California Unemployment Rate Hits 12.5%

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Do yourself a favor. Read:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=M2Q3YTQxNTVjZjRhM2U4ZTdjNmM4NmQ0N2RmNWU5YWQ

Generations of Exclusion: Mexican-Americans, Assimilation, and Race: Telles,...

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2006/10/putnam-on-diversity.html
http://www.heritage.org/research/immigration/sr14.cfm [/quote]

Let’s see:

-The book at Amazon “identif[ies] institutional barriers as a major source of Mexican American disadvantage. Chronic under-funding in school systems predominately serving Mexican Americans severely restrains progress. Persistent discrimination, punitive immigration policies, and reliance on cheap Mexican labor in the southwestern states all make integration more difficult”…none of which is in dispute and which does not support the idea that Mexican immigrants are inherently endowed with inferior intellectual abilities.

-Mankiw’s blog discusses the inherent problems of Balkanization that can arise in ethnically diverse areas…none of which is in dispute and which does not support the idea that Mexican immigrants are inherently endowed with inferior intellectual abilities.

-the Heritage page discusses the (bad) economic impact of low-skill, unassimilated immigrants…none of which is in dispute and which does not support the idea that Mexican immigrants are inherently endowed with inferior intellectual abilities.

-that leaves the NR page, which discusses the performance gap in Hispanice children compared to white and Asian counterparts and actually supports my point because McDonald (and the study itself) emphasize cultural problems (lack of emphasis on learning at home, etc. versus inherent lack of brainpower).

So, three out of your four “data sources” are answers in search of questions, since I am not arguing to the contrary on those points. Your fourth source - actually relevant to the point I made - supports my contention, not yours.

Better luck next time.

When you come up with data refuting my data that California immigrants (overwhelmingly Mexican) have low educational achievement (regardless of the generation), high welfare dependence, and produce no growth in productivity via technological innovation, we can continue this discussion.

I don’t need to refute your precious “data” because I am not disagreeing with any of it. My point is that won’t indulge the idea that these are a result of Mexicans being inherently lacking in “intellectual abilities” as opposed to other reasons (culture).

Again, you are arguing with yourself. No amount of “data” can cure a lack of reading comprehension, so stop trying to hide triumphantly behind your “data”.

Of course, you’re sitting in your enclave somewhere telling us about how California really is, despite the fact that we live here and you don’t.

This is rich. First, I am not telling you how CA really is, but I never took you for the peevish, hyper-sensitive type.

Secondly, does this convenient rule apply to you? You are not a Muslim, nor do you don’t live in a Muslim country, nor are you present in Islamic culture, but Lord knows you have lectured and lectured chapter and verse on what Islam really means and on what Muslims really think and how their societies work.

In fact, if there is a topic you have spilled more cyber-ink on than illegal immigration, it’s informing everyone as to how Islam really is…from, of course, your “little enclave somewhere”.

So, PRC - are you subject to your own handy, dandy rule requiring local, immersed knowledge before you lecture those who live there on how things “really are”?

Because you have disqualified yourself on one of your most favorite topics. Well done.

I haven’t even gotten into the ethnic composition of housing foreclosures in CA/NV/AZ. That might make your head explode with the apoplectic “Racism!” screams it would generate in you.

Irrelevant. Housing foreclosures aren’t indicative of whether folks of Hispanic ethnicity have “intellectual limitations”.

You indicated Hispanics had zero intellectual abilities - not measurable results, but ability. Can’t unring that bell, no matter how many irrelevant rabbit holes you insist on going down.

I simply said I refused to indulge that attitude regarding immigrants - none of the rest (problems of lack of assimilation, economic fallout, welfare state problems, etc.), I disagreed with. The rest of your shrill response - attacking straw men with “data!” - is a function of your inability to listen, notihng else.

[PRCalDude]

This is rich. First, I am not telling you how CA really is, but I never took you for the peevish, hyper-sensitive type.

I never took you as the person to engage in typical leftist ad hominems, either. We learn something new all the time.

You indicated Hispanics had zero intellectual abilities - not measurable results, but ability. Can’t unring that bell, no matter how many irrelevant rabbit holes you insist on going down.

