Well, this is akward.
Brick has always been there to give great advice, and is one of the most knowledgeable people on these forums when it comes to both lifting AND nutrition. You’re the freakin man Brick, Nuff said.
Well Brick, I’ve been out of them gym for around 3 months and out of work for 1 month due to illness. During this time I’ve spent nearly everyday in bed reading on T-Nation, following the bodybuilding bible as well as reading things from Cephalic, Waylander and ProfessorX.
I’ll be heading back to work this week, and back to the gym next week, it’ll be the first time ever coming in with an actual nutrition plan. And im going to be following your bodybuilding bible nearly to a T. Keep the good shit coming.
[quote]Elite0423 wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
Let’s get some training talk going on in here.
C’mon
[/quote]
Brick, can you list a few obstacles you think most newbs encounter and how they can be avoided? or somethings you wish you had not done coming up? as in diet, training choice, etc.
[/quote]
I know I’m not Brick but I’ll get it started 
1 - Not eating enough for muscle growth (not consistent enough with nutrition)
Solution = Make sure you are consistently eating enough (plan ahead), get in a base solid meal plan and maybe have some liquid meals to “finish it off”. Don’t be the “bulking on weeks one and two”, and “snacking (just to keep hunger away) on weeks 3 and 4”.
Don’t get carried away with special macro-nutrient partitioning - “I’m following the ‘anabolic diet’ blah blah blah”…just keep it basic and balanced and don’t do extremes. Concentrate on getting the calories in first.
2 - Doing too much “fluff/fillers” in the workout. Not getting the most out of an exercise (not using enough intensity/volume).
Solution = Work up to a max weight on the basic exercises and make sure you get in enough volume for them. Why move onto tricep kickbacks if you didn’t even work up to a decent weight/volume on your first basic arm movement? Don’t be “jack of all exercises and master of none”.
Got to go to work now, but that’s a start…
Thanks for all the kind words.
Although I believe I’m very knowledgeable about training and dietetics/nutrition–I’m a dietitian after all and my MS concentration is nutrition and exercise and have been exercising for 15 years (actually active since a very young age despite not being super athletic)–I’m definitely NOT the most COMPETENT person in bodybuilding on this board, because as everyone who reads my posts knows, I’m into general fitness and running now.
I also don’t post much anymore because I’m busier (I was unemployed when I made the Rapid Fat Loss and BB Bible threads) and have other interests and priorities - not to mention I’ve been THOROUGHLY HEARTBROKEN - the most heartbroken I’ve ever been - for the past month and am just starting to feel better.
But I’ll share more of what I know (and feel)…
Destroyed Quads: Thanks!
Myth: I updated the thread with more goofy shit jagoffs say.
Savorek: Thanks so much. Maybe we can all talk more when I come out with my website late this year or next year.
Elite: As I’ve mentioned before, I wasted too much time listening to gurus who for some reason put down bodybuilders while recommending routines that have no place in bodybuilding. Look at the BB bible and you’ll see what EVERY bodybuilder has done for the past 6 decades or so.
Although I HIGHLY respect the names I’m about to drop, I don’t think it’s wrong to say that the programs espoused by Ian King, Alwyn Cosgrove, Charles Poliquin, and Chad Waterbury are NOT applicable to PURE, REAL bodybuilding. And when I say PURE and REAL, I mean that although someone can DEFINITELY gain size and athleticism and better their health and appearance from them, they aren’t for getting as jacked and SYMMETRICAL and aesthetically pleasing as possible - which is why no bodybuilders do those sort of routines.
I DO more “functional”, general fitness routines now–my current full body template are right out of Alwyn Cosgrove’s and Chad Waterbury’s writings–but they don’t have a place in bodybuilding.
I goofed around with wacky diets for some strange reasons unbeknown to me this moment I type this; I really don’t know why. Maybe for fun. No clue!
Another mistake I made–and this might be a surprise to some people–is that I sacrificed too much in terms of lifestyle for someone who wound up never competing and was never going to earn a living from bodybuilding. It’s like Dave Tate explained in his last interview: It’s not worth it to take things to extreme limits if you’re livelihood and LIFE aren’t dependent on them.
