Bulking by T-Nation Standards

Nutrition
41

[quote]dgallagher88 wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
40 40 20 is pretty good IMHO man. just make sure that you get most of your daily carbs around your workout. Say you need 200g of carbs per day.

PREWORKOUT(breakfast) 50g
PERI 50g
Post(within 3 hrs of end of workout) 50g

and spread the last 50g evenly throughout the rest of the day via veggies and protein powders or meal replacements.[/quote]

So are you saying macro nutrient splits are irrelevant and total carb intake in timing is what matters. I’m bulking on about 2800 calories at about 265g of carbs/protein each and 75g fat. Would cutting carbs in half to near 100g and upping my fat to around 130g result in leaner gains?

As for the 5 day split I’m looking for something without a day just for arms. I’ve been on the typical back/bi, chest/tri, legs/calves, shoulders/traps, arms split for about 10 weeks and want to change things up[/quote]

That split is fine too, just as long as you dont work out 2 big body parts in a day. Big + Small.

As for the macro breakdown, theres a lot of things that work for dif. people, like people who have high digestion rates/high metabolisms can ingest an assload more carbs than me without consequence. I cannot, so 40 40 20 works for me. theres some stipulation in the Bodybuilding world i will advise you of below:

  1. 20% of your cals from fat is optimum. Fat is needed for good Test production, joint health, ligaments, and nervous system recovery. But do not translate “fat is good” with “LOTS of fat is good.”

  2. A lot of people think that you should divide your daily carbs up equally through multiple meals throughout the day. Wrong. You need to take advantage of nutrient timing. by having fast carbs about 30 - 45 mins before your workout, insulin goes up. GOOD. By having carbs during your workout, you are actively replenishing nutrients to your body when they need them the most. BETTER. When you finish your workout, your blood sugar is low, and your body uses up glycogen stores, basically becoming like a “dried out sponge” that needs you to sop up more nutrients to be useful again and to recover. BEST. Best to get in those carbs within 3 hours of your workout’s end.

  3. Having complex carbs(Green Veg) throughout 2 - 3 meals throughout the rest of your day will keep you relatively lean and give your body the carbs that it needs SLOWLY. It takes your body more calories to process the veg than they are actually worth:

    A.(Example) 1 cup Veg = 50 cals, your body burns 70 calories in order to process the veg due to all the complex fiber. this results in -20 calories. This is why a lot of BB’ers add more veg when cutting calories. VEG = NEGATIVE CALORIES!

Also, by having a decent amount of fiber, you ensure maximum absorbtion of nutrients in your intestines because it “cleans out” anything that isnt supposed to be there.

42

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:

[quote]dgallagher88 wrote:

[quote]Sarev0k wrote:
40 40 20 is pretty good IMHO man. just make sure that you get most of your daily carbs around your workout. Say you need 200g of carbs per day.

PREWORKOUT(breakfast) 50g
PERI 50g
Post(within 3 hrs of end of workout) 50g

and spread the last 50g evenly throughout the rest of the day via veggies and protein powders or meal replacements.[/quote]

So are you saying macro nutrient splits are irrelevant and total carb intake in timing is what matters. I’m bulking on about 2800 calories at about 265g of carbs/protein each and 75g fat. Would cutting carbs in half to near 100g and upping my fat to around 130g result in leaner gains?

As for the 5 day split I’m looking for something without a day just for arms. I’ve been on the typical back/bi, chest/tri, legs/calves, shoulders/traps, arms split for about 10 weeks and want to change things up[/quote]

That split is fine too, just as long as you dont work out 2 big body parts in a day. Big + Small.

As for the macro breakdown, theres a lot of things that work for dif. people, like people who have high digestion rates/high metabolisms can ingest an assload more carbs than me without consequence. I cannot, so 40 40 20 works for me. theres some stipulation in the Bodybuilding world i will advise you of below:

  1. 20% of your cals from fat is optimum. Fat is needed for good Test production, joint health, ligaments, and nervous system recovery. But do not translate “fat is good” with “LOTS of fat is good.”