I could go ahead and dig up Hispanic SAT scores and University of California enrollment, but nothing would matter to you.

They well have buried cognitive tendencies that are suppressed by an anti-intellectual culture. Who knows? The fact is that they haven’t proven themselves capable of performing academically in this state or any other.

We read stories about lagging Latino (read: Mexican) educational achievement all the time now, just as we have about lagging black educational achievement.

People like you perform this mental hand-waving and pretend that the achievement gap is somehow going to close (we haven’t succeeded in closing it with blacks in 70+ years of trying) or that it really isn’t there in the first place or is the fault of racism.

[quote]Secondly, does this convenient rule apply to you? You are not a Muslim, nor do you don’t live in a Muslim country, nor are you present in Islamic culture, but Lord knows you have lectured and lectured chapter and verse on what Islam really means and on what Muslims really think and how their societies work.

In fact, if there is a topic you have spilled more cyber-ink on than illegal immigration, it’s informing everyone as to how Islam really is…from, of course, your “little enclave somewhere”.

So, PRC - are you subject to your own handy, dandy rule requiring local, immersed knowledge before you lecture those who live there on how things “really are”?[/quote]

I’ve simply dragged in sources inconvenient to the “religion of peace” mantra and presented them, to wit, Islamic source texts, jurisprudence, etc. I’ve presented data here about illegal immigration. Several people have disagreed with you besides myself. You think you have no burden of proof for any of your claims. Happy-talk suffices as proof for you. For us, we have data AND experience. YOu have neither.

Housing foreclosures aren’t indicative of whether folks of Hispanic ethnicity have “intellectual limitations”.

Really? So failure to understand loan documents or apathy about their meaning is not an “intellectual limitation” in your mind? What is?

Incidentally, here’s what I actually said:

I hope you realize that the intellectual capital of the majority of new immigrants to California is exactly zero. That’s a huge part of California’s problem: a middle class was replaced demographically with a third-world welfare dependent peasant class with no intellectual abilities - at least none proven so far.

I never said whether this lack of ability is nature or nurture. In fact, I believe it to be mostly nurture, but how is that any better? How is it better that the offspring of illegal immigrants have low academic achievement due to poor parenting rather than just plain stupidity? Do you know how to fix that problem?

It may be that they will turn it around culturally in the future. I am not optimistic.

Illegal immigrant Mexicans are not a cohort of Sergey Brins - they are overwhelmingly gardeners, construction workers, and service industry workers. The are not providers of intellectual capital. They are uneducated. Why this is hard for you to admit I have no idea.

[titopuente]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I could go ahead and dig up Hispanic SAT scores and University of California enrollment, but nothing would matter to you.

They well have buried cognitive tendencies that are suppressed by an anti-intellectual culture. Who knows? The fact is that they haven’t proven themselves capable of performing academically in this state or any other.

[/quote]

You could bring up SAT scores and how they would be lower in Hispanic immigrants, but than again, what language is the SAT written in? It is written in English, and that would have a dramatic effect on the score of the someone who is taking it and is barely learning English.
Hispanic culture is not anti-intellectual, their public education system is just no good because they don’t have enough money. I live in Texas, by the way, so we have the exact same problem here as you do in California.

[MaximusB]

I have to disagree with you Tito.

First off, I came here not knowing English, not a word of it. Then, I went to school when ESL didn’t even exist. And thank God it didn’t exist. So what happened? It made me work even harder at learning English. I agree with you, that not knowing the language clearly makes it downright impossible, but giving up is not the answer. I studied very hard to learn English, reading as much as I could. I taught myself English, with the help of some American friends I made, who saw how I wanted to learn but struggled. You either step and and try harder, or blame it on language barriers. And quite honestly, it’s pure bullshit. Should I have expected everyone else to cater to me by learning Italian to accommodate me? Shit no, I knew this was America and no one was going to meet me half way.

Public education is funded by the state, there is no use for money when going to public school, other than feeding yourself. Also with the advent of the internet and it’s multi-lingual abilities, there really is no excuse. Shit, nowadays, you don’t even need to go to the library anymore, like many of us did. Ya know, the whole Dewey Decimal System and all. I do not accept the excuse that money or lack of it is why ethnic students do not do well in public schools. My family came here with $500 and the clothing on our backs, back in 1980, and we were alot farther away from home than simply crossing the Southern Border.

