Possible yes, probable no.
ive been anal in my approach and have managed to cut 3% bodyfat and add 2 chinups to my non stop total in the last 6 weeks.
be prepared to behave perfectly and you can achieve the dual goal.
ofc perfectly differs for each person. it takes a while to get to know your body.
i know that eating low carb clean 5 days a week and carbing up with a little dirty eating for 2 days of the week keeps me cutting whilst not losing weight.
but that same advise would be disastrous for someone else perhaps.
so learn your body! record everything! makes it so much easier.
yup. Im not sure why but every time i diet down for a show i get stronger up until the last 2 weeks before the contest. might just be the Carb depletion rage, but it is consistent. and even if my lifts dont increase, they stay a the same reps/weight so the % of weight to body mass goes up.
[quote]gsmithmusic wrote:
The reason I ask is because I look at the stats of some of the huge and strong guys… and oftentimes they weigh barely more than I do.
I’m 6’ 1" 227 and lean enough to see my abs… I’d say I’m 75% on the jacked scale. But I’m wondering if gaining more weight is really the answer into becoming a true beast.[/quote]
The thing is that you cannot really compare yourself with other guys. Even at the same weight and body comp strength can vary due to leverage factors and the efficiency of the nervous system.
Perfect strength levers + super efficient CNS = lots of strength without having to be huge
Look at Pirros Dimas (olympic lifter). At a body weight of 187lbs he front squats 600lbs, clean & jerk over 450lbs and snatch around 400. Perfect levers … super efficient nervous system.
ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL… a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. But that doesn’t mean that if your muscles are the same size as somebody else’s you will be the same strength.
BUT if YOU gain muscle mass you WILL become stronger (provided that your nervous system stays as efficient as it is now) because your levers wont change.
Now, can you get stronger without getting bigger? Yes. As I mentionned strength is mostly a factor of:
- muscle size (bigger muscles = stronger muscles)
- mechanical levers
- CNS efficiency
- Psychological factors
- Adrenal factors (more release of adrenalin and noradrenalin = more strength)
We’ll focus on the BIG THREE (muscles, lever, CNS).
If your muscle size stays the same, your levers obviously stay the same (cannot really be modified) and you CNS become more efficient, you will get stronger.
So if you are on a slight caloric deficit, you lose some fat BUT no muscle mass AND the type of training you are doing stimulates the CNS… it IS possible to get stronger while getting leaner.
However as somebody else mentionned, it’s a fine line. First because the slightest muscle loss will lead to strength loss. Second because if you are cutting calories too much you might end up with ‘flat’ muscles and water loss. This decrease the force potential of a muscle and how much force a joint can tolerate. So even if you are not losing muscle mass, you might lose strength because of these two factors.
As I said… possible? Yes, but it’s a fine line.
[quote]chutec wrote:
ive been anal in my approach and have managed to cut 3% bodyfat and add 2 chinups to my non stop total in the last 6 weeks.
be prepared to behave perfectly and you can achieve the dual goal.
ofc perfectly differs for each person. it takes a while to get to know your body.
i know that eating low carb clean 5 days a week and carbing up with a little dirty eating for 2 days of the week keeps me cutting whilst not losing weight.
but that same advise would be disastrous for someone else perhaps.
so learn your body! record everything! makes it so much easier.
[/quote]
On a side note Chins will be one move you do get stronger on as you lose weight since you are getting lighter.
D
Very interesting question for me (a longtime lurker) because I will soon attempt my first-ever real “cutting” phase, and I am concerned over the prospect of losing strength. Thanks CT for the great post, and for CT and anyone else, a few follow-up questions:
-
Would muscle memory play a role in this? Example - say I have been “slacking” recently, and as a result strength has decreased. If I start lifting seriously again at a caloric deficit (or even better, a waved caloric deficit), might it not be possible that my strength will return to, and even slightly surpass, previous levels?
-
In regards to calorie waving, better to be on surplus on non-lifting days and deficit on lifting days (for maximal fat loss), or vice-versa? I’m inclined to think non-lifting (recovery) days…
-
Clearly lifting-wise, compund multi-joint CNS-stimulating exercises are the best. But what about frequency and volume? Since you’d be in an overall caloric deficit, you risk overtraining if you are constantly hitting major lifts to stimulate fat loss. Ideas? (I have an idea already but I wanted to see what others think here)
Thanks to all and OP as well.
