[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Believe it or not, I came around. You probably don’t care and think I’m an asshole by now, but I just wanted Loftearmen to know his advice didn’t fall on deaf ears.
That’s what I’ll be doing:
Day 1
Floor Press 5x5-10
Weighted Chin Up 5x5-10
Box Front Squat 5x5-10
Lateral Raise 3x10-15
Day 2
Overhead Pin Press 5x5-10
Barbell Row 5x5-10
Romanian Deadlift 5x5-10
Hip Thrust 3x10-15
I’ll be sacrificing muscle mass on the lateral parts of by body, but I’ll be building strength in the trunk of my body.[/quote]
I’m glad you came around, you will benefit from this a lot more than you would from using a lot of isolation exercises. You aren’t going to be sacrificing hypertrophy at all though. Don’t worry about that in the least. The only change I would recommend to that schedule is that you swap the box front squat for box back squats since you said you were having anterior knee pain when squatting. Try to get those glutes and hammies into the movement by sitting waaaay back onto the box. In time, you’ll quit having pain in your knees as you squat. I’m confident in this because you’re young enough that I doubt you have any arthritic changes in the knees so what is causing the pain can be easily corrected.
Oops, almost forgot something. I understand you doing pin presses because you’re long limbed and you want to shorten the ROM a bit and I agree with that to some extent; however, I think there’s a better way to do it. If you have access to bands or chains for your ohp then you can “eliminate” the bottom part of the lift by using a lighter bar weight with a lot of accommodated resistance. This way you still get the benefits of using a full ROM but you still get to have the difficult portion of the lift be a shorter ROM.
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Believe it or not, I came around. You probably don’t care and think I’m an asshole by now, but I just wanted Loftearmen to know his advice didn’t fall on deaf ears.
That’s what I’ll be doing:
Day 1
Floor Press 5x5-10
Weighted Chin Up 5x5-10
Box Front Squat 5x5-10
Lateral Raise 3x10-15
Day 2
Overhead Pin Press 5x5-10
Barbell Row 5x5-10
Romanian Deadlift 5x5-10
Hip Thrust 3x10-15
[/quote]
Well that is certainly manning up. Well done.
Now a couple things to remember.
1.) Boxing training is still working the muscles, so you may very well not need as much “isolation” work or “accessory” work as someone who “just” lifts/bodybuilds.
2.) Fighting/boxing is skill and energy intensive, but it can be very “fuzzy” about what types of training pay off immediately, or exactly why you do better/worse in a given workout.
So don’t freak out if you have bad days, and don’t think you found the grail if you had one terrific session, with the iron or in the ring. Especially because boxing makes the assumption that the asshole in front of you has his own plans a whole lot of it is about making your “average” performance better rather than getting a once a year PR because everything fell into place.
I understand that boxing is not that objective in terms of tracking improvement/progress, so I start with drilling the basic stuff and getting the technique right, even if it means throwing less punches. I’m focusing a lot on making my punches more snappy than pushy, if that makes sense. My right hand gets better much quicker than my left hand in that department, even though I hit less with it (orthodox).
And yea, leaning out is definitely a benefit I’m looking forward to. It’s a nice bonus to boxing training, provided that I track calories and macros, which I do.
Mina293 is my old account, but I forgot the password, so it seemed like less of a hassle to make a new account. Mina293 was already logged in from my phone though. When I posted, I thought the new account was already logged in, but it was the old one.
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Believe it or not, I came around. You probably don’t care and think I’m an asshole by now, but I just wanted Loftearmen to know his advice didn’t fall on deaf ears.