What doing extreme things did to me was degrade other areas of life and then made me actually resentful to my own hobby and ADDICTION (yes, for some time in my life, some YEARS, working out was an addiction for me). That’s not good for some thing you want to excel in, despite the fact that you’re progress in it might not be OPTIMAL, but could have at least been CONTINUOUS and CONSISTENT. So I SHOULD HAVE missed a meal or workout here and there to be out with my friends or women late at night, at a beach, a bar, a club, a weekend getaway with NO working out or food obsession!
Am I telling YOU people to do the same? NO! But these are mistakes I made FOR ME. Last summer, I was in the worst shape of my life from hardly working out, hence the reason why (my NOW online acquaintance) Stronghold managed to dig up photos from Facebook of a pudgy, disheveled me. I was so fucking burnt out from taking what was supposed to be a fun, RECREATIONAL hobby that I went from being one of the most physically disciplined people I know–actually the MOST disciplined in my social circle–to someone that truly didn’t give a shit!
So I recommend that REGULAR guys make CONSISTENT gains rather than OPTIMAL gains. Maybe that’s my basic point in this whole thing - something completely unrelated to lifting the weights and eating food but can actually sabotage those very things!
And I’m sharing a pic from last night to show how much better shape I’m in (although not really big anymore) than last summer. I still have some guns despite nearly all my training consisting of running. NO, it’s not shirtless. Despite everyone being pic crazy on here, I DON’T wish to show shirtless pics of myself; I just don’t care to.
More shit I did wrong:
-
Straight sets.
-
Bulking up too much. This one has been beaten to fucking death, and I DO CARE to beat it to death MORE, even if it goes against what some of the biggest men on this board recommend.
I speak to MOST of the people on this board, not the FEW who have demonstrated or or shown they have the intellect (no distrespect to the more ordinary and less advanced people on this board), competence, genetics, experience, and EXTREME DISCIPLINE to successfully pull off big bulking Way Lander, Professor X, Modok, Cephalic Carnage, and a few others.
Like Chris Shugart, I believe that most men can’t pull off big bulking successfully. That is, they can’t pull it off because it’s not even worth it in the first place because they aren’t blessed in the muscle gain department in the first place, making this endeavor useless to begin with; they don’t know how to come down without losing too much muscle (a matter of being knowledgeable and competent in the nutrition department); and they wind up with lost skin tautness, stretch marks, and exceedingly-difficult-to-get-rid-of fat deposits - deposits that seem to hang around FOR LIFE, and most likely WILL for most ordinary folks.
creeeek… there goes the sound of a can of worms.
It’s so hard to qualify that line of thinking with the “It must be THIS or THAT” mindset bodybuilding brings… I wish you luck lol.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
2) Bulking up too much. This one has been beaten to fucking death, and I DO CARE to beat it to death MORE, even if it goes against what some of the biggest men on this board recommend.
I speak to MOST of the people on this board, not the FEW who have demonstrated or or shown they have the intellect (no distrespect to the more ordinary and less advanced people on this board), competence, genetics, experience, and EXTREME DISCIPLINE to successfully pull off big bulking Way Lander, Professor X, Modok, Cephalic Carnage, and a few others.
Like Chris Shugart, I believe that most men can’t pull off big bulking successfully. That is, they can’t pull it off because it’s not even worth it in the first place because they aren’t blessed in the muscle gain department in the first place, making this endeavor useless to begin with; they don’t know how to come down without losing too much muscle (a matter of being knowledgeable and competent in the nutrition department); and they wind up with lost skin tautness, stretch marks, and exceedingly-difficult-to-get-rid-of fat deposits - deposits that seem to hang around FOR LIFE, and most likely WILL for most ordinary folks. [/quote]
So what is the alternative? Sorry, I don’t mean to sound argumentative there, I just mean could you clarify?
Some say that there are two levels of bulking; a slower method, and the quicker method (whereby more damage control is needed in the end). Basically, the slower method entails not eating as much over maintenance as the quicker method. I guess you are saying go the slower route?
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
2) Bulking up too much. This one has been beaten to fucking death, and I DO CARE to beat it to death MORE, even if it goes against what some of the biggest men on this board recommend.
