Case for Vegetarianism

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… BTW Jesus was a vegetarian if not completely vegan. You are obviously not a self respecting Christian because you lack any of Jesus’ traits. May you rot in hell with a million vegans at your side.

I’ve never looked into Jesus’ dietary habits, but apparently he had nothing against feeding people fish, and nothing against providing wine for celebrations.[/quote]

The dude seriously knew how to party. No wonder he was so popular. A guy who can make wine out of thin is going to get invited to EVERY party.

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[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Ahdanielsan wrote:
…
Do you expect parents to shadow their kids, and make sure they’re not buying sugar-packed shit from sponsored vending machines at school?

…

This bothers me a lot more than McDonalds. Schools are taking bribes from soda and candy companies and are pushing this shit.

This is a practice that should be stopped.[/quote]

Yeah it should be. It is in some few places, but basically voters always want more services and to pay less taxes, at the very same time. So schools wind up chasing money however they can, and most people would rather have McDonald’s brand-marking their kids and feeding them garbage for years than replace the McDonalds money with their own tax dollars.

It would take quite a change in human nature to get people to think more about the health of the nation’s children than about their own pocketbooks.

Heck, if we’re voting against measures to vaccinate kids against deadly diseases, what are the chances we’re going to give a damn if they eat fast food every day?

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Ahdanielsan wrote:
…
Do you expect parents to shadow their kids, and make sure they’re not buying sugar-packed shit from sponsored vending machines at school?

…

This bothers me a lot more than McDonalds. Schools are taking bribes from soda and candy companies and are pushing this shit.

This is a practice that should be stopped.

But we all ate crap! I remember buying those Zingers during lunch in junior high…and we may have had ONE fat kid in all of my classes. But then, we played during lunch. Kids literally wolfed food down so they could spend more time on the basketball court. We ran home or rode bikes. We played outside until dark. THAT alone was the difference. That is why we could eat like crap and not get fat. Why people today want to blame food alone is beyond me.

[/quote]

Maybe I’m older than you, but my parents, and everyone’s parents when I was a kid, thought feeding kids junk food was low class and a sign of ignorant, low-quality, selfish parenting.

Even if you didn’t give your kid a hot meal for dinner, which you usually did, you gave him a well-rounded, complete one. You didn’t just shove a couple bucks in his hand and wave him off. And you didn’t join him yourself by taking him to the local fast food dump, except occasionally. It was a treat, the way garbage food should be, not a lifestyle, the way it now often is.

People just took more responsibility for themselves and their kids. Now they show how much they love and care for their kids by throwing money at them and letting them get away with throwing tantrums and misbehaving so their “Self esteem” isn’t damaged and so they can “express themselves” right onto your last nerve.

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[quote]Kablooey wrote:
Maybe I’m older than you, but my parents, and everyone’s parents when I was a kid, thought feeding kids junk food was low class and a sign of ignorant, low-quality, selfish parenting.

Even if you didn’t give your kid a hot meal for dinner, which you usually did, you gave him a well-rounded, complete one. You didn’t just shove a couple bucks in his hand and wave him off. And you didn’t join him yourself by taking him to the local fast food dump, except occasionally. It was a treat, the way garbage food should be, not a lifestyle, the way it now often is.

People just took more responsibility for themselves and their kids. Now they show how much they love and care for their kids by throwing money at them and letting them get away with throwing tantrums and misbehaving so their “Self esteem” isn’t damaged and so they can “express themselves” right onto your last nerve.
[/quote]

My parents didn’t feed me junk. My mom had lunches made for us and dinner cooked all of the way until high school. My point is, it was available. We had a snack bar in high school and junior high. They sold fried chicken strips and french fries. We often left our home-made lunch uneaten in favor of that crap. My ribs still stood out in bold relief until high school. The bottom line is, your kids are no more exposed to fast food than we were. We had choices to make, even as kids. Our activity levels offset any detriment of poor choices.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
What neighborhood did you grow up in? The hamburgler? Ronald? That purple bell shaped monster muthafucker? Those pom pom shaped bastards? They were ALL heavily promoted and always have been. Star Wars sequals were originally released with Return of the Jedi Cups at Micky D’s. Mc Donald’s was always geared towards kids and only recently switched gears and tried to attract more adults. That was what always set it apart from any other fast food place. All Burger King had was…the Burger King.