That’s what I’ll be doing:
Day 1
Floor Press 5x5-10
Weighted Chin Up 5x5-10
Box Front Squat 5x5-10
Lateral Raise 3x10-15
Day 2
Overhead Pin Press 5x5-10
Barbell Row 5x5-10
Romanian Deadlift 5x5-10
Hip Thrust 3x10-15
I’ll be sacrificing muscle mass on the lateral parts of by body, but I’ll be building strength in the trunk of my body.[/quote]
I’m glad you came around, you will benefit from this a lot more than you would from using a lot of isolation exercises. You aren’t going to be sacrificing hypertrophy at all though. Don’t worry about that in the least. The only change I would recommend to that schedule is that you swap the box front squat for box back squats since you said you were having anterior knee pain when squatting. Try to get those glutes and hammies into the movement by sitting waaaay back onto the box. In time, you’ll quit having pain in your knees as you squat. I’m confident in this because you’re young enough that I doubt you have any arthritic changes in the knees so what is causing the pain can be easily corrected.[/quote]
I ordered the Tommy Kono knee sleeves for leg training, so they should help with the box squats. I will experiment with both front and back variations on my next lifting sessions to see if box front squats hurt my knees with the sleeves and if box back squats turn to a lower back movement. What do you think of lumberjack squats? You use a landmine to do goblet squats, that’s what they are. You can load them much heavier than standard goblets, for obvious reasons.
By the way, are you suggesting high bar or low bar box squats?
About the shortened range of motion, I don’t have any bands or chains handy, unfortunately. Chains look cool.
One last thing, what do you mean by 5x5-10? Straight sets of 5 reps, keep progressing until you get 10 reps, then increase the weight? Or ramping up to a set of 5-10? Or reverse pyramid style with a top set of 5 and backdown sets of higher reps?
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Believe it or not, I came around. You probably don’t care and think I’m an asshole by now, but I just wanted Loftearmen to know his advice didn’t fall on deaf ears.
That’s what I’ll be doing:
Day 1
Floor Press 5x5-10
Weighted Chin Up 5x5-10
Box Front Squat 5x5-10
Lateral Raise 3x10-15
Day 2
Overhead Pin Press 5x5-10
Barbell Row 5x5-10
Romanian Deadlift 5x5-10
Hip Thrust 3x10-15
I’ll be sacrificing muscle mass on the lateral parts of by body, but I’ll be building strength in the trunk of my body.[/quote]
I’m glad you came around, you will benefit from this a lot more than you would from using a lot of isolation exercises. You aren’t going to be sacrificing hypertrophy at all though. Don’t worry about that in the least. The only change I would recommend to that schedule is that you swap the box front squat for box back squats since you said you were having anterior knee pain when squatting. Try to get those glutes and hammies into the movement by sitting waaaay back onto the box. In time, you’ll quit having pain in your knees as you squat. I’m confident in this because you’re young enough that I doubt you have any arthritic changes in the knees so what is causing the pain can be easily corrected.[/quote]
I ordered the Tommy Kono knee sleeves for leg training, so they should help with the box squats. I will experiment with both front and back variations on my next lifting sessions to see if box front squats hurt my knees with the sleeves and if box back squats turn to a lower back movement. What do you think of lumberjack squats? You use a landmine to do goblet squats, that’s what they are. You can load them much heavier than standard goblets, for obvious reasons.
By the way, are you suggesting high bar or low bar box squats?
About the shortened range of motion, I don’t have any bands or chains handy, unfortunately. Chains look cool.
One last thing, what do you mean by 5x5-10? Straight sets of 5 reps, keep progressing until you get 10 reps, then increase the weight? Or ramping up to a set of 5-10? Or reverse pyramid style with a top set of 5 and backdown sets of higher reps?
Thanks bruh.[/quote]
You could do the reps that way if you want. I would do something more like this: (assuming you have a 315x5 squat max)
Warm up
45x10
135x10
Work Sets
225x10
245x10
265x8
295x5
315x5
Then the next week you would go for 320x5, etc…
As far as the squats go, with your knee pain you are not going to want to squat with the weight in front of you. It’s gotta be wide stance, low bar, barbell back squats for now. Trust me on this. Throw out your fancy ass lift variations and do the basic barbell lifts. You are not a high level lifter, stop trying to train like one. Stick with the basics until you NEED the fancy shit (fyi, I have an elite total as a SHW and as a 308 and won the APF Tx cup 4 years in a row and I STILL don’t need the fancy shit). Right now you are new, just turn your brain off and lift.
