Damn. It’s taken nearly 350 posts, but OD is finally starting to make sense.[/quote]
Yes, but I still disagree with his original premise. I think we went into Iraq under motivations that were not just to “free Iraq”. Now that we are there, we have to finish what we started. That doesn’t mean I have to support the ideas that come from this current administration to support that effort. After we are all dead and gone, hopefully this country will still be here. Our grandkids will care very little about “Liberal/Conservative wars” in relation to 2005.
Damn. It’s taken nearly 350 posts, but OD is finally starting to make sense.
Yes, but I still disagree with his original premise. I think we went into Iraq under motivations that were not just to “free Iraq”. Now that we are there, we have to finish what we started. That doesn’t mean I have to support the ideas that come from this current administration to support that effort. After we are all dead and gone, hopefully this country will still be here. Our grandkids will care very little about “Liberal/Conservative wars” in relation to 2005.[/quote]
In Australia, we have a really, really corny song that that usually gets sung at football matches by washed up singers called “I am, you are, we are Australian”. It’s not called “I am a liberal and you are a filthy labour voter”. You can support your country and the troops, but you do not have to support the current administration to do so.
I just reread OD’s post that I quoted, and it contains this:
“My loyalty lies with this nation. If I were from another country, my loyalty would lie with them. It?s that simple.”
This seems to be at odds with his earlier post about if you don’t support the government, then you are not supporting America.
In isolation, what I quoted makes sense (nearly), but it seems to contradict his earlier post. I would ask for a clarification from OD, but I’m all warm and fuzzy from him finally making sense that I don’t want him to fuck it up.
[quote]Massif wrote:
In isolation, what I quoted makes sense (nearly), but it seems to contradict his earlier post. I would ask for a clarification from OD, but I’m all warm and fuzzy from him finally making sense that I don’t want him to fuck it up.
[/quote]
Massif, you are a poet.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Massif wrote:
In isolation, what I quoted makes sense (nearly), but it seems to contradict his earlier post. I would ask for a clarification from OD, but I’m all warm and fuzzy from him finally making sense that I don’t want him to fuck it up.
Massif, you are a poet.
[/quote]
I think it was the great Billy Connolly that said "I have a vocabulary of about 127 words, and I still prefer the word “fuck”.
[quote]Massif wrote:
I think it was the great Billy Connolly that said "I have a vocabulary of about 127 words, and I still prefer the word “fuck”.[/quote]
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
This is a very easy thing to say when you come home with all your limbs and health. Mind you, I’m not questioning these airmen’s bravery. I am questioning the good things we are doing over there. They are “good things” in light of the fact we should not have been over there to begin with.[/quote]
You are right, it is easier to say good stuff when you come back all in one piece. I have also seen the badly injured Marines on TV that say they wish they were still over there fighting with their unit.
I disagree that we should never have been there, but I will say we probably didn’t get the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
I am an AF Senior NCO. I did not write the orders, but I handed them out. I basically chose who went. I helped these young people get ready to go. I took them to the airport. I corresponded with them and their families and helped them take care of their lives from afar while they were gone. I picked them up from the airport. They were not my children, but in many ways, it felt like it when I put them on the plane. I have known dozens or more people to have gone to war. It was very different when they were airmen that worked for me vs the guy across the street.
My comment had nothing to do with questioning orders and valid responses. My statement was that the airmen that I deal with came home feeling that they were doing some thing good and they would go again. It was simply my opinion and anecdotal evidence to support it.
I’m not questioning these airmen’s bravery. I am questioning the good things we are doing over there. They are “good things” in light of the fact we should not have been over there to begin with.
For someone who takes orders, doesn’t talk back to their supperiors, and served his/her country, you sure ask a lot of questions.
[/quote]
This is a bad thing?
As for your airman what have they to do with me? This is a very ignorant comparrison!! You see questions and you automatically assume the negative. It’s because of people like you that we don’t have free thought in this country. You put fear into people who don’t beleive as you.
