BTS: Tim Patterson Speaks

Nutrition
81

The stevia is not likely to happen anytime soon as the FDA has not approved it as a sweetener. Untill then I don’t think that Biotest or anyone else can use it for that purpose. At least here in the U.S.

Also keep in mind that the negative aspects of sucralose require an ingestion of several pounds a day, every day, over a very long period of time. Alarmists like Mercola like to leave that out. While smaller amounts may have a cumlative effect, they would take even longer to manifest.

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
Man, I have been begging for you all to produce a quality multi. Make it from all natural sources and the most bioavailable and I would buy it religiously. To be honest, I haven’t purchased too many of your products, but it’s for one reason alone…sucralose.

If you all offered your products naturally sweetened with stevia or the likes, I wouldn’t have to settle for inferior sources or pay out the ass. I know it’s a supply and demand thing and I probably am a minority when it comes to this, but I know there has got to be a few T-Men out there that want all natural, quality products. Help me to help you. You supply, I buy. Thanks.

AF Sergeant[/quote]

82

[quote]Madman2 wrote:
The stevia is not likely to happen anytime soon as the FDA has not approved it as a sweetener. Untill then I don’t think that Biotest or anyone else can use it for that purpose. At least here in the U.S.

Also keep in mind that the negative aspects of sucralose require an ingestion of several pounds a day, every day, over a very long period of time. Alarmists like Mercola like to leave that out. While smaller amounts may have a cumlative effect, they would take even longer to manifest.

[/quote]

Stevia is not approved by the FDA for use in food. However, it is used in supplements. There are already numerous protein powders available with stevia, but I would rather buy one from Biotest.

As for sucralose, I am not convinced. Mercola may be an alarmist but some of his warnings are true. I have read plenty on effects that sucralose has had on people and have witnessed it personally. The effects on most people may be neglible but I choose to avoid artificial sweeteners/additives in general. At best they are harmless ingredients that add nothing to the nutritive value of food, used to enhance flavor. At worst, they are toxic with a range of short and long term side effects that compromise health and longevity.

There’s something odd about someone who will take painstaking steps to produce his best body yet will blindly ingest substances that could eventually kill him. Trust me, I am no purist and I eat my share of junk, but I don’t understand your logic. Admitting that something may have a cumulative effect yet continuing to use that product doesn’t sound right. You are basically saying, “I want to look good now; I don’t care what it costs me later.”

AF Sergeant

83

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
You are basically saying, “I want to look good now; I don’t care what it costs me later.”

AF Sergeant
[/quote]

No, I believe he’s saying that Sucralose isn’t harmful in the quantities consumed by humans.

Please show evidance of one harmful effect from consuming Sucralose.

I and many of the people around me have been using Sucralose since it came to the market and I have not seen any deleterious results whatsoever.

Many of substance are potentially harmful in quantities well beyond that ever consumed by humans, but are perfectly safe otherwise. In my experience, and based on all credible research that I’ve seen, this is the case with Sucralose.

84

[quote]ChrisKing wrote:

No, I believe he’s saying that Sucralose isn’t harmful in the quantities consumed by humans.

[/quote]

Yup, that’s what I’m saying. I should have said “could” instead of may. Sorry for the confusion there.

I can’t say that I’ve seen all the research on Sucralose, but what I have seen is like I stated. I do believe that Mercola is a bit of an alarmist, but he does get me to think about stuff that I might not give a second thought to.

I go and research the subject on my own and make up my own mind. It certainly appears that you do as well.

85

[quote]Madman2 wrote:
ChrisKing wrote:

No, I believe he’s saying that Sucralose isn’t harmful in the quantities consumed by humans.

Yup, that’s what I’m saying. I should have said “could” instead of may. Sorry for the confusion there.

I can’t say that I’ve seen all the research on Sucralose, but what I have seen is like I stated. I do believe that Mercola is a bit of an alarmist, but he does get me to think about stuff that I might not give a second thought to.

I go and research the subject on my own and make up my own mind. It certainly appears that you do as well.

[/quote]
I understood what he was saying. What I am saying is that given a choice, I prefer to avoid a substance that could or may have side effects, especially when there is an all natural alternative.

Your “provide a study” argument is predictable. Suffice it to say that I have read plenty for and against sucralose. I am no expert and I don’t have the answers, but I do have doubts; enough so that I am reluctant to consume sucralose. There are many substances that appear to have no immediate side effects but have a cumulative or mutagenic effect. Everyone is different and everyone has a different threshold that triggers disease. I try to eliminate variables.

Bottom line is sucralose is an unknown allegedly supported by research. It is easy to bias data or skew numbers to support or argue against anything. Research and statistics are constantly manipulated by interested parties to prove their cause. Without shouting “conspiracy theory”, all I can do is make an educated guess. My guess is the stuff is bad for you and I will avoid it if I can. Make your choice. I didn’t intend to argue about sucralose. I merely expressed a desire to have a product that caters to people with my concerns.

AF Sergeant

86

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:

Your “provide a study” argument is predictable.