[666Rich]

Maximus i applaud your effort. My family is 3rd generation and they came here without knowing english and LEARNED. Im not racist but we shouldnt be teaching in fucking spanish.

Anyways, my girlfriend is going to school in San Diego, so i have been looking for work out there. Lovely city, but it seems like it blows for someone who is not A. a waiter, B. in pharm industry and C. A software engineer. I have a degree in Economics and Geology and I see nothing for me . Any tips?

[MaximusB]

I agree 666Rich, we should not be teaching in Spanish.

My tip is to have your girlfriend transfer out of California. I am not trying to sound like a dick, but honestly California is so fucked up that if you can avoid it, I would make the effort to. San Diego is very nice, but they are being hit hard with unemployment. The whole state is really messed up, and we have some of the worst politicians in the whole country, Pelosi came from here, that should give you an idea. Many people have left or are leaving to avoid the insane taxes.

[PRCalDude]

[quote]titopuente wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

You could bring up SAT scores and how they would be lower in Hispanic immigrants, but than again, what language is the SAT written in? It is written in English, and that would have a dramatic effect on the score of the someone who is taking it and is barely learning English.
[/quote]

The mean SAT score of kids graduating from Santa Ana high school in Orange County is something like a 900. Despite Hispanics composing the majority in California, they are severely underrepresented in the UC system.

I don’t care how the illegal immigrant parents do as long as their kids do better.

They’re not. That’s what Telles’ and Ortiz’ longitudinal study showed.

[quote]
Hispanic culture is not anti-intellectual, their public education system is just no good because they don’t have enough money. I live in Texas, by the way, so we have the exact same problem here as you do in California.[/quote]

This is the claim we hear all the time: if only there were more money to school them, they’d do better. There’s not a shred of evidence that this is true. Asian kids can be put in a school in the middle of the ghetto and they do well. Their parents make them do their homework and go to class.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I never took you as the person to engage in typical leftist ad hominems, either. We learn something new all the time.[/quote]

So desperate. There is, of course, nothing “leftist” about calling you these things, nor are they ad hominems. They are factual adjectives that insult you.

And they are true - witness your response to me. You launch into your pre-packaged tirade on illegal immigration regardless of what views I hold.

News flash, PRC - if you took time to do something other than engage in your tearful histrionics about the Mexaicans that are ruining your life (“I am a victim, dammit!”), you’d see that, generally, I don’t disagree with you on illegal immigration. I simply stated I won’t indulge the idea that they are categorically “bad people” or inferior in the “intellectual ability” department.

But don’t let that inconvenient fact interrupt your legendary whining.

They well have buried cognitive tendencies that are suppressed by an anti-intellectual culture. Who knows? The fact is that they haven’t proven themselves capable of performing academically in this state or any other.

And why would they if the culture they live in doesn’t support trying to “perform academically”? Until they collectively decide to try as hard as they can and come up short, you got nothing.

People like you perform this mental hand-waving and pretend that the achievement gap is somehow going to close (we haven’t succeeded in closing it with blacks in 70+ years of trying) or that it really isn’t there in the first place or is the fault of racism.

Homework assignment for you: show me where I took the position of any of the above. I never blamed lack of success on racism or denied an achievement gap exists.

This is called a straw man - projecting an opinion on me that I don’t have just so you can attack it. Again, you have your pre-packaged rant and no matter what anyone says or what position they hold, by God, you are going to stick to it and continue the tantrum.

I’ve simply dragged in sources inconvenient to the “religion of peace” mantra and presented them, to wit, Islamic source texts, jurisprudence, etc. I’ve presented data here about illegal immigration. Several people have disagreed with you besides myself. You think you have no burden of proof for any of your claims. Happy-talk suffices as proof for you. For us, we have data AND experience. YOu have neither.

Translation: PRC is either a rank hypocrite or knows he stepped in it and is trying to obfuscate his way out. You engage in the exact behavior you accuse me of, and then try to snivel your way out of it.

