commercial products we had sold were sodas.

Now fast food franchises sell directly inside many schools, and there are all sorts of dispensing machines in many of them – chips, cookies, candy, soda, are all available constantly, and, well – I’d honestly rather have adults pick meals for kids than have them pick them themselves. Kids are impulsive and foolish. Even lots of teenagers would eat nothing but candy or chips all day if they could. The thing is, in many of today’s schools, they actually can.

That was an impossibility when I was a kid.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people. [/quote]

Beautifully said!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
tiredoflogin wrote:
All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.

Has it ever been? Honestly, at what point in history was life so healthy? There have always been diseases, plagues, social hardships and natural disasters. The strong usually survive making the entire population stronger. Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people. [/quote]

I dont know if you were being entirely serious but this is a false statement. While quality of life is on the rise in the Westernized world, ‘diseases plagues and social hardships’ still affect a large population in other parts of the world.In other words the disparity between developed and developing nations is on the rise.

As for your reponse to tiredoflogin. I agree. What is our fascination with perfection? We cannot control all natural variables all the time.

As for natural disasters, I think of them of nature’s way of saying ‘Shove this up yours’.

An Utopian World can never exist!

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
tiredoflogin wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
Buddha Gautama (supposedly) ate meat so long as the animal was not killed specifically for him. If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me.

Firstly I don’t suppose thats true. He did indulge in all sorts of pleasures till the age of 24 after which he renounced everything to lead a life of austerity. Thats when he attained Nirvana. The commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is being violated by more Christians than ever.

Are you fucking kidding me? There are holes in the translation of the Bible. When you look at the original language of the Bible - Hebrew and Aramic, the commandment you use is actually “Thou shalt not MURDER”. Huge difference. Killing in self defense and survival is permitted by God. Try again.
[/quote]

Also, if not pointed out already, God orders Noah and the people to BEGIN eating meat once they get off the boat. I know, Noah and the ark can be a big can of worms, but I dont wanna get on that subject. Whether you believe the ark story or not is not important for the point. The point being there’s places in the Old Testament and New Testament where God commands his people to eat meat. I don’t know how they could borrow a leg of lamb and not kill the animal…

[quote]Vyapada wrote:
Plants are living, what makes it so right to kill plants and not animals? Sentience? I’ve seen more sentience in cabbages than I see in most of the people I walk by each day.
[/quote]

Yeah, that’s exactly my argument against vegetarianism. If I can’t kill the animals for food and if I can’t kill the plants for food, what then? Am I a bad person because the desk that my computer is sitting on came from a once proud tree?

[quote]Kablooey wrote:
Well, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 44.

Nobody in any school I went to had fast food actually sold inside the school. The only commercial products we had sold were sodas.

Now fast food franchises sell directly inside many schools, and there are all sorts of dispensing machines in many of them – chips, cookies, candy, soda, are all available constantly, and, well – I’d honestly rather have adults pick meals for kids than have them pick them themselves. Kids are impulsive and foolish. Even lots of teenagers would eat nothing but candy or chips all day if they could. The thing is, in many of today’s schools, they actually can.

That was an impossibility when I was a kid.[/quote]

The point is, it was not an impossibility when I was a kid, and there still weren’t a bunch of fat kids running around. We had video games, but they weren’t as sophisticated as the entire worlds you can get lost in now on a PS2 or an Xbox. We still went outside. If food alone was to blame, then all of “generation X” would be obese. It is “generation next” that seems to be carrying all of the double chins.

Not only that, but being fat wasn’t even accepted in terms of the social scene. I mean, we didn’t go around hating fat kids, but it was fairly accepted that the kid with the 50" waist was probably not going to be prom king. I don’t think kids even care much anymore because it is so common. Every other kid I see walking in a store with their parents is fat as hell.

“Anyway, I do eat eggs. I am a wiccan.”

I just shat myself.

[quote]storey420 wrote:
This goes down as dipshit reply of the day. You’ve gotta love someone with as pointless, uninformed replies as this finishing the whole rant up with " you don’t know shit about nutrition" HA![/quote]

How else do you reply to ludicrous, inaccurate and illogical generalizations?