  2. A lot of people think that you should divide your daily carbs up equally through multiple meals throughout the day. Wrong. You need to take advantage of nutrient timing. by having fast carbs about 30 - 45 mins before your workout, insulin goes up. GOOD. By having carbs during your workout, you are actively replenishing nutrients to your body when they need them the most. BETTER. When you finish your workout, your blood sugar is low, and your body uses up glycogen stores, basically becoming like a “dried out sponge” that needs you to sop up more nutrients to be useful again and to recover. BEST. Best to get in those carbs within 3 hours of your workout’s end.

  3. Having complex carbs(Green Veg) throughout 2 - 3 meals throughout the rest of your day will keep you relatively lean and give your body the carbs that it needs SLOWLY. It takes your body more calories to process the veg than they are actually worth:

    A.(Example) 1 cup Veg = 50 cals, your body burns 70 calories in order to process the veg due to all the complex fiber. this results in -20 calories. This is why a lot of BB’ers add more veg when cutting calories. VEG = NEGATIVE CALORIES!

Also, by having a decent amount of fiber, you ensure maximum absorbtion of nutrients in your intestines because it “cleans out” anything that isnt supposed to be there.

[/quote]

Thanks for the info, very helpful! I think I’ll probably try something along the lines of 1/2 cup proats with some berries right before workouts and 2 cups skim milk, 2 scoops whey, and half a banana post. Other carbs would be broccoli, spinach, avocado, nuts, cheese, and from powders (a TKD approach). I’m hoping to see how my body will react if I entered ketosis, but still not sure about it since the true keto approach is only 5% carbs and around 60% fat. I don’t know if this is optimal for someone in a bulk doing routine heavy lifting.

43

Just keep in mind, unless you are an assisted lifter or have genetics for extreme leanness, these extended “dirty” bulks where people are getting up to 20%+ BF are a waste of time. They should call it “How To Spin Your Wheels 101”.

44

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Just keep in mind, unless you are an assisted lifter or have genetics for extreme leanness, these extended “dirty” bulks where people are getting up to 20%+ BF are a waste of time. They should call it “How To Spin Your Wheels 101”.[/quote]

I wasn’t planning on doing a “dirty” bulk. I’m probably about 13% BF now and am only eating 200-300 surplus every day of quality foods. I was just concerned about the macro source of these foods. I’m thinking my body will respond better to more fats as opposed to more carbs. I’m going to try replacing a lot of oatmeal, dairy, and fruit with nuts, oils, avocado and more veggies. Most of the successful diets I’ve seen on these forums are centered around quality protein/fats and properly timed carbs (other than veggies which are good whenever).

45

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Just keep in mind, unless you are an assisted lifter or have genetics for extreme leanness, these extended “dirty” bulks where people are getting up to 20%+ BF are a waste of time. They should call it “How To Spin Your Wheels 101”.[/quote]

x 2.

This is spot on. Few have the genetics to carry on a dirty bulk for an extended period of time, assisted or not, and make real progress. You will reach a certain point where the muscle gains will not outweigh the fat gains, and you will be, as way put it, “spinning your wheels.” I say stick with clean foods and just eat a ton of them. You’re a bodybuilder, that means you are looking to build your body and ultimately crappy food is suboptimal when compared to whole clean foods.

46

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Just keep in mind, unless you are an assisted lifter or have genetics for extreme leanness, these extended “dirty” bulks where people are getting up to 20%+ BF are a waste of time. They should call it “How To Spin Your Wheels 101”.[/quote]

x 2.

This is spot on. Few have the genetics to carry on a dirty bulk for an extended period of time, assisted or not, and make real progress. You will reach a certain point where the muscle gains will not outweigh the fat gains, and you will be, as way put it, “spinning your wheels.” I say stick with clean foods and just eat a ton of them. You’re a bodybuilder, that means you are looking to build your body and ultimately crappy food is suboptimal when compared to whole clean foods. [/quote]

x3 badda bing, wish I knew this earlier in my training career myself so I didn’t waste some of my time from shitty diet habits. You live and you learn though and my mistakes are the reason for the majority of the knowledge I have today.

47

[quote]ebomb5522 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Just keep in mind, unless you are an assisted lifter or have genetics for extreme leanness, these extended “dirty” bulks where people are getting up to 20%+ BF are a waste of time. They should call it “How To Spin Your Wheels 101”.[/quote]

x 2.