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Believe it or not, I came around. You probably don’t care and think I’m an asshole by now, but I just wanted Loftearmen to know his advice didn’t fall on deaf ears.
That’s what I’ll be doing:
Day 1
Floor Press 5x5-10
Weighted Chin Up 5x5-10
Box Front Squat 5x5-10
Lateral Raise 3x10-15
Day 2
Overhead Pin Press 5x5-10
Barbell Row 5x5-10
Romanian Deadlift 5x5-10
Hip Thrust 3x10-15
I’ll be sacrificing muscle mass on the lateral parts of by body, but I’ll be building strength in the trunk of my body.[/quote]
I’m glad you came around, you will benefit from this a lot more than you would from using a lot of isolation exercises. You aren’t going to be sacrificing hypertrophy at all though. Don’t worry about that in the least. The only change I would recommend to that schedule is that you swap the box front squat for box back squats since you said you were having anterior knee pain when squatting. Try to get those glutes and hammies into the movement by sitting waaaay back onto the box. In time, you’ll quit having pain in your knees as you squat. I’m confident in this because you’re young enough that I doubt you have any arthritic changes in the knees so what is causing the pain can be easily corrected.[/quote]
I ordered the Tommy Kono knee sleeves for leg training, so they should help with the box squats. I will experiment with both front and back variations on my next lifting sessions to see if box front squats hurt my knees with the sleeves and if box back squats turn to a lower back movement. What do you think of lumberjack squats? You use a landmine to do goblet squats, that’s what they are. You can load them much heavier than standard goblets, for obvious reasons.
By the way, are you suggesting high bar or low bar box squats?
About the shortened range of motion, I don’t have any bands or chains handy, unfortunately. Chains look cool.
One last thing, what do you mean by 5x5-10? Straight sets of 5 reps, keep progressing until you get 10 reps, then increase the weight? Or ramping up to a set of 5-10? Or reverse pyramid style with a top set of 5 and backdown sets of higher reps?
Thanks bruh.[/quote]
You could do the reps that way if you want. I would do something more like this: (assuming you have a 315x5 squat max)
Warm up
45x10
135x10
Work Sets
225x10
245x10
265x8
295x5
315x5
Then the next week you would go for 320x5, etc…
As far as the squats go, with your knee pain you are not going to want to squat with the weight in front of you. It’s gotta be wide stance, low bar, barbell back squats for now. Trust me on this. Throw out your fancy ass lift variations and do the basic barbell lifts. You are not a high level lifter, stop trying to train like one. Stick with the basics until you NEED the fancy shit (fyi, I have an elite total as a SHW and as a 308 and won the APF Tx cup 4 years in a row and I STILL don’t need the fancy shit). Right now you are new, just turn your brain off and lift.[/quote]
Alright, low bar wide stance posterior chain dominant westside smelling box squats it is. And yea, I’ve seen your log. Fucking monstrous. And inspiring.
Last question, what do you think of adding two backdown sets after the 315x5, to get more volume in?
Like this: 315x5, 285x6, 255x7
Decrease weight by 10%, increase reps by 1.
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
I would start without the back off sets and slowly add them in after a few months. This should be plenty of volume at first. Good luck![/quote]
I defer to Loftearmen about training to get strong.
I am going to give another reason to not add the back up sets right away.
You have other, at least additional and possibly higher, priorities. Namely, training boxing.
Another member basically codified the Universal Theory of Combat Training.