If you want to argue a scientific point, make an accurate statement, a valid specific conclusion, and quote the study.

For example, there is evidence that suggests populations with a high fish intake have a lower cardiac risk compared to similar populations with a vegetarian diet. The reduced cardiac risk was measured by a lower average blood pressure, lower cholesterol level, and more favorable lipid profile.

See, not so hard. Now you give it a try.

Did I then generalize to some unfounded statement such as,

[quote]For reasons of vitality and longevity,
I would encourage everyone to consider a diet that is low in animal produce[/quote]

Typical pseudoscience, gives a general statement may be true or not, proceeds to an unfounded (often impossible to study conclusion), then offers ludicrous advice. Vitality and longevity, yes two scientific endpoints that are easily studied.

Or another unfounded generalization, (from the inaccurate suppositions already ridiculed), such as

Disadvantage for what? No…let me guess…vitality and longevity.

If meat eating is so terrible, then one would assume that if someone ate almost only meat and very few vegetables, then they would be in a sorry state of health, rife with obesity, diabetes, heart problems. However, that is not the case, as is shown on the lengthy article below:

DISCOVER Vol. 25 No. 10 | October 2004 | Biology & Medicine

Patricia Cochran, an Inupiat from Northwestern Alaska, is talking about the native foods of her childhood: ?We pretty much had a subsistence way of life. Our food supply was right outside our front door. We did our hunting and foraging on the Seward Peninsula and along the Bering Sea.

?Our meat was seal and walrus, marine mammals that live in cold water and have lots of fat. We used seal oil for our cooking and as a dipping sauce for food. We had moose, caribou, and reindeer. We hunted ducks, geese, and little land birds like quail, called ptarmigan. We caught crab and lots of fish?salmon, whitefish, tomcod, pike, and char. Our fish were cooked, dried, smoked, or frozen. We ate frozen raw whitefish, sliced thin. The elders liked stinkfish, fish buried in seal bags or cans in the tundra and left to ferment. And fermented seal flipper, they liked that too.?

Cochran?s family also received shipments of whale meat from kin living farther north, near Barrow. Beluga was one she liked; raw muktuk, which is whale skin with its underlying blubber, she definitely did not. ?To me it has a chew-on-a-tire consistency,? she says, ?but to many people it?s a mainstay.? In the short subarctic summers, the family searched for roots and greens and, best of all from a child?s point of view, wild blueberries, crowberries, or salmonberries, which her aunts would mix with whipped fat to make a special treat called akutuq?in colloquial English, Eskimo ice cream.

Now Cochran directs the Alaska Native Science Commission, which promotes research on native cultures and the health and environmental issues that affect them. She sits at her keyboard in Anchorage, a bustling city offering fare from Taco Bell to French cuisine. But at home Cochran keeps a freezer filled with fish, seal, walrus, reindeer, and whale meat, sent by her family up north, and she and her husband fish and go berry picking??sometimes a challenge in Anchorage,? she adds, laughing. ?I eat fifty-fifty,? she explains, half traditional, half regular American.

No one, not even residents of the northernmost villages on Earth, eats an entirely traditional northern diet anymore. Even the groups we came to know as Eskimo?which include the Inupiat and the Yupiks of Alaska, the Canadian Inuit and Inuvialuit, Inuit Greenlanders, and the Siberian Yupiks?have probably seen more changes in their diet in a lifetime than their ancestors did over thousands of years. The closer people live to towns and the more access they have to stores and cash-paying jobs, the more likely they are to have westernized their eating. And with westernization, at least on the North American continent, comes processed foods and cheap carbohydrates?Crisco, Tang, soda, cookies, chips, pizza, fries. ?The young and urbanized,? says Harriet Kuhnlein, director of the Centre for Indigenous Peoples? Nutrition and Environment at McGill University in Montreal, ?are increasingly into fast food.? So much so that type 2 diabetes, obesity, and other diseases of Western civilization are becoming causes for concern there too.