And what have I to feel bitter about. I grew up in a military household and later served in the USMC so for you to sit and make assumptions about my motives is horse-shit. You stated above that I ask a lot of questions. I’ve explained this before–let me once agian. By asking questions it lets the reader know–I don’t know the answer. I ask questions to start dialogs. Rather than state my opinions as fact I ask questions–the dialog goes two ways. There are no black and whites but many shades of grey.
And yes now that I no longer–for many years now as a matter of fact–am a uniformed member of the USMC I can ask questions with out FEAR of reprisal. You should be glad that there are a few intelligent indivduals BRAVE enough to tackle the questions that you yourself haven’t the capacity to understand. Do yourself and everyone else a favor if you can’t be constructive–leave off.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It’s because of people like you that we don’t have free thought in this country. You put fear into people who don’t beleive as you.
[/quote]
This is one of the most outrageous statements I’ve heard on here in some time. You have total freedom of thought in this country. In fact, it don’t get any more free than the U.S.
If your convictions/beliefs/thoughts are so fragile that they can be intimidated, you should take a hard look at what it is you believe in because it is shaky at best.
You should be glad that there are a few intelligent indivduals BRAVE enough to tackle the questions that you yourself haven’t the capacity to understand. Do yourself and everyone else a favor if you can’t be constructive–leave off. [/quote]
You really think you, or anyone else, is “BRAVE” for raising questions about Iraq, or even propagating BS conspiracy stories? At least 40% of the country and the majority of the mainstream media are in line with your thinking, so how are you some kind of brave maverick for taking that position? In a lot of sectors (academia, the media, entertainment) it takes much more bravery to be pro-war than the other way around.
[quote]LA wrote:
You are right, it is easier to say good stuff when you come back all in one piece. I have also seen the badly injured Marines on TV that say they wish they were still over there fighting with their unit.
[/quote]
Marines are war crazy–it’s in our blood. We fight because it’s all we’re taught. A Marine first job is rifleman all else is secondary. Why do you think we have the distinct honor of gaurding the president? “Kill, Kill, Kill” (this was a phrase they made us yell before we could eat). So you see my reluctance to believe these marines on “TV” were speaking of their own free will. They were speaking lest they be ridiculed by people like yourself–senior members of the armed forces. Of course if my unit were still in combat I would feel shame in sleeping in a warm bed–marines are a “band of brothers”–we are protective of our own.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
This is one of the most outrageous statements I’ve heard on here in some time. You have total freedom of thought in this country. In fact, it don’t get any more free than the U.S.
[/quote]
Ask a soldier, marine, seaman, and airman if they have free thought when it comes to their own person while in uniform–okay maybe not an airman–they call their sargeants by their first names. Just kidding–I meant no disrspect to any armed service member.
Now ask youself when was the first time you heard the term free thought. When was the first time you ever practiced it? No, in this country one is told they have free though–it’s a guaranteed right–many people still fear the use of it because of reprisal they may encounter–especially military members. That was my full point.
[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
You really think you, or anyone else, is “BRAVE” for raising questions about Iraq, or even propagating BS conspiracy stories? At least 40% of the country and the majority of the mainstream media are in line with your thinking, so how are you some kind of brave maverick for taking that position? In a lot of sectors (academia, the media, entertainment) it takes much more bravery to be pro-war than the other way around.[/quote]
Conspiracy?
Bravery is not the romantic, spoon fed crap that you watch in the movies. Anytime someone asks a question that pisses someone off–it’s brave. In my opinion. Bravery is doing something withour regaurd to reprisal, withour regaurd of consequence. When someones asks a question that is not in line with popular thought they force people to think outside themselves.
I never said I was brave. I asked our friend not to riducule people who are brave enough to ask questions.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ask a soldier, marine, seaman, and airman if they have free thought when it comes to their own person while in uniform–okay maybe not an airman–they call their sargeants by their first names. Just kidding–I meant no disrspect to any armed service member.