I speak to MOST of the people on this board, not the FEW who have demonstrated or or shown they have the intellect (no distrespect to the more ordinary and less advanced people on this board), competence, genetics, experience, and EXTREME DISCIPLINE to successfully pull off big bulking Way Lander, Professor X, Modok, Cephalic Carnage, and a few others.
Like Chris Shugart, I believe that most men can’t pull off big bulking successfully. That is, they can’t pull it off because it’s not even worth it in the first place because they aren’t blessed in the muscle gain department in the first place, making this endeavor useless to begin with; they don’t know how to come down without losing too much muscle (a matter of being knowledgeable and competent in the nutrition department); and they wind up with lost skin tautness, stretch marks, and exceedingly-difficult-to-get-rid-of fat deposits - deposits that seem to hang around FOR LIFE, and most likely WILL for most ordinary folks. [/quote]
So what is the alternative? Sorry, I don’t mean to sound argumentative there, I just mean could you clarify?
Some say that there are two levels of bulking; a slower method, and the quicker method (whereby more damage control is needed in the end). Basically, the slower method entails not eating as much over maintenance as the quicker method. I guess you are saying go the slower route?[/quote]
I THINK (that is, I don’t KNOW) most REGULAR PEOPLE are better off with the slower method.
And from what I’ve seen, MOST of the people on internet message boards lack the nutrition education AND are incapable of APPLYING this information. Not to mention that that the quick method requires more monitoring in the end. What fun is this?
BUT… if you’re one of the people who it DOES work for and LIKE doing it, then fuck it - DO IT!
In the past, I have overestimated food intake quite a bit and have been deceived into thinking that the fuller look was muscle…so I’m torn between the two at the moment.
On the one hand, overestimating calorie requirements (“see food diet”) is easier than trying to get it bang on (with trying to guess it bang on there is a fine line between gaining and homeostasis). Trying to get it bang on just over maintenance intake requires quite a bit of planning and can be more frustrating. For those with a “normal” lifestyle, trying to calculate things to the degree necessary means having no life.
And on the other hand, going the slower method means less damage control for later on (this is especially important for those who can’t bear the thought of their waist line increasing by much lol). Also, the slower method solidifies gains more before having to diet off the fat (the strength/muscle gains are more “earned”).
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
In the past, I have overestimated food intake quite a bit and have been deceived into thinking that the fuller look was muscle…so I’m torn between the two at the moment.
On the one hand, overestimating calorie requirements (“see food diet”) is easier than trying to get it bang on (with trying to guess it bang on there is a fine line between gaining and homeostasis). Trying to get it bang on just over maintenance intake requires quite a bit of planning and can be more frustrating. For those with a “normal” lifestyle, trying to calculate things to the degree necessary means having no life.
And on the other hand, going the slower method means less damage control for later on (this is especially important for those who can’t bear the thought of their waist line increasing by much lol). Also, the slower method solidifies gains more before having to diet off the fat (the strength/muscle gains are more “earned”).[/quote]
Exactly.
I don’t count anymore because I simply don’t care about things either way. Don’t care about getting bigger, nor do I care about getting SHREDDED.
I have 3 meals and 2 snacks (5 “meals” really).
Breakfast
Egg white omelet with 1 or 2 yolks, cheese, and veggies
Fruit
Lunch
Large salad with veggies, beans, and flax oil and vinegar OR salad dressing I like
40 to 50 grams of protein from fish, chicken, beef, pork, or shrimp
Fruit
Snack
Greek yogurt or cottage cheese
Sometimes some extra protein from pro powder
Mixed nuts
Craisins
OR I’ll have a tuna sandwich they give me at work for free and a piece of fruit
PWO dinner
Same shit as lunch but no flax oil or salad dressing - just vinegar on teh salad
Add on potato or yucca to the meal
Snack
Protein shake with protein powder and flax oil or peanut butter and some frozen berries
No counting.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
2) Bulking up too much. This one has been beaten to fucking death, and I DO CARE to beat it to death MORE, even if it goes against what some of the biggest men on this board recommend.