[quote]doubleh wrote:
Very interesting question for me (a longtime lurker) because I will soon attempt my first-ever real “cutting” phase, and I am concerned over the prospect of losing strength. Thanks CT for the great post, and for CT and anyone else, a few follow-up questions:
-
Would muscle memory play a role in this? Example - say I have been “slacking” recently, and as a result strength has decreased. If I start lifting seriously again at a caloric deficit (or even better, a waved caloric deficit), might it not be possible that my strength will return to, and even slightly surpass, previous levels?
-
In regards to calorie waving, better to be on surplus on non-lifting days and deficit on lifting days (for maximal fat loss), or vice-versa? I’m inclined to think non-lifting (recovery) days…
-
Clearly lifting-wise, compund multi-joint CNS-stimulating exercises are the best. But what about frequency and volume? Since you’d be in an overall caloric deficit, you risk overtraining if you are constantly hitting major lifts to stimulate fat loss. Ideas? (I have an idea already but I wanted to see what others think here)
Thanks to all and OP as well.[/quote]
That was a great post by CT!
-
Depends on how long you’ve been slacking for and how much muscle/strength you have lost I would think.
-
Me personally I would not wave calories. the only change I make is a serving of Surge after training on training days so I guess I do take in 300ish less calories and 50 grams less carbs on rest days
-
I think a more powerlifting style program is better for a fat loss phase like this. As you are not going to be gaining muscle anyways. Like I said in my previous post I keep volume very low, pretty much on Lower days I hit two big ME exercises and than two light accessory exercises. Upper body is fairly similar. One overhead movement, one bench movement (6-8 rep range) not max effort as that is not my emphasis 1 rowing movement and 3-4 sets for biceps.
Hope I am of some help, everyone is different though.
I rotate ME exercises every two weeks, going for a 3-5 rep max 1 week than a 1 rep max the next and than switching them up.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Very interesting question for me (a longtime lurker) because I will soon attempt my first-ever real “cutting” phase, and I am concerned over the prospect of losing strength. Thanks CT for the great post, and for CT and anyone else, a few follow-up questions:
-
Would muscle memory play a role in this? Example - say I have been “slacking” recently, and as a result strength has decreased. If I start lifting seriously again at a caloric deficit (or even better, a waved caloric deficit), might it not be possible that my strength will return to, and even slightly surpass, previous levels?
-
In regards to calorie waving, better to be on surplus on non-lifting days and deficit on lifting days (for maximal fat loss), or vice-versa? I’m inclined to think non-lifting (recovery) days…
-
Clearly lifting-wise, compund multi-joint CNS-stimulating exercises are the best. But what about frequency and volume? Since you’d be in an overall caloric deficit, you risk overtraining if you are constantly hitting major lifts to stimulate fat loss. Ideas? (I have an idea already but I wanted to see what others think here)
Thanks to all and OP as well.
That was a great post by CT!
-
Depends on how long you’ve been slacking for and how much muscle/strength you have lost I would think.
-
Me personally I would not wave calories. the only change I make is a serving of Surge after training on training days so I guess I do take in 300ish less calories and 50 grams less carbs on rest days
-
I think a more powerlifting style program is better for a fat loss phase like this. As you are not going to be gaining muscle anyways. Like I said in my previous post I keep volume very low, pretty much on Lower days I hit two big ME exercises and than two light accessory exercises. Upper body is fairly similar. One overhead movement, one bench movement (6-8 rep range) not max effort as that is not my emphasis 1 rowing movement and 3-4 sets for biceps.
Hope I am of some help, everyone is different though.
I rotate ME exercises every two weeks, going for a 3-5 rep max 1 week than a 1 rep max the next and than switching them up. [/quote]
Thanks Kalle for your reply. I agree with the PL program as well. In fact CT wrote a great article about this some time back, I’ll dig around for the link.
But what about total sets? With 2 big ME exercise, how many sets are you looking at total?