This is spot on. Few have the genetics to carry on a dirty bulk for an extended period of time, assisted or not, and make real progress. You will reach a certain point where the muscle gains will not outweigh the fat gains, and you will be, as way put it, “spinning your wheels.” I say stick with clean foods and just eat a ton of them. You’re a bodybuilder, that means you are looking to build your body and ultimately crappy food is suboptimal when compared to whole clean foods. [/quote]

I have never in my life used “dirty bulk” to describe any of my eating habits. My goal was to get in enough CALORIES to grow, not to sit around trying to figure out which box to label my activities as. It took more calories than average for me to gain weight especially in those initial years and since making progress relies heavily on your individual personal resources (financially and temporal), I ate what was available.

Some of you seem to spend more time with labels than basic understanding. Not anyone here that I’ve seen has recommended someone do a “dirty bulk” unless they had very little credibility on this site. The GOAL has been for people to stop thinking in these terms altogether.

Your goal is to grow muscle optimally with any fat gain limited to that necessary to reach the first goal. It is NOT to eat “cleaner” than everyone else, especially since that word means NOTHING in itself.

48

Damn Way! How are you dissing bulking. You were pounding down pizzas and gallons of milk for dinner a few months ago. Cutting’s got you crazy !!!

49

What’s your daily diet look like waylander. My bulking plan consists of ~ 2700cals (260pr, 125f, 130c-45fiber) mainly eggs, chicken, lean beef, whey, nuts, oils, avocado, ton of veggies, whey/casein, and dextrose pre/post.

Are you against bulking in general or just people who “dirty” bulk to gain weight fast?

50

[quote]Elite0423 wrote:
Damn Way! How are you dissing bulking. You were pounding down pizzas and gallons of milk for dinner a few months ago. Cutting’s got you crazy !!![/quote]

hahaha, consider it because I’ve been there done that and I’ll never do it again. I’m back up to about 270 now and have done it with all clean sources, with a few Wendy’s double stackers here and there, and my progress has been much better all while staying super duper sexy!

51

[quote]dgallagher88 wrote:
What’s your daily diet look like waylander. My bulking plan consists of ~ 2700cals (260pr, 125f, 130c-45fiber) mainly eggs, chicken, lean beef, whey, nuts, oils, avocado, ton of veggies, whey/casein, and dextrose pre/post.

Are you against bulking in general or just people who “dirty” bulk to gain weight fast?[/quote]

I’m against people eating enormous amounts of calories without having any idea of how much they actually need or being aware of diminishing returns. This site is filled with bulk fails. A huge percentage of people eat a fuck of of food, get bigger, look like shit and their logic is to get even bigger and then they won’t look as fat except it never works out that way.

All this does is churn out a bunch of unhappy people because they want to look like a bodybuilder but never will because they are stuck in this “bulk” mindset. Unless you are someone who is already in good shape and pushing 250+ pounds there is absolutely no reason you need to eat anything other than “clean” foods to gain weight. To say otherwise is just being lazy and guess what, $20 says the people who want to argue with me about that look like dirty asshole, sorry.

As I said earlier, I’m almost 270 lbs. I have maybe 2-3 wendy’s double stackers a week, the rest comes from eggs, egg whites, 93% lean ground beef, oatmeal, sweet potatoes, avocado’s, protein powder, etc etc. I can gain weight just fine and I still stay in good shape for “off season”.

52

[quote]Elite0423 wrote:
Damn Way! How are you dissing bulking. You were pounding down pizzas and gallons of milk for dinner a few months ago. Cutting’s got you crazy !!![/quote]

Just so you know, a lot of guys who bulk up diet down and then seem to act the same way…while ignoring that everything they did up to that point is why they look the way they do.

Unless you are one of those who gains weight very easily, you will likely have to force your body to accept body weights far above where the person started or would be naturally with no weight training or increased food intake.

The chances of someone with a slender build going from 140-150lbs to well over 230lbs relatively lean while “slowly” gaining weight are pretty slim…at least without most people using anabolics during the way.

53

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have never in my life used “dirty bulk” to describe any of my eating habits. My goal was to get in enough CALORIES to grow, not to sit around trying to figure out which box to label my activities as. It took more calories than average for me to gain weight especially in those initial years and since making progress relies heavily on your individual personal resources (financially and temporal), I ate what was available.

Some of you seem to spend more time with labels than basic understanding. Not anyone here that I’ve seen has recommended someone do a “dirty bulk” unless they had very little credibility on this site. The GOAL has been for people to stop thinking in these terms altogether.