It wasn’t a matter of presenting “data” - it was a matter of telling Californians how California “really is” from my non-Californian “enclave”. Well, guess what chuckles, that is exactly what you do in every post you have about Islam.

Secondly, we see yet another straw man - “happy talk” doesn’t suffice for any point I’ve made, because I haven’t made a point that requires your panacea of “uh, data”. I haven’t needed to produce “counter-data” because I haven’t disputed any “data” you presented, dipshit.

You keep telling me how CA is negatively affected by illegal immigration, etc. - so what? I don’t disagree with you. I say I don’t disagree with that, you start foaming at the mouth about you have “data” backikng your point and I don’t have any. Just ignorant.

Really? So failure to understand loan documents or apathy about their meaning is not an “intellectual limitation” in your mind? What is?

You actually think home foreclosures are primarily a function of failing to understand the loan documents? This entire foreclosure crisis lies at the feet of the great amount of borrowers not being able to speak English?

This is what passes for economics in CA, aye? No wonder your state is in the trouble it’s in.

[quote]I hope you realize that the intellectual capital of the majority of new immigrants to California is exactly zero. That’s a huge part of California’s problem: a middle class was replaced demographically with a third-world welfare dependent peasant class with no intellectual abilities - at least none proven so far.

I never said whether this lack of ability is nature or nurture. In fact, I believe it to be mostly nurture, but how is that any better? How is it better that the offspring of illegal immigrants have low academic achievement due to poor parenting rather than just plain stupidity? Do you know how to fix that problem?[/quote]

When I read “ability”, I read it to mean “ability”, as in basic inherent potential. I disagreed that Hispanic immigrants had any inferior “ability”, i.e., their race had nothing to do with their lack of achievement or performance or assimilation.

Then you began menstruating about all things illegal immigration, relevant or not. Instead of clarifying and saying “well, I am not saying it’s all nature” in response to my statement, you started huffing and puffing about how I didn’t know noithing about CA and how Mexicans kicked your puppy and otherwise ruined your life. No, no - several hysetrical posts later, after arguing with, well, no one in particular on a host of issues, you finally get around to clarifying.

It may be that they will turn it around culturally in the future. I am not optimistic.

Awesome - imagine what would have happened if only you had read what I wrote and addressed it directly with this thought, which is relevant.

Illegal immigrant Mexicans are not a cohort of Sergey Brins - they are overwhelmingly gardeners, construction workers, and service industry workers. The are not providers of intellectual capital. They are uneducated. Why this is hard for you to admit I have no idea.

Straw man count in this post alone in up to three: I never refused to admit that illegal immigrants were not low-skill workers and are generally uneducated. I don’t disagree with this, and I never said otherwise.

I said CA has a strong base of intellectual capital and attracts people from all over - which is true. It attracts Indians, Asians, rich white kids from the East Coast, and foreign citizens.

When you make shit up, it makes you look like a fool. Once again, you are arguing against a point no one made.

I’ll clarify my position in no uncertain terms:

1. I think illegal immigration is and has been a problem, particularly in border states, and particularly in CA, whose generous welfare state exacerbates the problem

2. I don’t support amnesty; I support enforcement and higher penalties and deportation of offenders

3. I don’t think most immigrants are bad people, nor do I think they are inherently inferior. I simply think we have a higher priority in managing/controlling our immigration and national security. These folks aren’t bad people for doing everything they can for trying to get into the greatest nation in the world, and I would no more blame them for trying to get in - even illegally - than I would Russians desperately trying to escape to America from the USSR.

That said, I do have good news: based on our back-and-forth, I am prepared to dial back by appreication for the “intellectual capital” of CA. After having to endure your written trainwreck - logical fallacies (how many straw-men and irrelevant answers to questions never raised?), idiotic hyopcrisy (don’t lecture me about CA as a non-Californian but watch as I lecture everyone else about “the truth” about where they live) and general irrational hysetria (“you called me hypersensitive, you…you leftist!”)…

…I have concluded that, no, Californians aren’t so bright after all.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

What you are not understanding, is that these people have no understanding of structure within a society. Packing 50 people in a house, clown cars with 20 people in them, or bombarding our schools and hospitals with their kids, all the while there is no regard of their impact. Illegals driving with no insurance (one of whom I got hit by), makes car insurance insane here. Got any idea how many have Tuberculosis who come here, with no regard for those they come in contact with?. Do you have any idea the number of hospitals that closed in California from illegals? Between 1993 and 2003, 60 hospitals closed. Schools are overcrowded because of the kids of illegal aliens.