You just choose to selectively remember what fits your agenda…let me guess…republican?

[/quote]

I’m guessing that your ‘republican’ jab is an attempt at sarcasm. You’re right though, politcally I am about as far on the left as you could be.

And where I grew up: in the country, surrounded by sheep and cows that I’d happily whack on the BBQ.

I get the feeling that we’re probably getting at the same thing, and I’m the first one to have a pop at ‘blame culture’, but you have to admit that maybe the corporations are being an itsy, witsy bit naughty… no?

We got so angry about what was going into our food that I’ve just built a load of rasied beds in our yard to grow veg, and we have a friend who provides us with meat (we have to pay for the slaughter and food, and they give the animals…errrr…lodgings).

However, not everyone’s in the position to do this, and I still say that advertising McD’s in between the Power Rangers and Animaniacs is just wrong.

Dan

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[quote]Ahdanielsan wrote:
We got so angry about what was going into our food that I’ve just built a load of rasied beds in our yard to grow veg, and we have a friend who provides us with meat (we have to pay for the slaughter and food, and they give the animals…errrr…lodgings).

However, not everyone’s in the position to do this, and I still say that advertising McD’s in between the Power Rangers and Animaniacs is just wrong.

Dan

[/quote]

I can’t blame Micky D’s when most kids today are all waiting on Madden to come out so they can spend an extra 3-4 hours a day in front of the tv moving nothing but their fingers.

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[quote]
panterarosa wrote:
A very interesting (and amusing) argument! As usual with this topic, the arguments are far more emotional than logical.

All moral and ethical reasoning aside, the case for vegetarianism can be a good one. And yes - for strength and power athletes too.

From my own experience (fourteen of thirty years vegetarian), I know that it is possible to be strong. I deadlift just under three times my body weight. No supplements, no drugs. By no means World Class, but that has never been my focus. I can also run a half-marathon in under 90 minutes.

Some points to consider:

  1. Vegetables can be a very good source of protein too. Quinoa, for example, has an amino acid profile that is considered close to ideal (similar to that of milk).

  2. Vegetables are far more easily and quickly digested, and can therefore be eaten more regularly, and in greater quantities.

  3. Vegetables contain large amounts of vitamins and minerals for nervous system development. Very important - after all - what is responsible for producing muscular contraction?

  4. Vegetables are high in energy.

Historical and scientific evidence seems to suggest that we have adapted, and readapted, to various dietary demands placed on us over the millenia. The same evidence suggests that we are built for a diet primarily of vegetable matter, but perhaps with small amounts of eggs, fish, game, etc. This is supported statistically by the fact that diets high in animal produce lead to higher instances of virtually all illnesses, including cancers.

For reasons of vitality and longevity, I would encourage everyone to consider a diet that is low in animal produce. However, at the end of the day it is a matter of personal choice. On a final note, however, I can say confidently that vegetarians are at no disadvantage.

Kablooey wrote:
Easily the best post in this thread.

It’s ridiculous for people to approach this issue as if there’s a war going on and we all have to square off into opposing camps and vilify or ridicule each other. That’s pointless and assinine, and has a tendency not to convince anyone anyway.

That said, there’s more than enough evidence, both scientific and historical, that vegetarianism or near-vegetarianism can be very healthy lifestyles and do have some undeniable benefits.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is arguing that vegetables are bad for you. Obviously most people would do well to increase their vegetable intakes.

And as I believe someone mentioned above, a lot of the studies on vegetarianism’s benefits are done with very interesting baseline controls… If you’re going to show me a study, please find one in which the performance of trained individuals is studied with vegetarian v. vegan v. Berardi-style eating. I definitely have a pre-conception as to what this would show, and my preconception doesn’t involve bigger, healthier vegans.

I think most of us are unconvinced as to the benefits of cutting out meat as a protein source – or even of cutting it down significantly. We’re quite well convinced that we should eat our veggies…

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

I can’t blame Micky D’s when most kids today are all waiting on Madden to come out so they can spend an extra 3-4 hours a day in front of the tv moving nothing but their fingers.
[/quote]

No kidding. I rarely see kids out playing. Maybe parents are afraid their kids will be abducted.

They don’t play outside at home, the basketball courts and ball fields are empty.

We used to play pick up sports all the time. Now the only time I see kids playing is when they are in a league.