Now ask youself when was the first time you heard the term free thought. When was the first time you ever practiced it? No, in this country one is told they have free though–it’s a guaranteed right–many people still fear the use of it because of reprisal they may encounter–especially military members. That was my full point.[/quote]
You didn’t qualify your statement as being about servicemen. But in that vein - I don’t want a bunch of free thinkers defending my country. I want folks that will carry out their orders, complete the mission, and come back for more.
The military has never been a bastion of free thought. Too many lives are at stake for you to be able to question authority. The chain of command is there for a reason.
You didn’t qualify your statement as being about servicemen. But in that vein - I don’t want a bunch of free thinkers defending my country. I want folks that will carry out their orders, complete the mission, and come back for more.
The military has never been a bastion of free thought. Too many lives are at stake for you to be able to question authority. The chain of command is there for a reason.
[/quote]
I was originally told that for being a former military person I asked a lot of qeustions. I replied that now that I am no longer in uniform it is completely in my right.
You are correct–one cannot questions orders–unless they are illegally issued or illiegal in of themselves.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
LA wrote:
You are right, it is easier to say good stuff when you come back all in one piece. I have also seen the badly injured Marines on TV that say they wish they were still over there fighting with their unit.
Marines are war crazy–it’s in our blood. Bullshit. Nobody is war crazy; I don’t care if you’re a Marine, fellow Ranger, SF, or Delta. I’ve seen all of them come close to shitting their pants just as I almost have. We fight because it’s all we’re taught. A Marine first job is rifleman all else is secondary. Why do you think we have the distinct honor of gaurding the president? “Kill, Kill, Kill” (this was a phrase they made us yell before we could eat). So you see my reluctance to believe these marines on “TV” were speaking of their own free will. Funny, I remember quite a few banged-up guys take quite another stance. They were speaking lest they be ridiculed by people like yourself–senior members of the armed forces. Of course if my unit were still in combat I would feel shame in sleeping in a warm bed–marines are a “band of brothers”–we are protective of our own.[/quote]
I ain’t bad-mouthing the Marines…hell, I love those bastards. Most of the Marines I know are tough as nails and I always remind them that they missed their calling in the Ranger Regiment. But you are acting like the Marines are some crazy killing machines when really, nobody is. In Army basic, we did the same shit as far as screaming KILL! KILL! KILL! Nothing special. Hell, the females in my basic class were doing the same damn thing.
Now, I’ve carried out orders that sometimes I’ve been reluctant to execute, but in some cases I’ve voiced my opinion on the situation, advised against it, and most of the time had to do it anyway. Now, I don’t know how the Marines are, but sometimes the military DOES care about the morale, and opinions of the soldier. RLTW
[quote]rangertab75 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Marines are war crazy–it’s in our blood. Bullshit. Nobody is war crazy; I don’t care if you’re a Marine, fellow Ranger, SF, or Delta. I’ve seen all of them come close to shitting their pants just as I almost have. We fight because it’s all we’re taught. A Marine first job is rifleman all else is secondary. Why do you think we have the distinct honor of gaurding the president? “Kill, Kill, Kill” (this was a phrase they made us yell before we could eat). So you see my reluctance to believe these marines on “TV” were speaking of their own free will. Funny, I remember quite a few banged-up guys take quite another stance. They were speaking lest they be ridiculed by people like yourself–senior members of the armed forces. Of course if my unit were still in combat I would feel shame in sleeping in a warm bed–marines are a “band of brothers”–we are protective of our own.
rangertab75[/quote]
You’re right–marines aren’t war crazy. Marines aren’t taught to kill. And most of all thay are never brainwashed by their training.
Yes everynight before rack time I would mockingly yell “kill, kill, kill” before jumping into my rack–reminding myself not to take anyting I learned in the military too seriously.
You’re right–marines aren’t war crazy. Marines aren’t taught to kill. And most of all thay are never brainwashed by their training.
