Where Does America Stand?!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
1

I’m trying to understand everyone’s view-point on; “Americans in Iraq”. I need clarification from all the T-Nation Political Fanatics regarding Americans’ presence in Iraq. The garble I have gathered, from unnamed sources, has me stumped! So far I have come up with a few Scenarios in regards to stated opinion:

Scenario 1

I believe some of you feel that our presence in Iraq was not needed. And the Iraqi people would have been better off without us intervening. (Example: Taking Sadam Hussein to the cleaners and implementing a government that invokes legitimate laws that serve the people and not the dictator.)

Scenario 2

I believe some of you feel that our presence in Iraq was inspired by their natural resource; “OIL”, and we initiated the “down with nukes” to invade Iraq. (Example: Looking for weapons of mass destruction to line the government’s pockets.) Notice I said government and not our…

Scenario 3

I believe some of you feel that the death of Iraqi people is wrong. (Example: 21 Iraqis died in a car bombing today… Film at eleven!)

Scenario 4, my favorite :wink:

And I also believe some of you feel that the Bush Administration is responsible for the war in Iraq. And the price of oil is a clause for war supporters/anti-war supporters to voice their opinions. (Example: Bush family has investments in energy foundations, weapon development plants, etc? Whenever America declares war on a nation it reaps the spoils of war from the many sells of weapons and development programs implemented. Etc?)

So which one of these scenarios fits you best? If you would like to elaborate on a different point of view, by all means, be my guest…

OD

2

I think we were right to go into Iraq, on both strategic and moral grounds, but I think the best case that can be made against the war is the present state of the Army. Recruiting rates have dropped through the floor, and so will retention once “stop-loss” orders wear off. If we were to face another crisis, be it in North Korea, Pakistan, Taiwan, or anywhere else, I think we would be hard-pressed to respond effectively. Again, I think we were right to go into Iraq, I think the bigger issue is that we haven’t adequately prepared ourselves for the long and global nature of this war, and that ultimately lies at the feet of the Administration.

3

People who believe we went into Iraq for oil or war profiteering or Halliburton are living in a paranoid conspiracy theory dreamworld. Unless you think the President of the United States is a complete idiot (which some of you undoubtedly do), the idea that he would invade Iraq and put both his political legacy and a second term at risk just to get a few bucks for daddy’s buddies is ridiculous.

4

GDollars37,

Thank you for your input.

5

Another scenario may be the viewpoint that the occupation in Iraq hinders the War on Terror and fuels Islamic extremism. Not only were resources diverted from a known terrorist haven in Afghanistan, but 3,000 new ideas for an Al-Qeada recruitment poster were developed.

This is one of my major problems with the Iraq situation.

6

So do your scenarios fit? Let’s review.

Scenario 1: Yes, the US presence was not needed. It does not advance the War on Terror. It sets it back.

But as for whether the Iraqi people are better now, I would say they are better off with Saddam gone.

Scenario 2: A nice little bonus for Bush’s elite friends. Partly, yes.

Scenario 3: Of course the violent death of people is wrong, unless they are evil. Yes.

Scenario 4: As per scenario 2. Yes. It’s interesting- sickeningly so- how much financial interest the Bush family and their friends have in defense contracts.

There’s no simplistic two line scenario you can get to fit my opposition to the Iraq war. There are a multiplicity of reasons. This makes it all the more wrong.

7

[quote]BitterBuffalo wrote:
Another scenario may be the viewpoint that the occupation in Iraq hinders the War on Terror and fuels Islamic extremism. Not only were resources diverted from a known terrorist haven in Afghanistan, but 3,000 new ideas for an Al-Qeada recruitment poster were developed.

This is one of my major problems with the Iraq situation.[/quote]

We could call this scenario five. I agree with this viewpoint.

8

The Iraq War served many purposes on a lot of differnet levels.

  1. Established a base in the center of
    the Middle East.

  2. Proved to the Saudi’s we do not need
    them and do not have to operate in
    their interest. They didn’t get real
    about going after Al-Queda till
    after the invasion. They opposed
    invasion, we went anyway.

  3. We needed to show the Arab’s we were
    serious. The previous administration
    lost face in the Arab world. Going
    in a nailing them within a few weeks
    made a point. The terrorists went
    from hating us and being defiant to
    hating us and fearing us. The
    insurgency, for all the msm
    attention is not supported by the
    people and will not last.

  4. We did the unexpected and by doing
    so took the battle to our enemy at a
    time we choose. The basis for
    winning any war, since the beginning
    of time. You cannot win by mounting
    the best defense you most kill your
    enemy and occupy his land and in
    this cas change his way of thinking.
    (think Japan 1945)

  5. We have laid down rules in a lawless
    part of the world. We deposed an
    evil and ruthless ruler and sent a
    message to the ones who were left.

