Can We Start a Roundtable? Legs.

Training
21

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

  • having separate sessions for quads and hamstrings. If you train with with high intensity and high volume, this is almost necessary I think.
    [/quote]

Interesting. I just read Amit’s article and he advocates the same thing with what seems like a good amount of volume per each.

I may give his program a go for a bit.[/quote]

Yes, but worth mentioning that Meadows is convinced that there is benefit to be had from training both at the same time due to their antagonism. This is probably one of those things that’s either “both will work if done properly” or “it depends on the person.”[/quote]

Like I said separating the two seems a necessity if you hit legs really hard BBing style. Let’s make this more specific. For a couple weeks now I hit quads old-school style with this ex-BBer and here is what we do

A. Leg ext.
ramp up with sets of 10 to a new all-out 10RM PR
3 triple drop sets with 8 reps each trying to break previous records/all to failure
→ all rest intervals are short
→ this is extremely painful; hard to walk afterwards

B. Oly squats
ramp up with sets of 10 to an all-out set of 10 reps or failure
→ brutal as hell after the leg ext. - I typically feel sick after this

C. Leg press or hack squats
3-4 ramps with sets to 10 to failure
→ feeling even more sick typically

D. Walking BB lunges
3 walks around the gym with increasing weights + non-lockout squats to failure after the round
→ feeling dead and sick after this

If someone can hit hamstrings hard ON TOP of the above work then you are pretty awesome. In other words, I would have to tone down the intensity and/or volume to be able to hit hamstrings with such effort.

You might say that going all-out like that is not really necessary for hypertrophy but well…

22

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

  • having separate sessions for quads and hamstrings. If you train with with high intensity and high volume, this is almost necessary I think.
    [/quote]

Interesting. I just read Amit’s article and he advocates the same thing with what seems like a good amount of volume per each.

I may give his program a go for a bit.[/quote]

Yes, but worth mentioning that Meadows is convinced that there is benefit to be had from training both at the same time due to their antagonism. This is probably one of those things that’s either “both will work if done properly” or “it depends on the person.”[/quote]

Like I said separating the two seems a necessity if you hit legs really hard BBing style. Let’s make this more specific. For a couple weeks now I hit quads old-school style with this ex-BBer and here is what we do

A. Leg ext.
ramp up with sets of 10 to a new all-out 10RM PR
3 triple drop sets with 8 reps each trying to break previous records/all to failure
→ all rest intervals are short
→ this is extremely painful; hard to walk afterwards

B. Oly squats
ramp up with sets of 10 to an all-out set of 10 reps or failure
→ brutal as hell after the leg ext. - I typically feel sick after this

C. Leg press or hack squats
3-4 ramps with sets to 10 to failure
→ feeling even more sick typically

D. Walking BB lunges
3 walks around the gym with increasing weights + non-lockout squats to failure after the round
→ feeling dead and sick after this

If someone can hit hamstrings hard ON TOP of the above work then you are pretty awesome. In other words, I would have to tone down the intensity and/or volume to be able to hit hamstrings with such effort.

You might say that going all-out like that is not really necessary for hypertrophy but well…[/quote]

Thanks for elaborating on that. What does the hamstring/posterior day look like?

23

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]aspengc8 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

  • having separate sessions for quads and hamstrings. If you train with with high intensity and high volume, this is almost necessary I think.
    [/quote]

Interesting. I just read Amit’s article and he advocates the same thing with what seems like a good amount of volume per each.

I may give his program a go for a bit.[/quote]

Yes, but worth mentioning that Meadows is convinced that there is benefit to be had from training both at the same time due to their antagonism. This is probably one of those things that’s either “both will work if done properly” or “it depends on the person.”[/quote]

Like I said separating the two seems a necessity if you hit legs really hard BBing style. Let’s make this more specific. For a couple weeks now I hit quads old-school style with this ex-BBer and here is what we do

A. Leg ext.
ramp up with sets of 10 to a new all-out 10RM PR
3 triple drop sets with 8 reps each trying to break previous records/all to failure
→ all rest intervals are short
→ this is extremely painful; hard to walk afterwards

B. Oly squats
ramp up with sets of 10 to an all-out set of 10 reps or failure
→ brutal as hell after the leg ext. - I typically feel sick after this

C. Leg press or hack squats
3-4 ramps with sets to 10 to failure
→ feeling even more sick typically

D. Walking BB lunges
3 walks around the gym with increasing weights + non-lockout squats to failure after the round
→ feeling dead and sick after this

If someone can hit hamstrings hard ON TOP of the above work then you are pretty awesome. In other words, I would have to tone down the intensity and/or volume to be able to hit hamstrings with such effort.

You might say that going all-out like that is not really necessary for hypertrophy but well…[/quote]

Thanks for elaborating on that. What does the hamstring/posterior day look like? [/quote]

A. RDLs with BB
B. Seated leg curls
C. Lying leg curls
D. Back ext.

With similar intensity methods.