With all due respect Thunderbolt, if you were in California you might have a better idea. I would be willing to bet that there are more illegals in Los Angeles than in your entire state. I am not saying they are the only problem we have, but they are a significant reason why we are in a financial mess. [/quote]

You are suffering from the same fever that PRC is. I have never disagreed that illegals in CA - or anywhere else - aren’t a problem. Who are you arguing with?

I simply said that I won’t engage in demonizing them as inferior humans. They aren’t less smart or less capable than any other ethnicity. There are all kinds of reasons they lag in society, not the least of which is that (1) their cultures don’t press academic or professional achievement, and (2) they often do not want to assimilate into the larged culture they are entering.

Additionally, many are lazy and are gaming a very genrous system (not unlike African immigrants in France). That’s fine - pointing out these damning facts is not the same as treating them with the level of contempt you see the irrational PRC indulge in.

No offense, but read what I wrote and stop wasting my time by assigning viewpoints to me I don’t have.

[Bill_Roberts]

So exactly why did you disagree so vehemently with, and call racist, the statement “I hope you realize that the [contributed] intellectual capital of the majority of new immigrants to California is exactly zero.”

???

Uneducated persons working in service jobs and in agricultural and other manual labor are not contributing “intellectual capital” and the statement was only in reference to the majority, rather than claiming that not a single such immigrant contributed intellectual capital.

And in other posts PRC has made clear that he thinks the cause is nurture, not genetics.

So why did you play the “you’re a racist” card?

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

So exactly why did you disagree so vehemently with, and call racist, the statement “I hope you realize that the [contributed] intellectual capital of the majority of new immigrants to California is exactly zero.”

???[/quote]

I didn’t. Here is what was said:

PRCalDude wrote:

That’s a huge part of California’s problem: a middle class was replaced demographically with a third-world welfare dependent peasant class [u]with no intellectual abilities - at least none proven so far.[/u]

I replied, in a rather plain vanilla fashion:

[quote]Sorry, PRC - while I recognize the illegal immigrant problem and have my own soapbox about lack of assimilation and how we cannot permit the problem to continue, etc., I won’t join up on an “immigrants as subhuman parasites” theme.

This obsession linked a little too closely to race is, well, in a word, disgusting.[/quote]

The notion that Hispanics had “no intellectual abilities” was interpreted by me as meaning what it says: no intellectual abilities. I said I don’t share that view.

And in other posts PRC has made clear that he thinks the cause is nurture, not genetics.

I am not tracking his other posts - but after I made it clear I thought PRC meant “nature” and not “nurture”, it’s not as though he provided any immediate clarification to correct my misunderstanding.

So why did you play the “you’re a racist” card?

I didn’t - my point was I can’t even begin to entertain “nature” as any part of the equation and it sounded to me like PRC actually did entertain this idea and I thought that insinuation was “disgusting” (which I do). PRC’s response was not a “no, you have me wrong - I am not saying ‘nature’ or 'race; is the cause.” Instead, he vomited up every argument he has ever conceived of to damn Mexicans across the board, and only suggested that he thought “nurture” was a factor after the tirade.

Is PRC a “racist”? I simply have no idea. Perhaps instead of regurgutating his manifesto at every turn, he can sack up and say “yes, Hispanics are racially inferior” or “no, Hispanics are not racially inferior.” Because, you either believe this or you don’t, and you should have the balls to say so.

[Bill_Roberts]

His statement did not have it that no Hispanic had any intellectual abilities.

Reading his entire post and other posts makes clear that he means demographically and with reference to whether the actual work and ability to perform work is principally limited to manual labor or are jobs contributing intellectual capital.

As he stated, most jobs held by illegal aliens are not ones that a person describes as contributing “intellectual capital” to the economy nor are the persons able to hold such jobs, for reasons PRC attributed to nurture.