Today, when diet books top the best-seller list and nobody seems sure of what to eat to stay healthy, it?s surprising to learn how well the Eskimo did on a high-protein, high-fat diet. Shaped by glacial temperatures, stark landscapes, and protracted winters, the traditional Eskimo diet had little in the way of plant food, no agricultural or dairy products, and was unusually low in carbohydrates. Mostly people subsisted on what they hunted and fished. Inland dwellers took advantage of caribou feeding on tundra mosses, lichens, and plants too tough for humans to stomach (though predigested vegetation in the animals? paunches became dinner as well). Coastal people exploited the sea. The main nutritional challenge was avoiding starvation in late winter if primary meat sources became too scarce or lean.

These foods hardly make up the ?balanced? diet most of us grew up with, and they look nothing like the mix of grains, fruits, vegetables, meat, eggs, and dairy we?re accustomed to seeing in conventional food pyramid diagrams. How could such a diet possibly be adequate? How did people get along on little else but fat and animal protein?

What the diet of the Far North illustrates, says Harold Draper, a biochemist and expert in Eskimo nutrition, is that there are no essential foods?only essential nutrients. And humans can get those nutrients from diverse and eye-opening sources.

One might, for instance, imagine gross vitamin deficiencies arising from a diet with scarcely any fruits and vegetables. What furnishes vitamin A, vital for eyes and bones? We derive much of ours from colorful plant foods, constructing it from pigmented plant precursors called carotenoids (as in carrots). But vitamin A, which is oil soluble, is also plentiful in the oils of cold-water fishes and sea mammals, as well as in the animals? livers, where fat is processed. These dietary staples also provide vitamin D, another oil-soluble vitamin needed for bones. Those of us living in temperate and tropical climates, on the other hand, usually make vitamin D indirectly by exposing skin to strong sun?hardly an option in the Arctic winter?and by consuming fortified cow?s milk, to which the indigenous northern groups had little access until recent decades and often don?t tolerate all that well.

As for vitamin C, the source in the Eskimo diet was long a mystery. Most animals can synthesize their own vitamin C, or ascorbic acid, in their livers, but humans are among the exceptions, along with other primates and oddballs like guinea pigs and bats. If we don?t ingest enough of it, we fall apart from scurvy, a gruesome connective-tissue disease. In the United States today we can get ample supplies from orange juice, citrus fruits, and fresh vegetables. But vitamin C oxidizes with time; getting enough from a ship?s provisions was tricky for early 18th- and 19th-century voyagers to the polar regions. Scurvy?joint pain, rotting gums, leaky blood vessels, physical and mental degeneration?plagued European and U.S. expeditions even in the 20th century. However, Arctic peoples living on fresh fish and meat were free of the disease.

Impressed, the explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson adopted an Eskimo-style diet for five years during the two Arctic expeditions he led between 1908 and 1918. ?The thing to do is to find your antiscorbutics where you are,? he wrote. ?Pick them up as you go.? In 1928, to convince skeptics, he and a young colleague spent a year on an Americanized version of the diet under medical supervision at Bellevue Hospital in New York City. The pair ate steaks, chops, organ meats like brain and liver, poultry, fish, and fat with gusto. ?If you have some fresh meat in your diet every day and don?t overcook it,? Stefansson declared triumphantly, ?there will be enough C from that source alone to prevent scurvy.?

In fact, all it takes to ward off scurvy is a daily dose of 10 milligrams, says Karen Fediuk, a consulting dietitian and former graduate student of Harriet Kuhnlein?s who did her master?s thesis on vitamin C. (That?s far less than the U.S. recommended daily allowance of 75 to 90 milligrams?75 for women, 90 for men.) Native foods easily supply those 10 milligrams of scurvy prevention, especially when organ meats?preferably raw?are on the menu. For a study published with Kuhnlein in 2002, Fediuk compared the vitamin C content of 100-gram (3.55-ounce) samples of foods eaten by Inuit women living in the Canadian Arctic: Raw caribou liver supplied almost 24 milligrams, seal brain close to 15 milligrams, and raw kelp more than 28 milligrams. Still higher levels were found in whale skin and muktuk.