Your goal is to grow muscle optimally with any fat gain limited to that necessary to reach the first goal. It is NOT to eat “cleaner” than everyone else, especially since that word means NOTHING in itself.[/quote]

Look around X, all anyone says is to dirty bulk lol. You wonder why there’s maybe 10-15 people on here who look like they could compete.

^^there’s the reason.

54

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Elite0423 wrote:
Damn Way! How are you dissing bulking. You were pounding down pizzas and gallons of milk for dinner a few months ago. Cutting’s got you crazy !!![/quote]

Just so you know, a lot of guys who bulk up diet down and then seem to act the same way…while ignoring that everything they did up to that point is why they look the way they do.
[/quote]

Notice the clarifications I made in my “spinning the wheels” post about what types of people can get away with what I did. I certainly don’t have average genetics nor am I a natural trainee at this point.

And I will never suggest what I did to anyone who doesn’t fall into one or both of those categories.

55

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have never in my life used “dirty bulk” to describe any of my eating habits. My goal was to get in enough CALORIES to grow, not to sit around trying to figure out which box to label my activities as. It took more calories than average for me to gain weight especially in those initial years and since making progress relies heavily on your individual personal resources (financially and temporal), I ate what was available.

Some of you seem to spend more time with labels than basic understanding. Not anyone here that I’ve seen has recommended someone do a “dirty bulk” unless they had very little credibility on this site. The GOAL has been for people to stop thinking in these terms altogether.

Your goal is to grow muscle optimally with any fat gain limited to that necessary to reach the first goal. It is NOT to eat “cleaner” than everyone else, especially since that word means NOTHING in itself.[/quote]

Look around X, all anyone says is to dirty bulk lol. You wonder why there’s maybe 10-15 people on here who look like they could compete.

^^there’s the reason.[/quote]

?

And all I’ve been saying for ten years is to not think in those terms.

Does it really matter what people recommend when they barely look like they lift? You blame the person listening to someone like that at some point.

How often do I have to write that most of these labels “like FFB, ectomorph and others” do nothing but hold people back?

If that hamburger means that 16 year old kid playing two sports in school and running everyday can finally reach his goal, why would he care how “dirty vs clean” it is?

Most of the people here bragging about how clean they eat are at the opposite end making ZERO progress.

56

I actually think the “dirty bulk” we’re talking about should be renamed a lazy bulk. If you’re getting 5000 calories a day from eating ice cream and vegetable oil, you’re being lazy.

57

And I have nothing against people eating hamburgers lol, as long as that only constitutes a small % of their intake.

58

[quote]Jason van Wyk wrote:
I actually think the “dirty bulk” we’re talking about should be renamed a lazy bulk. If you’re getting 5000 calories a day from eating ice cream and vegetable oil, you’re being lazy.

[/quote]

Seriously though, who is recommending this?

If the answer is “no one” then why are we discussing it?

59

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
And I have nothing against people eating hamburgers lol, as long as that only constitutes a small % of their intake.

[/quote]

Then you would still be wrong because the whole goal is to MAKE PROGRESS, so they should base their actions on their progress. The “percentage of intake” should be again based on their physical progress, not some preconceived limit based on nothing but an assumption.

If there is some guy out there gaining muscle and keeping fat in check while “eating wrong” then he isn’t eating “wrong” at all.

60

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
And I have nothing against people eating hamburgers lol, as long as that only constitutes a small % of their intake.

[/quote]

Then you would still be wrong because the whole goal is to MAKE PROGRESS, so they should base their actions on their progress. The “percentage of intake” should be again based on their physical progress, not some preconceived limit based on nothing but an assumption.

If there is some guy out there gaining muscle and keeping fat in check while “eating wrong” then he isn’t eating “wrong” at all.[/quote]

Show me these people. I know one person who can eat nearly whatever he wants, stay single digit bf and still gain muscle.

You act like b/c I ate pizza and drank a half gallon of whole milk before bed every night for 4 months that it’s the reason I look the way you do.

You also seem to think that because you ate whatever you could in college and got really heavy that it’s the reason you look like you do now, while completely disregarding the next 8-10 years of having several steaks every day.

Please post a shirtless pic of you in college so we can see how jacked you were. I feel like your purposefully act naive sometimes because you are so desperate to be right.