As I see it, you responded unnecessarily with the “that’s racist” card.

PRC’s statements about what has happened to California’s economy and the effect of illegal immigration on that economy have so far as I can tell been accurate. Your objections seem (I say seem: all I can do is read your words) to have been driven by political-correctness-indignation and a speediness to call people or statements racist if it so happens that there is a correlation with race, regardless that the causative factor may not be race and specifically is stated to not be attributed to genetics (that is to say, to race itself.)

As for your use of expressions such as stating that the person you are arguing with “vomited up” such-and-such statements, this just strikes me as being ad-hominem and I take it as further evidence of emotion-based reaction, rather than actually there being anything factually wrong that you are objecting to for factual reasons.

Just my take on it… each person can have his own, and perhaps you feel that your replies are strictly fact-based and fact-driven.

[PonceDeLeon]

What do you guys propose for the borders and the illegal immigrants already here?

If we deport them, they will immediately try to come back. What can we do about that?

What if we gave Mexico a negative incentive for allowing people to hop the border, say, we tell Mexico that for every X number of illegals crossing the border, we clamp down on Mexican goods (trade). Would that have an impact?

[3IdSpetsnaz]

They well have buried cognitive tendencies that are suppressed by an anti-intellectual culture. Who knows? The fact is that they haven’t proven themselves capable of performing academically in this state or any other.

FLO-RID-A (Where Latinos perform as well, or better than ‘Whites’) ~&~ PUERTO RICO (Where ALL the professionals are LATINOS)

Me and PR Cal have talked about illegal immigration before, he seemed agreeable before. However, in this thread is tirades are bordering on the neurotic if not psychotic.

Illegal immigrants are a major problem. However, as large of a problem that we haven’t addressed is… the people who hire them.

We all bitch and moan about these ‘illegal immigrants,’ but they would not come here, if there were not ‘illegal employers.’ Yet these individuals are never mentioned in these arguments.

California is a jumble fuck anyway you want to cut it, and it’s not just the illegals to blame. We’ve all seen the riots of the white and asian UCLA students screaming psychotically about entitlement, when there is plain out just -no money- to be had.

Your problem is, your political environment and welfare state. Nothing more, and nothing less. The people who live in your state that vote for all the give aways, when there is no money to back it up.

To comment on ‘Latino’ under achievement, 90% of the people who are under achieving, are not even Latino. They are some meztizo serfs who have a 400 years of low ass labor culture, that they’ve brought with them wherever they go. Any real Latinos, in California, ie people of largely Southern European genetic and cultural extraction, can be seen in professions. Ie someone like Maximus B or myself, people who are actually descending from Latins.

I mean, was Ceaser a fucking Aztec?

This is like relating black under achievement to English underachievement, because they both have English last names.

That’s my two cents. The way to fix California, is just let it collapse.

[Bill_Roberts]

If American citizens and corporations were penalized for the crime, which it is, of employing them, then there would be self-deportation.

I’d suggest a sliding scale, advancing in severity as time goes on.

Secondly, if the government adopted a policy of “You want benefits? You want medical treatment beyond that needed, if it is, to survive the bus trip to the border? Get that from your home country,” and provided the bus trips and stopped the benefits, there would be further self-deportation.

California obviously can’t afford paying billions in benefits to and for illegal aliens. Regardless of liberal utopian dreams and insistence that that is the way it should be.

[Nominal_Prospect]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
News flash, PRC - if you took time to do something other than engage in your tearful histrionics about the Mexaicans that are ruining your life (“I am a victim, dammit!”), you’d see that, generally, I don’t disagree with you on illegal immigration. I simply stated I won’t indulge the idea that they are categorically “bad people” or inferior in the “intellectual ability” department.[/quote]

Because, at the end of the day, and where it really counts, you’ve imbibed the PC koolaid. You stand with the leftists on the issues that really matter.