Could we have done things different, of course. Better? with the wisdom of hindsight of course.

Chalabi for one thing should have been discounted. He was most likely an Iranian agent. The Iranians wanted us there more then anyone.

We should have realized Al-Sistani controlled the shia and worked with him
earlier. Same with the Kurds. The Sunni’s are the enemy. We need to face facts.

It’s a long war, we are at the beginning. The cost of losing is high.

This is my opinion based on observations I have made. I am sure others will have different opinions.

9

And we now have troops on both sides of Iran.

10

I think we were not only right in going into Iraq, but I think we should have taken care of it the first time we were in the area. Now, I hear most of you say: “Oh, the oil, all we want is the oil” all while holding pictures of Bush and Cheney with their Haliburton contacts, etc…

All things aside, let me pose a question to you all to see what you think: Would the Iraqi people be better off had the U.S. never Bthe U.S. arrived, Sadaam Hussein and his tyranny had complete control over the country, and showed no mercy to his own people. The accounts of torture, abuse, murder, genocide go on and on. Most of the country had NO running water before the coalition got there. Before the war, 25% of the countries hospitals were up and running, now, 100% of them are operational.

Living in this country we take for granted things like, being protected by our government/country, instead of the thousands upon thousands being gassed, like the khurds were by Sadaam. The athletes in the country no longer have the pressure of “Win, or die!” that was a hallmark of Sadaam, and his son’s… Almost every city thoughout the country did not have a fully functional police force, or none at all. Girls are NOW, for the first time allowed to attend school in Iraq…Oh yeah, and about the oil???

For all those liberal, tree-hugging protestors out there, the first thing we secured was the oil fields!!! What was our first move you ask? We handed their control over to the Iraqi government, and proceeded to assit them in getting the pumping stations running to produce THEIR oil, in order to generate THEIR money, to help THEIR country! In fact, Iraq just had it’s first 2 billion barrel producing month…The United States is profiting $0.00 on Iraq’s oil so I don’t know what all these people are talking about. We are setting up a legitmate government for the first time in decades, instilling rights among the people, and ridding the region of terrorists that prey on their own innocent civilians. We will look back in 20 years at this thing and reflect upon how vital a free, democratic Iraq is to the enitre middle east and rest of the world for that matter. The ones benefiting MOST from the United States’ involvement in Iraq??? The Iraqi people!
-Cheers

11

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
I think we were not only right in going into Iraq, but I think we should have taken care of it the first time we were in the area. Now, I hear most of you say: “Oh, the oil, all we want is the oil” all while holding pictures of Bush and Cheney with their Haliburton contacts, etc…

All things aside, let me pose a question to you all to see what you think: Would the Iraqi people be better off had the U.S. never Bthe U.S. arrived, Sadaam Hussein and his tyranny had complete control over the country, and showed no mercy to his own people. The accounts of torture, abuse, murder, genocide go on and on. Most of the country had NO running water before the coalition got there. Before the war, 25% of the countries hospitals were up and running, now, 100% of them are operational.

Living in this country we take for granted things like, being protected by our government/country, instead of the thousands upon thousands being gassed, like the khurds were by Sadaam. The athletes in the country no longer have the pressure of “Win, or die!” that was a hallmark of Sadaam, and his son’s… Almost every city thoughout the country did not have a fully functional police force, or none at all. Girls are NOW, for the first time allowed to attend school in Iraq…Oh yeah, and about the oil???

For all those liberal, tree-hugging protestors out there, the first thing we secured was the oil fields!!! What was our first move you ask? We handed their control over to the Iraqi government, and proceeded to assit them in getting the pumping stations running to produce THEIR oil, in order to generate THEIR money, to help THEIR country! In fact, Iraq just had it’s first 2 billion barrel producing month…The United States is profiting $0.00 on Iraq’s oil so I don’t know what all these people are talking about. We are setting up a legitmate government for the first time in decades, instilling rights among the people, and ridding the region of terrorists that prey on their own innocent civilians. We will look back in 20 years at this thing and reflect upon how vital a free, democratic Iraq is to the enitre middle east and rest of the world for that matter. The ones benefiting MOST from the United States’ involvement in Iraq??? The Iraqi people!
-Cheers[/quote]

I vote this one.

12

Todd S.
Thanks for the support…I figured I would get flamed or attacked by what seems to be a left persuasion on a lot of these threads.