Also, re caloric intake, I think waving makes the most sense if you are trying to preserve as much strength and muscle as possible when cutting. In a caloric deficit the body will utilize fat OR protein (muscle) for energy, and by lifting hard, feeding with protein, etc. we teach the body that the muscles are to be preserved because we need them, and to burn fat instead. This was covered in that article I mentioned. Let me see if I can find the link…
I believe this is it:
[quote]doubleh wrote:
Kalle wrote:
doubleh wrote:
Very interesting question for me (a longtime lurker) because I will soon attempt my first-ever real “cutting” phase, and I am concerned over the prospect of losing strength. Thanks CT for the great post, and for CT and anyone else, a few follow-up questions:
-
Would muscle memory play a role in this? Example - say I have been “slacking” recently, and as a result strength has decreased. If I start lifting seriously again at a caloric deficit (or even better, a waved caloric deficit), might it not be possible that my strength will return to, and even slightly surpass, previous levels?
-
In regards to calorie waving, better to be on surplus on non-lifting days and deficit on lifting days (for maximal fat loss), or vice-versa? I’m inclined to think non-lifting (recovery) days…
-
Clearly lifting-wise, compund multi-joint CNS-stimulating exercises are the best. But what about frequency and volume? Since you’d be in an overall caloric deficit, you risk overtraining if you are constantly hitting major lifts to stimulate fat loss. Ideas? (I have an idea already but I wanted to see what others think here)
Thanks to all and OP as well.
That was a great post by CT!
-
Depends on how long you’ve been slacking for and how much muscle/strength you have lost I would think.
-
Me personally I would not wave calories. the only change I make is a serving of Surge after training on training days so I guess I do take in 300ish less calories and 50 grams less carbs on rest days
-
I think a more powerlifting style program is better for a fat loss phase like this. As you are not going to be gaining muscle anyways. Like I said in my previous post I keep volume very low, pretty much on Lower days I hit two big ME exercises and than two light accessory exercises. Upper body is fairly similar. One overhead movement, one bench movement (6-8 rep range) not max effort as that is not my emphasis 1 rowing movement and 3-4 sets for biceps.
Hope I am of some help, everyone is different though.
I rotate ME exercises every two weeks, going for a 3-5 rep max 1 week than a 1 rep max the next and than switching them up.
Thanks Kalle for your reply. I agree with the PL program as well. In fact CT wrote a great article about this some time back, I’ll dig around for the link.
But what about total sets? With 2 big ME exercise, how many sets are you looking at total?
Also, re caloric intake, I think waving makes the most sense if you are trying to preserve as much strength and muscle as possible when cutting. In a caloric deficit the body will utilize fat OR protein (muscle) for energy, and by lifting hard, feeding with protein, etc. we teach the body that the muscles are to be preserved because we need them, and to burn fat instead. This was covered in that article I mentioned. Let me see if I can find the link…[/quote]
I don’t know I just do as many sets as needed as warm ups working to a max
example my current max DL is 430 so if I am going for a new 1 rep max in the DL it would be like this
Deadlift
135x5
225x3
315x1
365x1
405x1
435x1
Maybe a back off set down to 80-85% and get a solid 5 reps depending on how I feel
365x5
Followed by
Front Squat
135x5
185x5
225x3
245x3
245x3
maybe a third set at 245… just getting a couple get sets of 3-5 reps in at 80-85% of max
If I didn’t do strongman events on the weekend I would do more volume during the week. I do think I am going to add in some unilateral leg work (lunges, Bulgarian split squats, etc) after the two movements though.
I think on paper waving the caloric intake makes the most sense but you recover on off days as well. Eating to little of calories on off days will make it harder to recover which is already hard enough eating a caloric deficit. I think the +/- of a PWO protein drink or an extra protein/carb meal of around 300-350 calories is enough of a difference.
[quote]doubleh wrote:
I believe this is it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/...c.do?id=1499282
[/quote]
The link is not working for me
[quote]Kalle wrote:
detazathoth wrote:
Yes you can, but is it easy? Hell no.
Correct answer.
How do PL’s stay in the same weight class but get stronger?
I’ve lost 9lbs in the past 3-4 weeks and have hit PR’s EVERY Max effort day so far.
I did decrease the overall volume of my training A LOT though.
I train with a modified Westside split with a strongman events day on the weekend.