It is no wonder kids are fatter today.

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[quote]Kablooey wrote:
Easily the best post in this thread.

It’s ridiculous for people to approach this issue as if there’s a war going on and we all have to square off into opposing camps and vilify or ridicule each other. That’s pointless and assinine, and has a tendency not to convince anyone anyway.

That said, there’s more than enough evidence, both scientific and historical, that vegetarianism or near-vegetarianism can be very healthy lifestyles and do have some undeniable benefits.[/quote]

My sister’s a vegetarian, I am not. We rarely discuss the matter, its of little interest how the other eats. You can eat a healthy diet either way, or you can point to extremes of either as unhealthy.

When a vegetarian (or anyone else)spouts psuedoscience crap, and illogical moral arguements to push the superiority of their choice, that is what demands ridicule. Besides its fun.

For example:

[quote]
4. Vegetables are high in energy.[/quote]

Umm…okay. Defined by what, Tai chai energy. In kcal a BK whopper rules.

or, more to the point, the first post, which you must have missed.

Um…Ok. I am killing animals. Well not directly, and indirectly so are you. I’m eating animals. Not that I would have a problem killing them for food, just don’t have the time or desire, when i can just go to the store.

Yes, hence all the cave drawings picturing hunting animals and the tools and bone defects suggesting they hunted.

Damn medical school I went to omitted that toxin thing. Primary cancer of the liver is such a common disease too. I am firing off a letter to my alma matta today. Damn them.

Umm… Ok. You mean flesh or red meat. Fish is flesh. Fish has been shown in study after study to decrease cardiac risk.

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Hmmm…

I think my earlier post here was mistaken. I did not intend to say that eating veggies is harmful instead veggies do provide a variety of nutrients that are essential for day to day functioning. However, to eliminate meat from the menu as a protein source seems extreme.

It is true that certain Australopiths were vegetarians by nature with teeth that were geared towards grinding and mashing but not towards tearing meat as they lacked canines. It is also clear that they driven to extinction overover a period of time by other hominids. They did not progess evolutionary to give rise to Homo sapiens sapiens. I could only speculate why they were non meat eaters, maybe the lack of hunting tools, maybe excessively dispersed food sources, etc.

I remember watching a Discovery Channel Documentary that suggested that incorporation of meat into the diet of early hominids led to a faster development of the human brain. I cannot seem to dig up any articles that will confirm this claim but will post it here if I do find them.

In today’s world much of the vegetarian vs meat diet debate is a result of religion and belief. For us Hindus its not correct to eat beef because its sacred but its ok to bleed a goat for sacrifice. I call bullshit. However, for most Hindus would rather die than eat beef because they consider it sacred. Why? Because some scholar in the past decided to make a diety out of it?

The other reason I can think of is choice. Some people just do not like the taste of meat. They can refrain from eating meat and gasp at us when we do so but should not try and impose their views on us.

The third and last reason I can think of is that of cost. While I cannot foresee cost being a big issue in the Western Hemisphere, it is a big concern in developing nations. In India Id eat meat just once a week because it was expensive as hell.

So, in conclusion, those of us who eat meat and enjoy em let us continue to do so. Those who dont like meat can stay away and we have no problem with that.

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[quote]jsbrook wrote:
flabtoslab wrote:

People just need to think about it like this; If cows knew how tasty they were, they’d eat each other.

hahaha![/quote]

hahaha mad cow disease anyone? :stuck_out_tongue:

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[quote]panterarosa wrote:
A very interesting (and amusing) argument! As usual with this topic, the arguments are far more emotional than logical.

All moral and ethical reasoning aside, the case for vegetarianism can be a good one. And yes - for strength and power athletes too.

From my own experience (fourteen of thirty years vegetarian), I know that it is possible to be strong. I deadlift just under three times my body weight. No supplements, no drugs. By no means World Class, but that has never been my focus. I can also run a half-marathon in under 90 minutes.