I speak to MOST of the people on this board, not the FEW who have demonstrated or or shown they have the intellect (no distrespect to the more ordinary and less advanced people on this board), competence, genetics, experience, and EXTREME DISCIPLINE to successfully pull off big bulking Way Lander, Professor X, Modok, Cephalic Carnage, and a few others.
Like Chris Shugart, I believe that most men can’t pull off big bulking successfully. That is, they can’t pull it off because it’s not even worth it in the first place because they aren’t blessed in the muscle gain department in the first place, making this endeavor useless to begin with; they don’t know how to come down without losing too much muscle (a matter of being knowledgeable and competent in the nutrition department); and they wind up with lost skin tautness, stretch marks, and exceedingly-difficult-to-get-rid-of fat deposits - deposits that seem to hang around FOR LIFE, and most likely WILL for most ordinary folks. [/quote]
So what is the alternative? Sorry, I don’t mean to sound argumentative there, I just mean could you clarify?
Some say that there are two levels of bulking; a slower method, and the quicker method (whereby more damage control is needed in the end). Basically, the slower method entails not eating as much over maintenance as the quicker method. I guess you are saying go the slower route?[/quote]
It depends what you mean by not that much over maintenance.
Let’s say your maintenance level as of right now is 3000 cals. The slower way would mean a ratio of about:
50% Protein
30% Carbs
20% Fat
So 1500 cals would be from protein(375g)
900 cals from carbs(225g)
600 from fat(150g)
The basic theory is that you add 200-300 cals EQUALLY WITH THIS RATIO after every 2 weeks or so or until you stop gaining weight. Most of your carbs should still come in after workouts.
And of course, all out bulking generally entails eating evrything in sight, however still making sure that protein is your #1 concern.
Most people don’t need so much damn extra calories to grow - 500 to 1,000 over maintenance, with 1,000 being quite a bit for most people (personal belief and observation). When and if I start taking on clients personally, I’ll have more experience to make such claims with more faith. But I’ve seen and spoken to enough REGULAR guys to be certain about this! I myself have lost skin tautness and stretch marks in some areas of my body from eating too much at times. This tautness most likely will never come back, OR will come back if I dieted and over exercised to near starvation levels.
Its: You asked for the alternative. Obviously the alternative to quick and big bulking is slow gaining. This issue has been beaten to death and this is what I believe despite some of the biggest guys on here arguing the opposite. And anyway, I’ve only seen two guys on here successfully pull it off and – as I wrote before! – these guys are HIGHLY knowledgeable and competent and dedicated to a point where they were in the position to pull this shit off in the first place. (No names.) And aside from the fact that these men might say shit like, “Don’t get on my back or be jealous of me because my genetics are so great; they aren’t!” This is bullshit; these men have decent genetics; if they didn’t, they wouldn’t reach the point they’re at.
And I do wonder, despite this being a personal choice, what guys really want to walk around big and bloated half or more of the year if they’re livelihood isn’t dependent on this? Most don’t.
One advantage of the slow gain route is that it builds consistency b/c you have to keep at it for longer periods of time.
I’ve simplified my diet to the point where each meal consists of:
1 serving of protein
1 serving of fruit
1 serving of vegetables
1 serving of healthy fats
I still pay attention to marco totals for the day, but I still keep it as simple as possible, and check the scale and mirror for feedback over time.
On the topic of adding calories and not going overboard and getting fat…this is something I’ve wanted to post on for ages but always end up deleting it before I press submit because the intended audience won’t read it and only the outliers and guys that already know this will comment, we will see how I do this time.
I work with Shelby Starnes, at the tail end of my fat loss diet I was doing
4 low carb days (off training days)
2 moderate carb days
1 high carb day
If you want the macros you can hire him yourself or take a peak at one of his many articles/e-books on the subject. Adequate protein, carbs and fat inversely proportional to each other as a generality.
When it was time to switch gears did he add 2,000 calories to my plan and a ton of pizza/ice cream? No, we took out one meal that had served as my PWO and added a pre/during/post workout mostly liquid protocol. The calorie swap was about +500 calories on training days and we tapered the cardio down. All the same counting and precision as a pre contest bodybuilder. Cardio still done 4x weekly. I just used my personal example for reference, that isn’t a recommendation for anyone in terms of setup unless you happen to have similar metabolism as me and train 3x a week in the fashion I do, carry the same bodyfat % and have the same goals.