It goes:
Skill Work-Practicing and improving the actual combat sport/art
is more important than
Conditioning Work-Being able to perform skills at higher levels longer
is more important than
Strength Work-Being physically stronger
Now, they are all very, very important. They all need to be trained and should be improved. However, when you get to a point where one starts interfering with another, you decrease the volume, frequency, or intensity of the lowest priority training first. Maintaining strength, while getting more skilled and in better “shape”/more “wind” is better than getting stronger and better conditioned but no more skilled.
“Legs”/lower body weight training, grip(especially for grapplers), and “shoulder”(especially for strikers) exercises tend to take a lot out of people doing combat sports training. Even if adding extra squat/deadlift/lower body volume increased the rate you get stronger if it stunts your ability to train boxing than it isn’t worth it from a fighter’s perspective.
It is fine to occasionally be really sore from a weight or conditioning workout and drag ass in the boxing gym because of it. If once a month or less you are sort of limping two days after squatting and hence you footwork, and ability to bob, dip, and crouch all suck for a training session that is fine and you shouldn’t change anything. On the other hand if you hate having to walk up or down stairs for 2 days at a time every time you lift (which is fine and a badge of honor for a lot of lifters or bodybuilders) than that equates to a lot of diminished boxing practice.
So definitely do what Loftearmen says. As long as you are improving/getting stronger AT ALL while still able to train boxing and conditioning I wouldn’t add volume.
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
I would start without the back off sets and slowly add them in after a few months. This should be plenty of volume at first. Good luck![/quote]
I defer to Loftearmen about training to get strong.
I am going to give another reason to not add the back up sets right away.
You have other, at least additional and possibly higher, priorities. Namely, training boxing.
Another member basically codified the Universal Theory of Combat Training.
It goes:
Skill Work-Practicing and improving the actual combat sport/art
is more important than
Conditioning Work-Being able to perform skills at higher levels longer
is more important than
Strength Work-Being physically stronger
Now, they are all very, very important. They all need to be trained and should be improved. However, when you get to a point where one starts interfering with another, you decrease the volume, frequency, or intensity of the lowest priority training first. Maintaining strength, while getting more skilled and in better “shape”/more “wind” is better than getting stronger and better conditioned but no more skilled.
“Legs”/lower body weight training, grip(especially for grapplers), and “shoulder”(especially for strikers) exercises tend to take a lot out of people doing combat sports training. Even if adding extra squat/deadlift/lower body volume increased the rate you get stronger if it stunts your ability to train boxing than it isn’t worth it from a fighter’s perspective.
It is fine to occasionally be really sore from a weight or conditioning workout and drag ass in the boxing gym because of it. If once a month or less you are sort of limping two days after squatting and hence you footwork, and ability to bob, dip, and crouch all suck for a training session that is fine and you shouldn’t change anything. On the other hand if you hate having to walk up or down stairs for 2 days at a time every time you lift (which is fine and a badge of honor for a lot of lifters or bodybuilders) than that equates to a lot of diminished boxing practice.
So definitely do what Loftearmen says. As long as you are improving/getting stronger AT ALL while still able to train boxing and conditioning I wouldn’t add volume.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Thank you for the advice. I have a little inquiry.
I want to increase my conditioning. Boxing is 75% anaerobic and 25% aerobic, so any energy spent on aerobic training would be better invested in anaerobic training. This means sprints or treadmill intervals. However, isn’t boxing skill work considered a conditioning workout in its own right? I mean hitting the heavy bag, sparring, punch mitts…etc. If I’m doing those to train boxing skills, wouldn’t they train conditioning as well? Does that mean my time and energy are better spent on the heavy bag than treadmill intervals, since it accomplishes more? I can’t sprint because it’s -10 degrees outside. Canada.
Thank you.
I have found that striking drills/muay thai skill work are a very good conditioning tool but a lot of the time you need to slow it down so you can focus on your technique. I have been doing my conditioning work on a track in the morning in below freezing weather. So can you as long as you have a track without ice on it near your house. Then at night I go to class where they do a bunch of skills training and then they kick your ass with bear crawls, sit ups and push ups before you leave.