24

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Some random thoughts on leg work:

  • RE: 20-rep squats: Taking three deep breaths between each rep, starting from the first, is an overlooked but useful old school trick. Let’s you go just a little bit heavier and forces you to pace yourself for the full 20 reps instead of going balls out for the first 10 and then try to catch up and rest enough to gut out the last 10.

  • Leg curls immediately before squats (“Meadows-style” for a pump) works well and feels good.

  • Front squats immediately before back squats also works well and feels relatively-good, but isn’t for beginners as it’s easy to over-fatigue everything too soon.

  • Leg curls are more important than leg extensions, whether we’re talking about size, strength, or certainly knee-health.

  • Single-leg exercises and the leg press get a bad rap that they don’t really deserve.

  • If you can reach, touch the working hamstring during standing leg curls for a cool boost to the mind-muscle connection.[/quote]

Completely agree with the above - especially the leg curls before squats, and the bad rap the leg press gets

I’ve gotten more size out of high rep, heavy(ish) leg presses than anything else … I still squat, mostly because I don’t want to be that guy that DOESN’T squat, but when trying to add leg size the LP is my go to

25

[quote]Velvet Elvis wrote:
I still squat, mostly because I don’t want to be that guy that DOESN’T squat, [/quote]

Bad reason to keep doing something.

26

My legs have been decent. I’ve done different squat programs from 3x5 3x10, 4x3. 531 I agree that you have to be moving heavier weights for hypertrophy, but I feel that squatting frequency is key as well. Hamstring curls have been great for adding much needed size to my hammies.

Extensions I find are good for toning up the area around the knee cap. I try to get a heavy work out in once a week and a more of a light/form day in which I will change stance and angle of feet to hit different areas of the quaddie. The most important thing to get the most out of your training is form, so practicing the actual movement with a lighter load helps polish your technique with heavier loads. Ive also done lots of sprints in hockey and outside for leg growth, sprinting on your feet, skates, bike, possibly an elliptical can all be used. I don’t find that leg presses work for myself but I plan on giving it another go soon.

It’s obviously great for hypertrophy, I’m more concerned with squatting though, I find it has little carry over for myself. Shore and Colluci have good points so I’ll let the more experienced guys chime in just thought I’d share my own experience and what works for me.

27

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
…but I’ve actually seen more leg growth in the last two weeks of squatting to 5x a week than I did with anything else prior…[/quote]

So, if I’m understanding correctly, you’ve been squatting 5x a week for the last 2 weeks?
[/quote]

Six days a week. Squatting to a training 1RM (which has fluctuated within a 20lb window) for 5 of those days. Those were followed with work sets. 6th day only to 80% of the weekly max with no work sets. 7th day off.

EDIT: yeah, I did say 5x. When I originally wrote that sentence, it was “squatting to a max 5x a week”. Then I rewrote it without adjusting the number.[/quote]

The issue is that you’ve been doing that for 2 weeks, there is no way in hell you can ascertain that the growth you’ve noticed is due to what you’ve been doing the past 2 weeks or the previous 3 months. [/quote]

It’s good you reiterated that. That’s what I’d said in my original post too.

My bad dude, skimming too much.

28

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

A. Leg ext.
ramp up with sets of 10 to a new all-out 10RM PR
3 triple drop sets with 8 reps each trying to break previous records/all to failure
→ all rest intervals are short
→ this is extremely painful; hard to walk afterwards

B. Oly squats
ramp up with sets of 10 to an all-out set of 10 reps or failure
→ brutal as hell after the leg ext. - I typically feel sick after this

C. Leg press or hack squats
3-4 ramps with sets to 10 to failure
→ feeling even more sick typically

D. Walking BB lunges
3 walks around the gym with increasing weights + non-lockout squats to failure after the round
→ feeling dead and sick after this

If someone can hit hamstrings hard ON TOP of the above work then you are pretty awesome. In other words, I would have to tone down the intensity and/or volume to be able to hit hamstrings with such effort.

You might say that going all-out like that is not really necessary for hypertrophy but well…[/quote]

I mean, on some level this is to each his own. I would say, though, that my routine this past Saturday bears comparison:

Back squats (glutes, quads): 1x20, 1x12, 1x7, 2x6 (3-sec descent), 2x8 (3sd)
SLDL (hams): 4x15 (3 sec descent, constant tension)
Heel-elevated smith machine squats (quads): 1x20, 2x12, 1x15
Leg Press/Lunges (quads): 4 sets of 30-50

Ham Curls
Leg Extensions [paired together, use intensifiers on ham curls not extensions]

It’s not really all that different from yours–incorporates one extra exercise basically-- and seems to cover all bases. Though certainly on some days I could tweak to do a more ‘quad-centric’ or ‘ham-centric’ session.

More than one way to skin a cat, and perhaps sometime in the future I’ll get more serious about splitting the two. But I certainly don’t think it’s in any way necessary generally.