As you might guess from its antiscorbutic role, vitamin C is crucial for the synthesis of connective tissue, including the matrix of skin. ?Wherever collagen?s made, you can expect vitamin C,? says Kuhnlein. Thick skinned, chewy, and collagen rich, raw muktuk can serve up an impressive 36 milligrams in a 100-gram piece, according to Fediuk?s analyses. ?Weight for weight, it?s as good as orange juice,? she says. Traditional Inuit practices like freezing meat and fish and frequently eating them raw, she notes, conserve vitamin C, which is easily cooked off and lost in food processing.

Hunter-gatherer diets like those eaten by these northern groups and other traditional diets based on nomadic herding or subsistence farming are among the older approaches to human eating. Some of these eating plans might seem strange to us?diets centered around milk, meat, and blood among the East African pastoralists, enthusiastic tuber eating by the Quechua living in the High Andes, the staple use of the mongongo nut in the southern African !Kung?but all proved resourceful adaptations to particular eco-niches. No people, though, may have been forced to push the nutritional envelope further than those living at Earth?s frozen extremes. The unusual makeup of the far-northern diet led Loren Cordain, a professor of evolutionary nutrition at Colorado State University at Fort Collins, to make an intriguing observation.

Four years ago, Cordain reviewed the macronutrient content (protein, carbohydrates, fat) in the diets of 229 hunter-gatherer groups listed in a series of journal articles collectively known as the Ethnographic Atlas. These are some of the oldest surviving human diets. In general, hunter-gatherers tend to eat more animal protein than we do in our standard Western diet, with its reliance on agriculture and carbohydrates derived from grains and starchy plants. Lowest of all in carbohydrate, and highest in combined fat and protein, are the diets of peoples living in the Far North, where they make up for fewer plant foods with extra fish. What?s equally striking, though, says Cordain, is that these meat-and-fish diets also exhibit a natural ?protein ceiling.? Protein accounts for no more than 35 to 40 percent of their total calories, which suggests to him that?s all the protein humans can comfortably handle.

This ceiling, Cordain thinks, could be imposed by the way we process protein for energy. The simplest, fastest way to make energy is to convert carbohydrates into glucose, our body?s primary fuel. But if the body is out of carbs, it can burn fat, or if necessary, break down protein. The name given to the convoluted business of making glucose from protein is gluconeogenesis. It takes place in the liver, uses a dizzying slew of enzymes, and creates nitrogen waste that has to be converted into urea and disposed of through the kidneys. On a truly traditional diet, says Draper, recalling his studies in the 1970s, Arctic people had plenty of protein but little carbohydrate, so they often relied on gluconeogenesis. Not only did they have bigger livers to handle the additional work but their urine volumes were also typically larger to get rid of the extra urea. Nonetheless, there appears to be a limit on how much protein the human liver can safely cope with: Too much overwhelms the liver?s waste-disposal system, leading to protein poisoning?nausea, diarrhea, wasting, and death.

Whatever the metabolic reason for this syndrome, says John Speth, an archaeologist at the University of Michigan?s Museum of Anthropology, plenty of evidence shows that hunters through the ages avoided protein excesses, discarding fat-depleted animals even when food was scarce. Early pioneers and trappers in North America encountered what looks like a similar affliction, sometimes referred to as rabbit starvation because rabbit meat is notoriously lean. Forced to subsist on fat-deficient meat, the men would gorge themselves, yet wither away. Protein can?t be the sole source of energy for humans, concludes Cordain. Anyone eating a meaty diet that is low in carbohydrates must have fat as well.