AF Sergeant
[/quote]

Uh, where do you get that? I don’t believe one way or the other untill I have enough information to make up my own mind. Is that now considered “provide a study”? Should I pick a “Guru” and follow him/her blindly?

87

[quote]Madman2 wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:

Your “provide a study” argument is predictable.

AF Sergeant

Uh, where do you get that? I don’t believe one way or the other untill I have enough information to make up my own mind. Is that now considered “provide a study”? Should I pick a “Guru” and follow him/her blindly?[/quote]

I was referring to ChrisKing’s statement, “Please show evidance of one harmful effect from consuming Sucralose.” By the way, nice job with the spelling of evidence. Anyway, my previous response addressed comments made by both of you.

If you want to be extreme and idiotic, you could follow a guru blindly. All I am saying is that what appears to be irrefutable evidence/research that supports an argument, very well could be skewed/bias information geared to promote a cause. I have done as you claimed to have done; I read the pros and cons and came to an “educated” assumption/conclusion. You concluded that sucralose isn’t that much of a gamble for you, and that’s fine. I choose to eliminate it from my diet as much as possible.

88

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
Madman2 wrote:

I was referring to ChrisKing’s statement, “Please show evidance of one harmful effect from consuming Sucralose.” By the way, nice job with the spelling of evidence. Anyway, my previous response addressed comments made by both of you.

If you want to be extreme and idiotic, you could follow a guru blindly. All I am saying is that what appears to be irrefutable evidence/research that supports an argument, very well could be skewed/bias information geared to promote a cause. I have done as you claimed to have done; I read the pros and cons and came to an “educated” assumption/conclusion. You concluded that sucralose isn’t that much of a gamble for you, and that’s fine. I choose to eliminate it from my diet as much as possible.
[/quote]

Sorry about that. I didn’t realize that you were addressing Mr. King as well.

89

BUMP for CANADA . .
Is there a # to call to place our order via USPS so we do not default to $100 in FedEx :wink:

Thanks very much- ready to support your cause Tim . .just need a hand here :slight_smile:
All the best

90

All natural is more safe?

91

[quote]jdepron wrote:
All natural is more safe?[/quote]

That’s a loaded question, and I will not fall for the bait. You missed the point. I did not post my original message to convince anyone that one product is safer than another. I have my preference.

I was asking Biotest, not you, to produce a product to meet my needs. I am a potential customer that asked for a particular product. If Biotest thinks the demand is great enough to warrant the expense of production, they will make what I asked for. If not, I have to make a personal choice as to what I will supplement with.

You worry about you and your choices, I’ll take care of me and mine. However, I think if Biotest offered a dick flavored supplement, you would be all over it and buy it by the bundle. Enough said!?

92

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
I have read plenty on effects that sucralose has had on people and have witnessed it personally.

AF Sergeant
[/quote]

I was going to ask what you have seen in regards to side effects in people due to Splenda intake? I use Splenda and stevia, so I just wanted to be careful. I was under the impression splenda was one of the better sweetners.

93

[quote]USAFMTI wrote:
Madman2 wrote:
The stevia is not likely to happen anytime soon as the FDA has not approved it as a sweetener. Untill then I don’t think that Biotest or anyone else can use it for that purpose. At least here in the U.S.

Also keep in mind that the negative aspects of sucralose require an ingestion of several pounds a day, every day, over a very long period of time. Alarmists like Mercola like to leave that out. While smaller amounts may have a cumlative effect, they would take even longer to manifest.

Stevia is not approved by the FDA for use in food. However, it is used in supplements. There are already numerous protein powders available with stevia, but I would rather buy one from Biotest.

As for sucralose, I am not convinced. Mercola may be an alarmist but some of his warnings are true. I have read plenty on effects that sucralose has had on people and have witnessed it personally. The effects on most people may be neglible but I choose to avoid artificial sweeteners/additives in general. At best they are harmless ingredients that add nothing to the nutritive value of food, used to enhance flavor. At worst, they are toxic with a range of short and long term side effects that compromise health and longevity.

There’s something odd about someone who will take painstaking steps to produce his best body yet will blindly ingest substances that could eventually kill him. Trust me, I am no purist and I eat my share of junk, but I don’t understand your logic. Admitting that something may have a cumulative effect yet continuing to use that product doesn’t sound right. You are basically saying, “I want to look good now; I don’t care what it costs me later.”

AF Sergeant
[/quote]

I agree whole-heartedly with AF Sergeant.

The problem is that I don’t know of any other quality supplement (protein-wise) that I can buy for near the same price. Almost every single protein powder has either aspartame or sucrolose. Sucrolose is BY FAR better health-wise than aspartame - can’t even question that.

But, I can only find 2 pounds of whey (which is only for around workout time at that) without any artificial sweeteners for no less than 40 bucks for 2 pounds, BEFORE shipping! I don’t mind making an investment in my my supplements (and health) as I do all the time, but I cannot justify 100+ bucks per month on just protein powders!