I went from 5 days a week to 3-4 and on my ME Lower day it is
ME Deadlift or Squat rotating exercises every 1-2 weeks followed by vice versa for a accessory movement (but kept heavy) than 3-4 sets of Lats (I train Lats on ME Lower day for whatever reason)than 2-3 sets weighted ab work
Example
week 1 ME Deadlift, front squat Lat Pulldown Kneeling rope crunch
Week 2 ME Wide Stance Squat, rack pulls, lat pulldown decline weighted situps
etc…
If you keep the overall volume down and just hit the money exercises hard its possible[/quote]
Kalle, I love you
For some reason, low volume workouts are awesome for me for both bulking and cutting. I basically do the same thing that you do. Weird. Also, I found that doing full body workouts, while for me not ideal for strength gains, is fantastic for me to just maintain strength. But like I said it’s not easy, but deff. a reality.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
-
Me personally I would not wave calories. the only change I make is a serving of Surge after training on training days so I guess I do take in 300ish less calories and 50 grams less carbs on rest days
-
I think a more powerlifting style program is better for a fat loss phase like this. As you are not going to be gaining muscle anyways. Like I said in my previous post I keep volume very low, pretty much on Lower days I hit two big ME exercises and than two light accessory exercises. Upper body is fairly similar. One overhead movement, one bench movement (6-8 rep range) not max effort as that is not my emphasis 1 rowing movement and 3-4 sets for biceps.
[/quote]
Kalle, do you think WS4SB would work well for cutting? I was thinking of using that program for fat loss. I agree with you, a power lifting type program that focuses on increasing or maintaining strength seems like the best bet. The main concern is that WS4SB has a ton of volume, but maybe sticking on the lower end of the rep ranges would work.
I’ve had good experience waving calories around in a carb cycling way. For trying to control fat gain while adding mass it works great to keep carbs around work outs. But then, if you don’t car about staying super lean, just about lifting heavy shit, then it doesn’t matter at all. As a former fatty, I’m somewhat carbphobic. OP, you should try the carb cycling for idiots (or whatever it was called) posted recently. It works really well for adding muscle mass while keeping fat in check. I’ve done it for the past 6 months or so pretty much instinctively, and added close to 20lbs with not so much fat (granted i’m still a newb).
[quote]boyscout wrote:
Kalle wrote:
-
Me personally I would not wave calories. the only change I make is a serving of Surge after training on training days so I guess I do take in 300ish less calories and 50 grams less carbs on rest days
-
I think a more powerlifting style program is better for a fat loss phase like this. As you are not going to be gaining muscle anyways. Like I said in my previous post I keep volume very low, pretty much on Lower days I hit two big ME exercises and than two light accessory exercises. Upper body is fairly similar. One overhead movement, one bench movement (6-8 rep range) not max effort as that is not my emphasis 1 rowing movement and 3-4 sets for biceps.
Kalle, do you think WS4SB would work well for cutting? I was thinking of using that program for fat loss. I agree with you, a power lifting type program that focuses on increasing or maintaining strength seems like the best bet. The main concern is that WS4SB has a ton of volume, but maybe sticking on the lower end of the rep ranges would work.
I’ve had good experience waving calories around in a carb cycling way. For trying to control fat gain while adding mass it works great to keep carbs around work outs. But then, if you don’t car about staying super lean, just about lifting heavy shit, then it doesn’t matter at all. As a former fatty, I’m somewhat carbphobic. OP, you should try the carb cycling for idiots (or whatever it was called) posted recently. It works really well for adding muscle mass while keeping fat in check. I’ve done it for the past 6 months or so pretty much instinctively, and added close to 20lbs with not so much fat (granted i’m still a newb).[/quote]
It depends on what your number 1 priority is
Is it gaining strength or losing fat?
For me it is by far gaining strength so fat loss is a secondary goal. I am happier with a slower pace of fat loss as long as my strength doesn’t suffer.
I think WS4SB II would work for fat loss without getting to weak with some adaptions. It is only a 3 day a week program so I am sure you could recover fine while on a calorie deficit.
The one thing is I don’t know how the RE Upper day where you go for max reps, I am not sure how beneficial that would be on a calorie deficit as the term “Westside for a skinny bastard” was cued for small weak athletes so I think how the RE day and a lot of the rest of the program is set up for hypertrophy for someone that is newbie/just generally weak with no actually weaknesses if you know what I mean?
Of course with the whole getting leaner and stronger concept you have to factor in how lean/how strong the lifter is. I imagine there is a limit point where someone has to sacrifice some strength to get to a very low BF% which will vary from individual to individual. Me I decided to cut the fat off I was probably 20-22% BF I want to get to around 12% this should be a lot easier to do than say go from 12% to 6% while maintaining/gaining strength.