Stefansson had arrived at this conclusion, too, while living among the Copper Eskimo. He recalled how he and his Eskimo companions had become quite ill after weeks of eating ?caribou so skinny that there was no appreciable fat behind the eyes or in the marrow.? Later he agreed to repeat the miserable experience at Bellevue Hospital, for science?s sake, and for a while ate nothing but defatted meat. ?The symptoms brought on at Bellevue by an incomplete meat diet [lean without fat] were exactly the same as in the Arctic . . . diarrhea and a feeling of general baffling discomfort,? he wrote. He was restored with a fat fix but ?had lost considerable weight.? For the remainder of his year on meat, Stefansson tucked into his rations of chops and steaks with fat intact. ?A normal meat diet is not a high-protein diet,? he pronounced. ?We were really getting three-quarters of our calories from fat.? (Fat is more than twice as calorie dense as protein or carbohydrate, but even so, that?s a lot of lard. A typical U.S diet provides about 35 percent of its calories from fat.)

Stefansson dropped 10 pounds on his meat-and-fat regimen and remarked on its ?slenderizing? aspect, so perhaps it?s no surprise he?s been co-opted as a posthumous poster boy for Atkins-type diets. No discussion about diet these days can avoid Atkins. Even some researchers interviewed for this article couldn?t resist referring to the Inuit way of eating as the ?original Atkins.? ?Superficially, at a macronutrient level, the two diets certainly look similar,? allows Samuel Klein, a nutrition researcher at Washington University in St. Louis, who?s attempting to study how Atkins stacks up against conventional weight-loss diets. Like the Inuit diet, Atkins is low in carbohydrates and very high in fat. But numerous researchers, including Klein, point out that there are profound differences between the two diets, beginning with the type of meat and fat eaten.

Fats have been demonized in the United States, says Eric Dewailly, a professor of preventive medicine at Laval University in Quebec. But all fats are not created equal. This lies at the heart of a paradox?the Inuit paradox, if you will. In the Nunavik villages in northern Quebec, adults over 40 get almost half their calories from native foods, says Dewailly, and they don?t die of heart attacks at nearly the same rates as other Canadians or Americans. Their cardiac death rate is about half of ours, he says. As someone who looks for links between diet and cardiovascular health, he?s intrigued by that reduced risk. Because the traditional Inuit diet is ?so restricted,? he says, it?s easier to study than the famously heart-healthy Mediterranean diet, with its cornucopia of vegetables, fruits, grains, herbs, spices, olive oil, and red wine.

A key difference in the typical Nunavik Inuit?s diet is that more than 50 percent of the calories in Inuit native foods come from fats. Much more important, the fats come from wild animals.

Wild-animal fats are different from both farm-animal fats and processed fats, says Dewailly. Farm animals, cooped up and stuffed with agricultural grains (carbohydrates) typically have lots of solid, highly saturated fat. Much of our processed food is also riddled with solid fats, or so-called trans fats, such as the reengineered vegetable oils and shortenings cached in baked goods and snacks. ?A lot of the packaged food on supermarket shelves contains them. So do commercial french fries,? Dewailly adds.

Trans fats are polyunsaturated vegetable oils tricked up to make them more solid at room temperature. Manufacturers do this by hydrogenating the oils?adding extra hydrogen atoms to their molecular structures?which ?twists? their shapes. Dewailly makes twisting sound less like a chemical transformation than a perversion, an act of public-health sabotage: ?These man-made fats are dangerous, even worse for the heart than saturated fats.? They not only lower high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (HDL, the ?good? cholesterol) but they also raise low-density lipoprotein cholesterol (LDL, the ?bad? cholesterol) and triglycerides, he says. In the process, trans fats set the stage for heart attacks because they lead to the increase of fatty buildup in artery walls.

Wild animals that range freely and eat what nature intended, says Dewailly, have fat that is far more healthful. Less of their fat is saturated, and more of it is in the monounsaturated form (like olive oil). What?s more, cold-water fishes and sea mammals are particularly rich in polyunsaturated fats called n-3 fatty acids or omega-3 fatty acids. These fats appear to benefit the heart and vascular system. But the polyunsaturated fats in most Americans? diets are the omega-6 fatty acids supplied by vegetable oils. By contrast, whale blubber consists of 70 percent monounsaturated fat and close to 30 percent omega-3s, says Dewailly.