I don’t have a track, but I’ll figure something out. What do you think of treadmill intervals?
Also, your lifting routine is great. I did a Press/Chin up/BoxSquat workout on Sunday and ended it feeling refreshed rather than drained. Threw in a half hour of speed bag practice after it.
I have found that my strikes never developed a proper snap to them before I practiced the speed bag. Once I got proficient with it, my punches became less tense, faster and more akin to a whip than a press. I can also punch more because they don’t take as much out of me.
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Thank you for the advice. I have a little inquiry.
[/quote]
No problem. I try to be of use.
Alright. We need to stop here for a second. the 75/25 thing sounds very specific. I am going to assume you got that from some kind of study. I am not familiar with exactly which one you are citing/referencing but a lot of folks contend boxing is “primarily” anaerobic, meaning that anaerobic energy production is the primary means of punching, slipping, and blocking. That is true enough, but we need to keep some things in check.
Boxing is only “mostly” anaerobic because a shit ton of explosive, sudden energy needs to be expended ON TOP of what would be a pretty taxing aerobic event. If you “fought” an 8-12 round fight solo, just spirited shadow boxing really, you would get a hell of an aerobic work out. It would be 31-47 minutes of real, honest aerobics. You know those boxercise/cardio kickboxing classes London thought you were in? They will drop your balls into your socks if you aren’t in good shape. Boxing starts there and then has you punching full power and trying like hell to not get hit back.
The reason for typing all that out is that if you do not have a great aerobic base (some folks get real specific about what your resting heart rate and waking heart rate should be to meet this, along with V02 measures) than “just” doing aerobic work for extra conditioning makes a lot of sense. This is why so many guys with less book/study reading but a hell of a lot of gym/fight game miles say to do “roadwork” at a light running pace.
TLDR:
Pro-Tip: If you can’t hold your breath watching the event on TV, it is probably somewhat aerobic. It is no big deal to watch someone bench, squat, DL, throw a hammer, etc. in one breath. A boxing round is 3 minutes. Most folks can’t hold their breath that long. We can hold our breath watching Usain Bolt run. We can’t hold our breath for the triathlon competition.
If you could only do one or the other than bag/mitt work/sparring are all beat out any “supplemental” training because of the skill component. It is pretty damn obvious that if you practice boxing you will box better than the dude who optimizes his sprint/weight room training instead.
Two pitfalls with the James Toney Just Spar method of training though.
1.) You can’t improve a skill when you are gasping for breath. This didn’t apply to Toney, but for the rest of us it shows up in spades. This may mean either slowing the work down and losing the “conditioning” benefit or practicing bad technique. This will matter the most in the beginning, once you have a training time measured in years it is less of an issue that some extra bag work when you are tired is going to completely screw up your mechanics, but if you are just starting out you wan’t the number of your best/“as close to perfect as possible” reps to greatly outnumber your “tired”/sloppy form reps.
2.) Not all training is equally taxing of recovery. As you start hitting harder and harder, bag work gets harder on your body. There may come a time when you really can’t recover from an “extra” 10 rounds of heavy bag work in a week. Perhaps you can’t even handle an extra 20 minutes of intervals/wind sprints. In these circumstances slower and lower intensity running or shadow boxing can still be done. In fact, they may even be “tonic” or aid recovery.
Now, in the interest of comedy:
Apologize for Brian Adams right now.
Back to serious:
Thank you for taking advice and being able to put some ego/initial excommunications away. That may be internetting the wrong way, but it is the best way to live. I hope some of the above helps.
For the record, I am from the Pajama Fighter/Gi Fag end of the board. FightinIrish has a hell of a lot of time in Boxing Gyms and around fighters and he has plenty of experience making work week/boxing/lifting/and life schedules all match up. LondonBoxer has high level amateur experience and training experience so if anything I write conflicts with them I would defer to their opinions.
[quote]Egyptian wrote:
Thank you for the advice. I have a little inquiry.