As far as the side-effects of sucrolose, there are many documented adverse side-effects. Period, regardless if you like Mercola. BTW, I would bet high dollar that Mercola is more straight forward that 95% of general practicing physicians. But we are talking a few thousand reports of side effects (to my knowledge) when 10’s of millions of people consume it.

At the same time, that doesn’t mean it’s safe long term. I would be concerned about ANY artifical additive that is cholorine-washed like sucrolose is. Further, there has been no legit studies done on it. The FDA is a complete joke, because they pick and choose what they feel like approving, regardless of studies/research. I believe sucrolose has ONE measly study done on it, and it wasn’t to test toxcity, and there were a few dozen participants. Hardly scientific especially for an additive that is in almost everything diet or low-carb now.

I too would buy the crap out of a stevia-based product, even if it was say 5 bucks more per unit than Grow!. But, then again, as I already said, I am nearly forced to buy Grow! because of it’s over-all value.

BTW, IMO, stevia has almost a bitter aftertaste, I don’t think it would be the ideal natural sweetener, but maybe it could be used in combination or refined somehow.

Good discussion, but AF guy could take a chill-pill… we are all T-Men here! We don’t need mutany between the ranks… sorry, I had to say that!

TopSirloin

94

I’ve used your products ever since I learned about your site. I really wish you guys would start making Myostat now that you’ve kicked the company’s nuts into their lungs that tried to beat you by taking you to court. In effect, they’ve won because we can’t get the product from you any more. I WILL BUY MYOSTAT IF IT WERE TO BECOME AVAILABLE AGAIN!

95

[quote]CaliKing wrote:
USAFMTI wrote:
I have read plenty on effects that sucralose has had on people and have witnessed it personally.

AF Sergeant

I was going to ask what you have seen in regards to side effects in people due to Splenda intake? I use Splenda and stevia, so I just wanted to be careful. I was under the impression splenda was one of the better sweetners.[/quote]

As Top Sirloin stated, there have been numerous side effects of sucralose reported. I have personally seen people get rid of migraines by eliminating sucralose from their diet.

Try a google advanced search. Use sucralose for the exact phrase and “side effects” for the “with all the words” box. This will lead you to plenty of reading material.

By the way, good post Top Sirloin. Your struggle to find a reasonably priced naturally sweetened protein powder is exactly why I was asking Biotest to consider making a Grow! Natural.

I admit I came off sounding like a prick but that’s because I am tired of people saying stuff like “Where’s the research/evidence?”. The original post was about Biotest products. I asked Biotest to provide a new product to meet my needs and anyone else’s who shares my view. I never once tried to get on a soapbox and preach on artificial vs. natural sweeteners. Nevertheless, people felt compelled to chime in and plead their case, in a matter of fact/argumentative manner.

The bottom line is we are all T-Nation members and potential Biotest customers. Anyone has the right to ask for a product without stating a reason. It is up to Biotest to decide if there is a great enough demand. Anyone with a dissenting view/opinion can voice it in the proper forum, in the proper manner.

AF Sergeant out

96

Don’t talk much, but had to say something here. I also stopped using Grow! due to sucralose. After using it for a while EVERYTHING I ate had a sweet taste to it. I found I can take 1 scoop per day without this taste, but after that apparently I cannot flush it out fast enough. Tried another brand and it was worse. Was going to try regular Grow!, but there was sucralose in that as well (definitely not the original formula guys, but probably better than other artificial sweeteners). Currently taking whey with fructose from Trader Joe’s (not that I like this option much either)also use eggs, cottage cheese and lots of meat (best part).

As for Tim’s talk. Glad to hear from him. We do not hear enough from Tim, not that we don’t love TC, but Tim lays it out for us. I love your supplements for the most part. Power Drive makes me develop muscle twitches (again it works well though), but other than that I have liked them. I still recommend them to others even if I don’t use them. I cycle RED KAT and ZMA almost all the time and I get them from you. I currently get Fish Oil at Trader Joe’s, but have a feeling that will end soon.

Your shipping is the best. Your supplements are the best overall. If you get a chance to reformulate Classic Grow! (probably not going to happen). Maybe you could use a classic sweetener like sugar? You could make it less sweet to keep carbs down, add micellular casein, and it would be cool to throw in some fiber too. I was adding psyllium husk to mine. Tried the SAN infusion and it was Wayyyy to sweet. Probably will suffer with the Low-Carb Grow! in low doses for now once I get this sweet taste out of my mouth.

Thanks for your dedication to your customers. Just because we don’t say anything doesn’t mean we don’t appreciate you.

97

You know… I can find 5lbs of all natural whey protein for $26…

98

Can you tell us what the time frame is for the release of the fish oil product?

99

I agree completely with eliminating the sucralose.

It is the very reason I just order my own custom blend with no sweeteners.

100

I like the idea of no sweeteners. Not using Surge/Grow! for the taste. If I can mow down a can of sardines I can handle non-sweetened whey protein products.

[quote]Legolas wrote:
I agree completely with eliminating the sucralose.

It is the very reason I just order my own custom blend with no sweeteners.[/quote]