Omega-3s evidently help raise HDL cholesterol, lower triglycerides, and are known for anticlotting effects. (Ethnographers have remarked on an Eskimo propensity for nosebleeds.) These fatty acids are believed to protect the heart from life-threatening arrhythmias that can lead to sudden cardiac death. And like a ?natural aspirin,? adds Dewailly, omega-3 polyunsaturated fats help put a damper on runaway inflammatory processes, which play a part in atherosclerosis, arthritis, diabetes, and other so-called diseases of civilization.

You can be sure, however, that Atkins devotees aren?t routinely eating seal and whale blubber. Besides the acquired taste problem, their commerce is extremely restricted in the United States by the Marine Mammal Protection Act, says Bruce Holub, a nutritional biochemist in the department of human biology and nutritional sciences at the University of Guelph in Ontario.

?In heartland America it?s probable they?re not eating in an Eskimo-like way,? says Gary Foster, clinical director of the Weight and Eating Disorders Program at the Pennsylvania School of Medicine. Foster, who describes himself as open-minded about Atkins, says he?d nonetheless worry if people saw the diet as a green light to eat all the butter and bacon?saturated fats?they want. Just before rumors surfaced that Robert Atkins had heart and weight problems when he died, Atkins officials themselves were stressing saturated fat should account for no more than 20 percent of dieters? calories. This seems to be a clear retreat from the diet?s original don?t-count-the-calories approach to bacon and butter and its happy exhortations to ?plow into those prime ribs.? Furthermore, 20 percent of calories from saturated fats is double what most nutritionists advise. Before plowing into those prime ribs, readers of a recent edition of the Dr. Atkins? New Diet Revolution are urged to take omega-3 pills to help protect their hearts. ?If you watch carefully,? says Holub wryly, ?you?ll see many popular U.S. diets have quietly added omega-3 pills, in the form of fish oil or flaxseed capsules, as supplements.?

Needless to say, the subsistence diets of the Far North are not ?dieting.? Dieting is the price we pay for too little exercise and too much mass-produced food. Northern diets were a way of life in places too cold for agriculture, where food, whether hunted, fished, or foraged, could not be taken for granted. They were about keeping weight on.

This is not to say that people in the Far North were fat: Subsistence living requires exercise?hard physical work. Indeed, among the good reasons for native people to maintain their old way of eating, as far as it?s possible today, is that it provides a hedge against obesity, type 2 diabetes, and heart disease. Unfortunately, no place on Earth is immune to the spreading taint of growth and development. The very well-being of the northern food chain is coming under threat from global warming, land development, and industrial pollutants in the marine environment. ?I?m a pragmatist,? says Cochran, whose organization is involved in pollution monitoring and disseminating food-safety information to native villages. ?Global warming we don?t have control over. But we can, for example, do cleanups of military sites in Alaska or of communication cables leaching lead into fish-spawning areas. We can help communities make informed food choices. A young woman of childbearing age may choose not to eat certain organ meats that concentrate contaminants. As individuals, we do have options. And eating our salmon and our seal is still a heck of a better option than pulling something processed that?s full of additives off a store shelf.?

Not often in our industrial society do we hear someone speak so familiarly about ?our? food animals. We don?t talk of ?our pig? and ?our beef.? We?ve lost that creature feeling, that sense of kinship with food sources. ?You?re taught to think in boxes,? says Cochran. ?In our culture the connectivity between humans, animals, plants, the land they live on, and the air they share is ingrained in us from birth.

?You truthfully can?t separate the way we get our food from the way we live,? she says. ?How we get our food is intrinsic to our culture. It?s how we pass on our values and knowledge to the young. When you go out with your aunts and uncles to hunt or to gather, you learn to smell the air, watch the wind, understand the way the ice moves, know the land. You get to know where to pick which plant and what animal to take.

?It?s part, too, of your development as a person. You share food with your community. You show respect to your elders by offering them the first catch. You give thanks to the animal that gave up its life for your sustenance. So you get all the physical activity of harvesting your own food, all the social activity of sharing and preparing it, and all the spiritual aspects as well,? says Cochran. ?You certainly don?t get all that, do you, when you buy prepackaged food from a store.