13

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
Todd S.
Thanks for the support…I figured I would get flamed or attacked by what seems to be a left persuasion on a lot of these threads. [/quote]

No, I think the war was right and It should have been taken care of along time ago. I also think we should keep going with other countries…

I just never post.

14

[quote]wetdrmscap wrote:
I think we were not only right in going into Iraq, but I think we should have taken care of it the first time we were in the area. Now, I hear most of you say: “Oh, the oil, all we want is the oil” all while holding pictures of Bush and Cheney with their Haliburton contacts, etc…

All things aside, let me pose a question to you all to see what you think: Would the Iraqi people be better off had the U.S. never Bthe U.S. arrived, Sadaam Hussein and his tyranny had complete control over the country, and showed no mercy to his own people. The accounts of torture, abuse, murder, genocide go on and on. Most of the country had NO running water before the coalition got there. Before the war, 25% of the countries hospitals were up and running, now, 100% of them are operational.

Living in this country we take for granted things like, being protected by our government/country, instead of the thousands upon thousands being gassed, like the khurds were by Sadaam. The athletes in the country no longer have the pressure of “Win, or die!” that was a hallmark of Sadaam, and his son’s… Almost every city thoughout the country did not have a fully functional police force, or none at all. Girls are NOW, for the first time allowed to attend school in Iraq…Oh yeah, and about the oil???

For all those liberal, tree-hugging protestors out there, the first thing we secured was the oil fields!!! What was our first move you ask? We handed their control over to the Iraqi government, and proceeded to assit them in getting the pumping stations running to produce THEIR oil, in order to generate THEIR money, to help THEIR country! In fact, Iraq just had it’s first 2 billion barrel producing month…The United States is profiting $0.00 on Iraq’s oil so I don’t know what all these people are talking about. We are setting up a legitmate government for the first time in decades, instilling rights among the people, and ridding the region of terrorists that prey on their own innocent civilians. We will look back in 20 years at this thing and reflect upon how vital a free, democratic Iraq is to the enitre middle east and rest of the world for that matter. The ones benefiting MOST from the United States’ involvement in Iraq??? The Iraqi people!
-Cheers[/quote]

I second this.

15

Wetdrmscap,

Nice name!!!

I appreciate your recent posts.

I must correct you on something, this is most definetly NOT a liberal site.

The name “Testosterone” should be a dead give-away that more people are going to be Conservative.

Think on it. When under the bar, you succeed or fail based on you and you alone.

If you miss it, you miss it. You can’t blame W., your absent father, society, prejudice, or call out 10,000 lawyers (I love you BB) to change the result.

Therefore, most of us on this forum are into things like personal responsibility.

Conservative!!!

JeffR

16

We went to Iraq following the neo-cons belief in Bernard Lewis’ theory that entering the middle east militarily to install a Democratic state would instigate a domino affect in the whole region. Isreal took his advice years ago and now enjoys a peaceful and prosperous existance with its Arab neighbors.

17

Big Dave56 wrote:
“We went to Iraq following the neo-cons belief in Bernard Lewis’ theory that entering the middle east militarily to install a Democratic state would instigate a domino affect in the whole region. Isreal took his advice years ago and now enjoys a peaceful and prosperous existance with its Arab neighbors.”

I’d love to hear Dave’s alternative approach.

Maybe you think absorbing attacks ad infinitum is the way to go.

JeffR

18

Thank you for the intelligent, professional, responses T-Nation. I would like to hear more voices from the “left” side of the house backing up claims of why we went to war with Iraq. However, the Conservatives seem to be closing this one out rather nicely.

wetdrmscap,

Great post!!!

OD

19

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1118289796780.xmas1.jpg

I just got online with T-Nation…

This pretty much solidifies my commitment to it as well as my interest in the information and responses here.

Of course this would be a conservative site as people are intelligent and must back up their thoughts. I don’t think there is a Liberal “Platform”, “Theme” or “Message” that is united or makes any common sense.

I have 1 younger cousin in Iraq on and off. He is going back for a second tour. He obviously believes in his and our mission.

I sometimes tell my liberal mother AND father in law something when they drabble on things like "Bush is a murderer, I wish he were dead, we are viewed as assholes in the world and he?s dragging us into hell etc… I say to them … “move over 2 steps please… to your left, because your bleeding heart is staining my expensive carpets.”

20

I might be the closest thing to a liberal on this site (well except for Lumpy), but I think of myself more as a person who thinks things out instead of going with the party platform.

Well anyway, my whole objection to the war is basically because I think we are going after the wrong people. Bin Laden isn’t in Iraq, Africa is the biggest shithole on earth, North Korea has Nukes. Lets fuck them up first. But I do like the idea of having military bases around Iran.