For instance, you spew the whole “nature vs nurture” false dichotomy which liberals are so keen on. You’re less concerned with identifying the problem and fixing it than trying to “justify” it with sociological explanations. Typical left wing mindset.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I never took you as the person to engage in typical leftist ad hominems, either. We learn something new all the time.[/quote]

Indeed, he’s showing his true colors. You always have to be careful of these types who claim to be “conservative anti-racists” or “anti-fascists”. They are natural bed fellows of the left. They are nominally conservative on some issues but they line right up with the PC brigades on the things that really matter.

Any self-proclaimed “conservative” who is more concerned about appearing “anti-fascist” or “anti-racist” than he is about being conservative is just a closet liberal waiting for his opportunity to jump ship. The left always screams fascism whenever real conservative or even libertarian proposals are aired.

Politically correct neocons like thunderbolt are the “useful idiots” of today’s right.

[PB_Crawl]

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
News flash, PRC - if you took time to do something other than engage in your tearful histrionics about the Mexaicans that are ruining your life (“I am a victim, dammit!”), you’d see that, generally, I don’t disagree with you on illegal immigration. I simply stated I won’t indulge the idea that they are categorically “bad people” or inferior in the “intellectual ability” department.

Because, at the end of the day, and where it really counts, you’ve imbibed the PC koolaid. You stand with the leftists on the issues that really matter.

For instance, you spew the whole “nature vs nurture” false dichotomy which liberals are so keen on. You’re less concerned with identifying the problem and fixing it than trying to “justify” it with sociological explanations. Typical left wing mindset.

PRCalDude wrote:
I never took you as the person to engage in typical leftist ad hominems, either. We learn something new all the time.

Indeed, he’s showing his true colors. You always have to be careful of these types who claim to be “conservative anti-racists” or “anti-fascists”. They are natural bed fellows of the left. They are nominally conservative on some issues but they line right up with the PC brigades on the things that really matter.

Any self-proclaimed “conservative” who is more concerned about appearing “anti-fascist” or “anti-racist” than he is about being conservative is just a closet liberal waiting for his opportunity to jump ship. The left always screams fascism whenever real conservative or even libertarian proposals are aired.

Politically correct neocons like thunderbolt are the “useful idiots” of today’s right.[/quote]

You talk funny. Are you some kind of foreigner?

[MaximusB]

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
If American citizens and corporations were penalized for the crime, which it is, of employing them, then there would be self-deportation.

I’d suggest a sliding scale, advancing in severity as time goes on.

Secondly, if the government adopted a policy of “You want benefits? You want medical treatment beyond that needed, if it is, to survive the bus trip to the border? Get them from your home country,” and provided the bus trips and stopped the benefits, there would be further self-deportation.

California obviously can’t afford paying billions in benefits to and for illegal aliens. Regardless of liberal utopian dreams that that is the way it should be.[/quote]

This is what I mean, give them NO incentive to be here. No jobs, no housing, no education, they will leave. There are illegal aliens living in canyons near the San Diego border, who are camping out there, and also soliciting girls (minors) for sex. Residents living in the area have called police, and they were outspoken that they would not do anything about it. I am waiting for a huge fire to break out, from their camp fires, destroying thousands of acres and hundreds of homes.

[MaximusB]

[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
They well have buried cognitive tendencies that are suppressed by an anti-intellectual culture. Who knows? The fact is that they haven’t proven themselves capable of performing academically in this state or any other.
FLO-RID-A (Where Latinos perform as well, or better than ‘Whites’) ~&~ PUERTO RICO (Where ALL the professionals are LATINOS)

Me and PR Cal have talked about illegal immigration before, he seemed agreeable before. However, in this thread is tirades are bordering on the neurotic if not psychotic.

Illegal immigrants are a major problem. However, as large of a problem that we haven’t addressed is… the people who hire them.

We all bitch and moan about these ‘illegal immigrants,’ but they would not come here, if there were not ‘illegal employers.’ Yet these individuals are never mentioned in these arguments.

California is a jumble fuck anyway you want to cut it, and it’s not just the illegals to blame. We’ve all seen the riots of the white and asian UCLA students screaming psychotically about entitlement, when there is plain out just -no money- to be had.

Your problem is, your political environment and welfare state. Nothing more, and nothing less. The people who live in your state that vote for all the give aways, when there is no money to back it up.