[/quote]
No problem. I try to be of use.
Alright. We need to stop here for a second. the 75/25 thing sounds very specific. I am going to assume you got that from some kind of study. I am not familiar with exactly which one you are citing/referencing but a lot of folks contend boxing is “primarily” anaerobic, meaning that anaerobic energy production is the primary means of punching, slipping, and blocking. That is true enough, but we need to keep some things in check.
Boxing is only “mostly” anaerobic because a shit ton of explosive, sudden energy needs to be expended ON TOP of what would be a pretty taxing aerobic event. If you “fought” an 8-12 round fight solo, just spirited shadow boxing really, you would get a hell of an aerobic work out. It would be 31-47 minutes of real, honest aerobics. You know those boxercise/cardio kickboxing classes London thought you were in? They will drop your balls into your socks if you aren’t in good shape. Boxing starts there and then has you punching full power and trying like hell to not get hit back.
The reason for typing all that out is that if you do not have a great aerobic base (some folks get real specific about what your resting heart rate and waking heart rate should be to meet this, along with V02 measures) than “just” doing aerobic work for extra conditioning makes a lot of sense. This is why so many guys with less book/study reading but a hell of a lot of gym/fight game miles say to do “roadwork” at a light running pace.
TLDR:
Pro-Tip: If you can’t hold your breath watching the event on TV, it is probably somewhat aerobic. It is no big deal to watch someone bench, squat, DL, throw a hammer, etc. in one breath. A boxing round is 3 minutes. Most folks can’t hold their breath that long. We can hold our breath watching Usain Bolt run. We can’t hold our breath for the triathlon competition.
If you could only do one or the other than bag/mitt work/sparring are all beat out any “supplemental” training because of the skill component. It is pretty damn obvious that if you practice boxing you will box better than the dude who optimizes his sprint/weight room training instead.
Two pitfalls with the James Toney Just Spar method of training though.
1.) You can’t improve a skill when you are gasping for breath. This didn’t apply to Toney, but for the rest of us it shows up in spades. This may mean either slowing the work down and losing the “conditioning” benefit or practicing bad technique. This will matter the most in the beginning, once you have a training time measured in years it is less of an issue that some extra bag work when you are tired is going to completely screw up your mechanics, but if you are just starting out you wan’t the number of your best/“as close to perfect as possible” reps to greatly outnumber your “tired”/sloppy form reps.
2.) Not all training is equally taxing of recovery. As you start hitting harder and harder, bag work gets harder on your body. There may come a time when you really can’t recover from an “extra” 10 rounds of heavy bag work in a week. Perhaps you can’t even handle an extra 20 minutes of intervals/wind sprints. In these circumstances slower and lower intensity running or shadow boxing can still be done. In fact, they may even be “tonic” or aid recovery.
Now, in the interest of comedy:
Apologize for Brian Adams right now.
Back to serious:
Thank you for taking advice and being able to put some ego/initial excommunications away. That may be internetting the wrong way, but it is the best way to live. I hope some of the above helps.
For the record, I am from the Pajama Fighter/Gi Fag end of the board. FightinIrish has a hell of a lot of time in Boxing Gyms and around fighters and he has plenty of experience making work week/boxing/lifting/and life schedules all match up. LondonBoxer has high level amateur experience and training experience so if anything I write conflicts with them I would defer to their opinions.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
All your points are convincing. Professional boxers do roadwork 5 days a week. I’m training for amateur bouts, so building up to 5 miles 2-4 times a week is a good start. Anaerobic training will consist of boxing skill work, especially bag punch-out drills. Those are as brutal as they are effective. When I get to a decent level or aerobic conditioning, I will replace some of the roadwork sessions with sprints or intervals.
Bryan Adams played some good solos, but his music is not my cup of tea. Gotta apologize to Celine Dione though lol.
Again, thanks. You put so much thought into this, one would be surprised you’re doing it for free.