I’m still eating chicken and rice meals, steak and veggies+healthy fats etc even though it’s off-season and we are working on lean mass for the next 8-10 months. I thought offseason was time for the buffet?(sarcasm)
For guys that want to pursue the bodybuilding lifestyle and be happy with themselves along the way it would behoove them to live like one day to day and worry about the junk food when you have maxed out all the good bodybuilding food(not likely). You aren’t likely to have a deep separated six pack and triceps striations year round unless you are just gifted in that area, but almost anyone can maintain “in decent shape”. Define that for yourself ahead of time, diet down if you need to but at least start off with some semblance of happiness.
Call it bro-science but a large percentage of bodybuilders eat good traditional bodybuilding foods the majority of the year. Guys that are Shelby’s Facebook friend see his status updates a few times a week about the food he eats, it’s lean or healthy fat meats, complex carbs and healthy fats all day every day… 5-6k calories worth. That’s a national level bodybuilder who walks around with abs at 220-230 year round. Why at 170 and chubby do you think you need 5k calories and 6 cheat meals a week? Maybe if we got down to brass tracks and put someone on good quality food they’d actually grow off a more calorie/macro moderate diet without turning into a tub in the process.
If you are blaming PX like a current outrageously bad thread because you ate baconators and lasagna 4x weekly “to get in the calories” and did no cardio… didn’t take progress pictures or bother to look in the mirror and you ended up fatter than you like you need to wake up and get some control over yourself. Can you have some fun foods? Yeah sure indulge on occasion, but do you NEED them as often as you want… not all that likely until you are maxing out your options. His advice is inherently good but the issue is he assumes people are intelligently pursuing this and that is woefully wrong for the most part.
Establish a baseline diet based on mostly “clean” foods and make adjustments every 1-3 weeks. As long as you are in the ball park of a reasonable diet with your initial plan you can eventually make it work. Checks and balances… Didn’t grow? Add 20 grams of carbs to 3 of your meals on training days and see how things go in a few weeks. If you are getting stronger on a reasonable program and your weight is trending upwards while not getting fatter than YOU are happy with you are doing fantastic. People here want to gain 9 lbs of muscle each much but outside of brand newbies or someone who just learned how to eat it’s not happening. You will scoff at this but if you put on 1 lb of muscle this month you are making good progress. I hope nobody is expecting to be Phil Heath after 2 years of training(or 12 weeks). You will know if you have thos kind of genetics because you won’t even be looking for advice in the first place. Average 1 lb of muscle every month for 5 years means you are now 60 lbs of muscle heavier than when you started and likely one of the best built natural guys in your gym unless you started way back in the pack. Very few are willing to do this consistently and correctly for long enough and that’s fine… it’s not a lifestyle for everyone and never will be.
There are certainly guys outside of the standard deviations that are exceptions to the usual process… that NEED to boatload the food to grow, just as there are guys who need to be on a STRICT diet and do cardio 5-6x a week or else they lay down fat. I don’t need someone to come here and say they ate junk and did fine, not everyone can do that… I know you exist lol.
**** the most important part of the post ******
Be happy with yourself, establish a limit of how much fat you are willing to carry. If that’s 8% so be it… you will likely have to be strict as hell and up on the cardio near daily unless you are naturally lean like that. If you want the absolute most muscle you can gain over the next year then you are going to HAVE to accept some body fat gain. Find out where you are on that need/willingness spectrum and get to work given your goals.
This isn’t easy but it is simple.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
On the topic of adding calories and not going overboard and getting fat…this is something I’ve wanted to post on for ages but always end up deleting it before I press submit because the intended audience won’t read it and only the outliers and guys that already know this will comment, we will see how I do this time.
I work with Shelby Starnes, at the tail end of my diet I was doing
4 low carb days (off training days)
2 moderate carb days
1 high carb day
If you want the macros you can hire him yourself or take a peak at one of his many articles/e-books on the subject. Adequate protein, carbs and fat inversely proportional to each other as a generality.