Also if someone is a more advanced lifter say, deadlifts 600+lbs I imagine it would be a lot harder for that person to gain strength while getting leaner.
Basically what I am getting is if someone is basically a newbie who wants to get stronger but has some extra fat to lose it will be a lot easier than a fairly lean advanced lifter that wants to get really lean.
[quote]1morerep wrote:
i’d say your diet would have to be extremely fine tuned[/quote]
I second this completely.
Your numbers would tell what you can do relative to your weight. Say your squatting 300 lbs, you haven’t even approached the top strength of the muscle you currently have so getting lean and getting stronger won’t be that difficult. If your max squatting 450 double your bodyweight already, then your strength will come alot slower. Gaining muscle and cutting is a lot more difficult than gaining strength and cutting.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
The one thing is I don’t know how the RE Upper day where you go for max reps, I am not sure how beneficial that would be on a calorie deficit as the term “Westside for a skinny bastard” was cued for small weak athletes so I think how the RE day and a lot of the rest of the program is set up for hypertrophy for someone that is newbie/just generally weak with no actually weaknesses if you know what I mean?
[/quote]
I got ya. I’m no skinny bastard (6’2" 207ish), but I am a weak bastard. And I’ve put a lot of weight on the big three on WS4SB. I still suck at all of them, but less than before. It seems as if most of my strength gains have been coming from training the CNS more than anything. I’ve gained about 20lbs. since July, but I also did a cycle of TBT then switched WS4SB.
But also, keep in mind that even CT recommends high rep circuit style training followed by some cardio to help absorb the free fatty acids released during a lactate inducing work out. Maybe the RE could work well with shortened rest periods and the addition of steady state cardio afterwards. But then, why not just do two ME days with some auxiliary work and put in a lactate inducing circuit day?
Everyone is right, though. For a newb, it should be easy to drop fat and gain muscle. We all did it when we started. I certainly did, and I did some stupid lifting routines for 6 months. For the advanced lifter, that’s another story.
[quote]boyscout wrote:
Kalle wrote:
The one thing is I don’t know how the RE Upper day where you go for max reps, I am not sure how beneficial that would be on a calorie deficit as the term “Westside for a skinny bastard” was cued for small weak athletes so I think how the RE day and a lot of the rest of the program is set up for hypertrophy for someone that is newbie/just generally weak with no actually weaknesses if you know what I mean?
I got ya. I’m no skinny bastard (6’2" 207ish), but I am a weak bastard. And I’ve put a lot of weight on the big three on WS4SB. I still suck at all of them, but less than before. It seems as if most of my strength gains have been coming from training the CNS more than anything. I’ve gained about 20lbs. since July, but I also did a cycle of TBT then switched WS4SB.
But also, keep in mind that even CT recommends high rep circuit style training followed by some cardio to help absorb the free fatty acids released during a lactate inducing work out. Maybe the RE could work well with shortened rest periods and the addition of steady state cardio afterwards. But then, why not just do two ME days with some auxiliary work and put in a lactate inducing circuit day?
Everyone is right, though. For a newb, it should be easy to drop fat and gain muscle. We all did it when we started. I certainly did, and I did some stupid lifting routines for 6 months. For the advanced lifter, that’s another story.[/quote]
I think WS4SB would work well for you, give it a try, I think you have some good points about the RE day. Like I said if I didn’t have a strongman event day I would be doing more volume in the gym. I doubt the RE Upper day is more demanding from a recovery standpoint than my event day.
Give it a shot!
[quote]Kalle wrote:
doubleh wrote:
I believe this is it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/...c.do?id=1499282
The link is not working for me[/quote]
Good, I put the wrong article there anyway. I was having all sorts of trouble with the website yesterday. Here is the link:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=517831
and here’s another one:
[quote]doubleh wrote:
Kalle wrote:
doubleh wrote:
I believe this is it:
http://www.T-Nation.com/...c.do?id=1499282
The link is not working for me
Good, I put the wrong article there anyway. I was having all sorts of trouble with the website yesterday. Here is the link:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=517831
and here’s another one:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1499282 [/quote]
Thanks for the links! I liked the first one, very simple and to the point. Like a cut down version of the second one.
Funny as that is pretty much exactly what I’ve been doing (working sets around 80-100%, taking HRX everyday and Power Drive before workouts, keeping volume lower.)