29

I’ve been the guy who has “big legs” for his tiny frame, so called “runners legs” but they certainly are only better than a complete non-athlete’s pair of wheels. And I never realized why until I took my attention off my upper body for once :-0. I’ve got this nice sweep on the outer but virtually ZERO teardrop.

I’ve noticed since i’ve been using a “duck stance” while hack squatting and ankles in on the leg ext, the teardrop has been more pumped. Not sure if its real growth or just inflammation.

I’d love to hear some roundtable from anyone that seriously needed to work on the VMO and how you attacked it.

I’ve all but dumped traditional BB squats since I cannot go anywhere near parellel without plate lifts and personally the fact that I can get my ass down on a machine is very attrative. The ROM is just so much better. So right now I dont think BB Squats are the answer becasue I have mobility issues that are a major roadblock to progress.

30

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

A. Leg ext.
ramp up with sets of 10 to a new all-out 10RM PR
3 triple drop sets with 8 reps each trying to break previous records/all to failure
→ all rest intervals are short
→ this is extremely painful; hard to walk afterwards

B. Oly squats
ramp up with sets of 10 to an all-out set of 10 reps or failure
→ brutal as hell after the leg ext. - I typically feel sick after this

C. Leg press or hack squats
3-4 ramps with sets to 10 to failure
→ feeling even more sick typically

D. Walking BB lunges
3 walks around the gym with increasing weights + non-lockout squats to failure after the round
→ feeling dead and sick after this

If someone can hit hamstrings hard ON TOP of the above work then you are pretty awesome. In other words, I would have to tone down the intensity and/or volume to be able to hit hamstrings with such effort.

You might say that going all-out like that is not really necessary for hypertrophy but well…[/quote]

I mean, on some level this is to each his own. I would say, though, that my routine this past Saturday bears comparison:

Back squats (glutes, quads): 1x20, 1x12, 1x7, 2x6 (3-sec descent), 2x8 (3sd)
SLDL (hams): 4x15 (3 sec descent, constant tension)
Heel-elevated smith machine squats (quads): 1x20, 2x12, 1x15
Leg Press/Lunges (quads): 4 sets of 30-50

Ham Curls
Leg Extensions [paired together, use intensifiers on ham curls not extensions]

It’s not really all that different from yours–incorporates one extra exercise basically-- and seems to cover all bases. Though certainly on some days I could tweak to do a more ‘quad-centric’ or ‘ham-centric’ session.

More than one way to skin a cat, and perhaps sometime in the future I’ll get more serious about splitting the two. But I certainly don’t think it’s in any way necessary generally.[/quote]

There really is no need for a dick-sizing contest here. While I seriously doubt there are many people that don’t feel dead after going through our session with the same all out intensity (that is the key, not exercise & set-rep schemes), I have no problems accepting that you are one of them.

However, I think the more important question is whether going all-out is really needed for optimal gains. Probably not, but for me that is the only way to make BBing training fun…

31

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

There really is no need for a dick-sizing contest here. While I seriously doubt there are many people that don’t feel dead after going through our session with the same all out intensity (that is the key, not exercise & set-rep schemes), I have no problems accepting that you are one of them.

However, I think the more important question is whether going all-out is really needed for optimal gains. Probably not, but for me that is the only way to make BBing training fun… [/quote]

Sorry–didn’t mean to turn it into that, which is why I prefaced my comments with “to each his own,” as I don’t think there’s only one way to make great progress. Just meant to say that imo the entire thigh musculature can be hit in one workout with adequate volume and intensity, that’s all.

32

Always been blessed with legs, both in strength and size. I get quad pumps running to class. I’ve never stopped squatting in my routine ever, but it’s not always first or second.
Sometimes I squat last which is a great idea for people with legs that won’t grow. My friend had horrible trouble with his legs and they got better over night once he began to squat last. If anything it has to do with getting a pump first that helps with mmc.
You don’t have to squat though, the leg press and other alternatives are just fine. This is especially true with people that have long legs.

Machines should be utilized . Period. There one of the best ways to push through failure and drop set. Squatting often stops not because of the legs failing, but the form. A hack squat or leg press keeps you safe when pushing past those zones.

33

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Some random thoughts on leg work:

  • RE: 20-rep squats: Taking three deep breaths between each rep, starting from the first, is an overlooked but useful old school trick. Let’s you go just a little bit heavier and forces you to pace yourself for the full 20 reps instead of going balls out for the first 10 and then try to catch up and rest enough to gut out the last 10.
    [/quote]

Couldn’t disagree more with this. IMO, it’s really important to keep the TUT as constant and consistent as possible during the workset. Not so if your goal is just to do the heaviest set possible, but I’ll say that doing my set with at least the first 13 before stopping may cost me 20lbs of weight but

34

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Velvet Elvis wrote:
I still squat, mostly because I don’t want to be that guy that DOESN’T squat, [/quote]

Bad reason to keep doing something. [/quote]

Man does not live by hammer strength alone, X …