Yes everynight before rack time I would mockingly yell “kill, kill, kill” before jumping into my rack–reminding myself not to take anyting I learned in the military too seriously.[/quote]
That must be that new shit called sarcasm. OK, I’m used to that from Marines. Let me rephrase…YOU must be war crazy, and most other Marines are not. If they are, then they obviously haven’t been to war. I’ve been to war and I can tell you that it ain’t no fucking picnic. It sucks and it sure as hell isn’t easy killing someone…kinda weighs on your conscience ya know? Especially when you have to shoot a kid going to grab an RPG. If you’ve ever been to war away from your family, friends, living out of a fucking hole as a sandstorm is coming in, haven’t had a shower in 3 weeks, lost some of your buddies, know you ain’t going home for a long fucking time, and scared absolutely shitless, you would agree with me that war sucks, and if you like it; you are one sick motherfucker.
I hate it when cherry infantrymen always brag about how they can’t wait to go to war, love war, can’t wait to put a bullet in some Iraqi’s ass, cause when the chips are on the table, they start shitting their pants saying they miss their mommy as I’m trying to plug their sucking chest wound. And when they finally get to “put a bullet in some Iraqi’s ass” and kill the guy, they don’t talk for days just thinking about the LIFE they had just ended. I’ve seen career infantry men that have been in for many years cry because of what war does to men.
So…the next time you say that Marines are war-crazy; make sure you ask the fucking guys that have actually been to war. They’ll tell ya how much they’re crazy about it. RLTW
[quote]rangertab75 wrote:
That must be that new shit called sarcasm. OK, I’m used to that from Marines. Let me rephrase…YOU must be war crazy, and most other Marines are not. If they are, then they obviously haven’t been to war. I’ve been to war and I can tell you that it ain’t no fucking picnic. It sucks and it sure as hell isn’t easy killing someone…kinda weighs on your conscience ya know? Especially when you have to shoot a kid going to grab an RPG. If you’ve ever been to war away from your family, friends, living out of a fucking hole as a sandstorm is coming in, haven’t had a shower in 3 weeks, lost some of your buddies, know you ain’t going home for a long fucking time, and scared absolutely shitless, you would agree with me that war sucks, and if you like it; you are one sick motherfucker.
So…the next time you say that Marines are war-crazy; make sure you ask the fucking guys that have actually been to war. They’ll tell ya how much they’re crazy about it. RLTW
rangertab75[/quote]
The use of sarcasm was not to actually say “all marines are war crazy”. Poor choice of words on my part. If you read further you will see I was talking about becoming brainwashed by training. Sometimes–especially during intensly emotional periods–it is hard to distinguish between reality and training. That was my only point. It is easy to become brainwashed by things you are taught–especially when you’ve never been given the benefit of free thought.
You cannot tell me that some aspects of training don’t kick in when you’re sitting on a boat waiting to go ashore–mostly young combat virgins–when all you are told is that you better kill before you are killed. Three months on a boat is going to take it’s toll on a young marine.
You have no need to tell me how much combat sucks. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone–especially myself. The non-reality of training exercises was enough to get the point across.
[quote]moe wrote:
Just going to give my $.02 on this… I think its ok to go ahead and say that bush’s foreign policy is crap and even call him a war monger if you will, but wherever your countries? troops are you should support them 100% cause no matter what, they are fighting and even dying for what they think is a noble cause AND we should never give them a reason to think we don’t support them!
–moe[/quote]
But what the fuck does that mean to you Moe? Do you support their actions? Do you provide them with supplies to do a job you know is wrong? Do you call for their return? What does it mean?
Nobody has answered that question in this thread? I wasn’t looking for sympathy fellas, and I don’t think I got my ass handed to me either. I’m just pointing out the fact that this forum is filled with conservative minded people who really dislike my views. I don’t cry over what some geek in cyberspace feels about my post. HAHA, give me a break guys.