To comment on ‘Latino’ under achievement, 90% of the people who are under achieving, are not even Latino. They are some meztizo serfs who have a 400 years of low ass labor culture, that they’ve brought with them wherever they go. Any real Latinos, in California, ie people of largely Southern European genetic and cultural extraction, can be seen in professions. Ie someone like Maximus B or myself, people who are actually descending from Latins.

I mean, was Ceaser a fucking Aztec?

This is like relating black under achievement to English underachievement, because they both have English last names.

That’s my two cents. The way to fix California, is just let it collapse.

[/quote]

Many of the “Latino” community here don’t even associate with their European side. They actually despise it, saying that Europeans raped themselves into their blood. They associate themselves as Native American Indians, who want their land back. Their claims of having better inventions, technology, medicine, education, you name it, who were superior before the European invaders arrived.

[thunderbolt23]

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

His statement did not have it that no Hispanic had any intellectual abilities.[/quote]

…despite the fact that he said that they had no intellectual abilities. If I was wrong, no problem - I was happy for PRC to clarify. I simply said “sorry, I can’t get on board with such a view” and that I thought the insinuation as pretty unseemly. No more, no less.

[quote]Reading his entire post and other posts makes clear that he means demographically and with reference to whether the actual work and ability to perform work is principally limited to manual labor or are jobs contributing intellectual capital.

As he stated, most jobs held by illegal aliens are not ones that a person describes as contributing “intellectual capital” to the economy nor are the persons able to hold such jobs, for reasons PRC attributed to nurture.[/quote]

I have no problem with this, but that isn’t where PRC seemred to stop - he insinuated that Mexicans couldn’t contribute “intellectual capital” even if they wanted to, hence the “they have no ability” remark. That is what I responded to.

As I see it, you responded unnecessarily with the “that’s racist” card.

I said I wasn’t on board with that line of thinking, if that is what he meant. If he wanted to correct my misunderstanding, he had ample opportunity to.

PRC’s statements about what has happened to California’s economy and the effect of illegal immigration on that economy have so far as I can tell been accurate.

Super-fantastic - I have never disputed a single point about the deleterious effects of illegal immigrants on CA and I have always agreed with this argument. Why is there such confusion on this issue? I never argued otherwise.

Your objections seem (I say seem: all I can do is read your words) to have been driven by political-correctness-indignation and a speediness to call people or statements racist if it so happens that there is a correlation with race, regardless that the causative factor may not be race and specifically is stated to not be attributed to genetics (that is to say, to race itself.)

Completely false. I have no “political correctness” standard to satisfy - I never once dismissed the correlation with race; I noted that the problem, in my view, was caused bycultural factors and not racial factors.

That isn’t “political correctness” - it is conclusion based on facts.

As for your use of expressions such as stating that the person you are arguing with “vomited up” such-and-such statements, this just strikes me as being ad-hominem and I take it as further evidence of emotion-based reaction, rather than actually there being anything factually wrong that you are objecting to for factual reasons.

Well, it’s not ad hominem - and there seems to be great confusion as to what that term means, but I digress - and I frankly am not terribly concerned. I don’t suffer fools gladly, and if my added “color” offends you, so be it. My patience wears thin quickly with the nonsense PRC was attempting to pass off.

The irony, of course, is that I initially began my discussion in this thread dealing with nothing but the issues, and as is well-documented, PRC began responding to me with lengthy emotional tirades arguing against straw men of his own creation. You worried about “emotion-based reaction”? Take it up with PRC, who couldn’t - because of his emotional over-investment of topic - even see that I wasn’t disagreeing with him on illegal immigration generally.

Just my take on it… each person can have his own, and perhaps you feel that your replies are strictly fact-based and fact-driven.

PRC and I agree on a number of issues, illegal immigration being one. I raise a point about CA, and PRC begins his pre-packaged diatribe on illegal immigration, paying no attention to anything I have said.

If he could step back, take a breath, and simply read what I wrote, there is little to get riled up over - we agree on policy generally, and if he doesn’t think Hispanics are racially inferior as his comment insinuated, no problem, he could have clarified my mistake at any point.

Instead, he chose a different path, misrepresented my opinions, and what I have poured out against him, he asked for.