When it was time to switch gears did he add 2,000 calories to my plan and a ton of pizza/ice cream? No, we took out one meal that had served as my PWO and added a pre/during/post workout mostly liquid protocol. The calorie swap was about +500 calories on training days and we tapered the cardio down. All the same counting and precision as a pre contest bodybuilder. Cardio still done 4x weekly. I just used my personal example for reference, that isn’t a recommendation for anyone in terms of setup unless you happen to have similar metabolism as me and train 3x a week in the fashion I do, carry the same bodyfat % and have the same goals.
I’m still eating chicken and rice meals, steak and veggies+healthy fats etc even though it’s off-season and we are working on lean mass for the next 8-10 months. I thought offseason was time for the buffet?(sarcasm)
For guys that want to pursue the bodybuilding lifestyle and be happy with themselves along the way it would behoove them to live like one day to day and worry about the junk food when you have maxed out all the good bodybuilding food(not likely). You aren’t likely to have a deep separated six pack and triceps striations year round unless you are just gifted in that area, but almost anyone can maintain “in decent shape”. Define that for yourself ahead of time, diet down if you need to but at least start off with some semblance of happiness.
Call it bro-science but a large percentage of bodybuilders eat good traditional bodybuilding foods the majority of the year. Guys that are Shelby’s Facebook friend see his status updates a few times a week about the food he eats, it’s lean or healthy fat meats, complex carbs and healthy fats all day every day… 5-6k calories worth. That’s a national level bodybuilder who walks around with abs at 220-230 year round. Why at 170 and chubby do you think you need 5k calories and 6 cheat meals a week? Maybe if we got down to brass tracks and put someone on good quality food they’d actually grow off a more moderate diet without turning into a tub in the process.
If you are blaming PX like a current outrageously bad thread because you ate baconators and lasagna 4x weekly “to get in the calories” and did no cardio… didn’t take progress pictures or bother to look in the mirror and you ended up fatter than you like you need to wake up and get some control over yourself. Can you have some fun foods? Yeah sure, but do you NEED them as often as you want… not all that likely until you are maxing out your options. His advice is inherently good but the issue is he assumes people are intelligently pursuing this and that is woefully wrong for the most part.
Establish a baseline diet based on mostly “clean” foods and make adjustments every 1-3 weeks. As long as you re in the ball park with your plan you can eventually make it work. Didn’t grow? Add 20 grams of carbs to 3 of your meals on training days and see how things go in a few weeks. If you are getting stronger on a reasonable program and your weight is trending upwards while not getting fatter than YOU are happy with you are doing fantastic. People here want to gain 9 lbs of muscle each much but outside of brand newbies or someone who just learned how to eat it’s not happening. You will scoff at this but if you put on 1 lb of muscle this month you are making good progress. I hope nobody is expecting to be Phil Heath after 2 years of training(or 12 weeks). You will know if you have thos kind of genetics because you won’t even be looking for advice in the first place. Average 1 lb of muscle every month for 5 years means you are now 60 lbs of muscle heavier than when you started and likely one of the best built natural guys in your gym unless you started way back in the pack. Very few are willing to do this consistently and correctly for long enough and that’s fine… it’s not a lifestyle for everyone and never will be.
There are certainly guys outside of the standard deviations that are exceptions to the usual process… that NEED to boatload the food to grow, just as there are guys who need to be on a STRICT diet and do cardio 5-6x a week or else they lay down fat. I don’t need someone to come here and say they ate junk and did fine, not everyone can do that… I know you exist lol.
**** the most important part of the post ******
Be happy with yourself, establish a limit of how much fat you are willing to carry. If that’s 8% so be it… you will likely have to be strict as hell and up on the cardio near daily unless you are naturally lean like that. If you want the absolute most muscle you can gain over the next year then you are going to HAVE to accept some body fat gain. Find out where you are on that need/willingness spectrum and get to work given your goals.
This isn’t easy but it is simple.
[/quote]
really glad you didnt delete this. too bad there are so many guys who arent gonna see this though…
Great post ScottM !!
Scott M, that is probably the best post I’ve seen on this site.
GREAT… FUCKING… POST!