Some points to consider:

  1. Vegetables can be a very good source of protein too. Quinoa, for example, has an amino acid profile that is considered close to ideal (similar to that of milk).
    [/quote]

actually most vegtables are poor sources of protein…and what the fuck is quinoa? certainly isn’t a common vegtable.

no vegetables are NOT far more easily and quickly digested…I have a sister-in-law that had to have over half of her large intestines removed and she can no longer eat most vegetables…her doctors forbid it…in fact there are many vegetables that humans can’t digest at all…

do you even know what’s responsible for muscular contraction?

all vegetables are high in energy? you mean like lettuce? truth is vegetables usually have few calories…calories = energy dipshit…

only partially true…humans seem to function best on a combination of varied vegetables, fruits, and lean meats…the bulk of our calories not coming from vegetables though…

what a load of crap! vegetarians are largly malnutritioned…malnutriton leads to a plethora of illnesses, including cancers…

that’s because you don’t know shit about nutrition…

vegetarians are at a large disadvantage nutritionally…bunch of annoying anemic fuckers…every vegan I’ve every seen looked like a complete sack of shit!

look man…people need well balanced diets…they should be getting plent of fruits and vegetables, but also lean healthy sources of complete protein like chicken, fish, eggs, ect…

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lol After reading today’s article offering, humans are supposed to be capable of adapting to their resources. But Kuan Yin? I believe it is time the barbarians bitch slap the passive kuan yin back to their caves. You know how history goes- disease kicked ass, barbarians kicked ass, then the guys with guns kicked ass, sooner or later disease will again kick global ass, then barbians will kick global ass, then the guys with better guns will kick global ass.

Kuan Yin? the passive path, don’t hurt/eat the animals because they will beat your compassionate ass.

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[quote]tiredoflogin wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
Buddha Gautama (supposedly) ate meat so long as the animal was not killed specifically for him. If it’s good enough for him, it’s good enough for me.

Firstly I don’t suppose thats true. He did indulge in all sorts of pleasures till the age of 24 after which he renounced everything to lead a life of austerity. Thats when he attained Nirvana. The commandment “Thou shalt not kill” is being violated by more Christians than ever. [/quote]

this thread is teh ghey, but i must post…

isn’t it convenient to leave out the rest of the story? Buddha did NOT reach Nirvana during austerity. he reached Nirvana after he said, “fuck all this austerity, desirelessness, enlightenment shit! im gonna go eat.” upon returning to a life full of desire and pleasure and pain he attained enlightenment.

if you understood eastern philosophy as it relates to reality you’d understand that enlightenment has nothing to do with self-denial.

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Ok, some of you are missing the point of my post.

Im not suggesting that eating McDonalds gets you fat necessarily, Im saying that crap is unhealthy and poor USDA inspectioning is keeping it that way. Its not their fault, a particular administration wont give them more power to regultate the meatpacking more. Im usually against regulation and even though im a Dem I somewhat stand against it. Some meat/poultry/dairy companies take it upon themselves to be organic in their feed and beef, and I support those companies. Fast food restaurants dont. Thats at least one aspect.

Please, just read the book, it explains everything.

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All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.

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[quote]tiredoflogin wrote:
All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.[/quote]

Has it ever been? Honestly, at what point in history was life so healthy? There have always been diseases, plagues, social hardships and natural disasters. The strong usually survive making the entire population stronger. Thanks to medical science and overregulation by government, now all of the weak dumb people who usually would have killed themselves off are now breeding and living until the age of 103.

As you can see, the problem is longer living dumb people.

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[quote]tiredoflogin wrote:
All I am trying to point out guys is that our current way of living might not be the healthiest one.[/quote]

Wow, thanks ‘flogin’ you changed my outlook on everything… Well, you and the surgical expert Dr. Miller from Formosa in the piece of garbage article you posted…

Tube Steak Boogie, dude…

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And all I’m trying to point out is that the self righteous “being a vegan is better and will give you good karma” tone is assanine and irritating. Especialy when you throw in some pseudo-scientific bullshit about growth hormone and antibiotics. So don’t try to minimize what your point was when you already made it abundantly clear. I just love “enlightened” assholes that haven’t yet learned that spiritual leaders lead by example, and that their mode is attraction rather than derision or the propegation of propaganda.

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[quote]tiredoflogin wrote:
A lifetime commitment to a vegan or lacto-vegetarian diet is a prerequisite for initiation into the Quan Vin Method. Foods from plant sources and dairy products are permitted on this diet, but all other foods from animal sources including eggs should not be eaten. There are many reasons for this, but the most important comes from the First Precept, which tells us to refrain from taking the life of sentient beings, or “Thou shalt not kill.”
[/quote]
Last I checked plants were alive, so maybe they should start eating dirt & rocks