?That?s why some of us here in Anchorage are working to protect what?s ours, so that others can continue to live back home in the villages,? she adds. ?Because if we don?t take care of our food, it won?t be there for us in the future. And if we lose our foods, we lose who we are.? The word Inupiat means ?the real people.? ?That?s who we are,? says Cochran.

They seem to be doing alright, don’t they? Also, a good case for hunting your own food.

Jesus, I can’t read that. Could someone sum it up in a few short sentences? :wink:

Dan

[quote]
Kablooey wrote:
Well, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 44.

Nobody in any school I went to had fast food actually sold inside the school. The only commercial products we had sold were sodas.

Now fast food franchises sell directly inside many schools, and there are all sorts of dispensing machines in many of them – chips, cookies, candy, soda, are all available constantly, and, well – I’d honestly rather have adults pick meals for kids than have them pick them themselves. Kids are impulsive and foolish. Even lots of teenagers would eat nothing but candy or chips all day if they could. The thing is, in many of today’s schools, they actually can.

That was an impossibility when I was a kid.

Professor X wrote:
The point is, it was not an impossibility when I was a kid, and there still weren’t a bunch of fat kids running around. We had video games, but they weren’t as sophisticated as the entire worlds you can get lost in now on a PS2 or an Xbox. We still went outside. If food alone was to blame, then all of “generation X” would be obese. It is “generation next” that seems to be carrying all of the double chins.

Not only that, but being fat wasn’t even accepted in terms of the social scene. I mean, we didn’t go around hating fat kids, but it was fairly accepted that the kid with the 50" waist was probably not going to be prom king. I don’t think kids even care much anymore because it is so common. Every other kid I see walking in a store with their parents is fat as hell. [/quote]

I have to agree with Prof X.

I don’t know why everyone is so fixated on fast food franchises selling in school cafeterias. While it certainly isn’t optimal, I’m going to go out and a limb and guess that it’s actually an improvement over the slop that my school cafeterias served when I was a lad (I’m 31). Considering the salisbury steak, chicken-friend steak, greasy pizza that a mall wouldn’t serve and canned veggies that had to have been cooked in some ungodly mixture of Crisco and margarine, I’m surprised any of us survived.

Point being that I don’t buy the idea that it’s merely a matter of bad nutrition. I was far more active, even given my addiction to my Atari (which I could only use on our living room TV when that TV was available) – we rode bikes, played football or variations, roamed the neighborhood terrorizing imaginary foes, built forts in the park, etc. We were active, and our moms, who coincidentally were generally at home during the day, didn’t let us sit around and watch TV and eat Doritos until our eyes bugged out and our whole faces were nuclear orange.

Now they’re cancelling recess at a bunch of schools, because principals (and superintendents) have decided kids might skin their knees and they might get sued. I blame both the bureaucrats and the trial lawyers (and the ridiculous parents who’ve employed them to sue the schools who don’t cater to the every whim of their spoiled kids) on that. And the parents who let their kids become huge tubs of goo because whatever they want to do is more important to them than raising their kids properly.

[quote]Ahdanielsan wrote:
Jesus, I can’t read that. Could someone sum it up in a few short sentences? :wink:

Dan[/quote]

Bottomline: a diet comprised 95% on protein and fat derived from “naturally-raised” animals (ie. not raised in farms but in the wilderness) is more healthy than most of today’s modern diets.

For crissake, we let the vegans munch on freaking leaves, why the hell can’t they shut up when they see us digging into a steak?

[quote]Ahdanielsan wrote:
Jesus, I can’t read that. Could someone sum it up in a few short sentences? :wink:

Dan[/quote]

Hehe, sorry about that, it is pretty long. Basically eskimos eat almost all meat and fat, yet they have lower rates of heart disease, obesity and diabetes than most people. There about as close to a pure carnivore as humans get, and they’re healthy!