[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
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I’m not even going to get into the MMA scene. You want to see what happens to a bodybuilder when he steps in the Octagon? You did. It was called Brock Lesnar’s debut. That silver back gorilla got schooled in less than two minutes by one man with great technique. And Lesnar is no slouch- big time college wrestler and strong as a bull. One day he will be good- after he learns how to fight. Here’s that one- - YouTube
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I’m no mma fan, so I certainly didn’t catch all the little details, but I saw a very big, strong man beat the holy snot out of a smaller guy before the smaller guy won on some sort of leg lock on Lesnar.
I’m not going to debate this topic beyond this post (FI, I agree with you in general), but I don’t think this video helps your case. It certainly seemed to me that if that had been an open brawl rather than a closely officiated MMA bout, Lesnar would’ve reduced the smaller guy into a stain on the rug.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
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I’m not even going to get into the MMA scene. You want to see what happens to a bodybuilder when he steps in the Octagon? You did. It was called Brock Lesnar’s debut. That silver back gorilla got schooled in less than two minutes by one man with great technique. And Lesnar is no slouch- big time college wrestler and strong as a bull. One day he will be good- after he learns how to fight. Here’s that one- - YouTube
…
I’m no mma fan, so I certainly didn’t catch all the little details, but I saw a very big, strong man beat the holy snot out of a smaller guy before the smaller guy won on some sort of leg lock on Lesnar.
I’m not going to debate this topic beyond this post (FI, I agree with you in general), but I don’t think this video helps your case. It certainly seemed to me that if that had been an open brawl rather than a closely officiated MMA bout, Lesnar would’ve reduced the smaller guy into a stain on the rug.[/quote]
I hear you. I can’t debate that. You might be right. I’m not a big fan of the ground and pound theory that Lesnar likes so much, just because it takes a lot of punishment to knock a guy out like that. But that’s the rules in MMA… how it would go in the street, fuck man, who knows?
I only used that cause it was the first thing that came to mind, not to mention it was pretty recent.
By the way, I was very surprised that Lesnar got tapped out. My buddy, who a student of BJJ, wasn’t surprised at all. The rules truly do make the game sometimes, eh?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I hear you. I can’t debate that. You might be right. I’m not a big fan of the ground and pound theory that Lesnar likes so much, just because it takes a lot of punishment to knock a guy out like that. But that’s the rules in MMA… how it would go in the street, fuck man, who knows?
I only used that cause it was the first thing that came to mind, not to mention it was pretty recent.
By the way, I was very surprised that Lesnar got tapped out. My buddy, who a student of BJJ, wasn’t surprised at all. The rules truly do make the game sometimes, eh?[/quote]
That they do.
I also suppose it’s possible that that whole thing was just a feint by the little guy, to let Lesnar wear himself out and to find an opening for him to do his leg lock.
But I don’t know. I’m a football and basketball guy, and I’m not going to pretend that I know my ass from a hole in the ground w.r.t. to martial arts.
Why do these arguments always turn into “well, if the 120 pound paraplegic had a knife, a gun, and an electrified wheel chair with razor blade wheels, he’d totally beat a bigger, stronger guy.”
Look, there are three rules in a hand-to-hand fight:
The big guy wins
A smaller, weaker guy can win, if he’s a lot better than the big guy. See Royce Gracie v. Tank Abbot.
If the big guy is also skilled, the little guy loses again.
Take the five best fighters (could be boxing, MT, MMA, whatever) and put them in a cage with a silver back gorilla. Now tell them that they must fight to the death and only the last one living can leave.
The gorilla would fucking destroy each and every one of the fighters. It would be literally ripping people’s arms out of their sockets, smashing their heads together, biting huge chunks out of them, just annihilate them. And these are the best fighters in the world, they’ve got probably close to (if not more than) a centuries worth of fight experience and technique. The gorilla on the other hand has no technique, no fight experience, just pure attributes. Yet the gorilla is gonna be the one walking out of that cage.
Now, obviously no human being is ever going to reach the level of strength that a silver back gorilla is going to posses. But the moral of the story still holds true. Attributes often times win fights, so don’t discount the crazy strong, fast, and aggressive guy just because he hasn’t trained formally in the combative arts.
Oh yea that’s completely relevant. I’ve got a wookie who knows how to box that would throttle him.
Fucking seriously dude? You’re throwing in another species of animal to prove your point. Forget the fact that a silver back gorilla has a heavier bone structure, stronger muscles and tendons, and different lever points. Forget the fact that it’s a wild fucking animal. The argument is absolutely assinine from the start. So asinine I can’t believe that you thought stating it would make any sense at all, and be in any way relevant.
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Perhaps you missed the part where I said “obviously no human can achieve the level of strength that a gorilla will posses”? Perhaps you missed the moral of the story?
Attributes win a lot of fights, that’s all I was trying to get across. Using a gorilla is simply an extreme example of a fighter who is pure attributes. My instructor is literally so strong that he can basically just grab a hold of you and pretty much do whatever he wants to do to you. He is freakishly strong, blindingly fast and crazy aggressive. He pretty much doesn’t even need technique to win 99% of fights.
Now, like I said though, I’m not discounting the importance of technique. The fact that my instructor is a freaking beast and is an 8th degree black belt in Jiu-Jitsu, and a 5th degree black belt in American Kickboxing (under Joe Lewis), and a black belt in Ninjutsu, and a black belt in Pankration (and the list goes on), so he’s also got crazy amounts of skill if he needs it, makes him one scary dude.
A lot of (in fact most of) the champions in any combat sport (in any weight class) are champion because they have superior attributes than their competitors. It’s not necessarily because they’re technically the best fighter in that weight class.
Yeah, I’m not arguing that (though it would also depend on the situation, in an elevator coleman would likely fuck Pavlik up since he couldn’t use his superior mobility to stay away from Coleman). But, you take Coleman and have him train with a good striking coach and within a couple years he’d probably give Pavlik some serious problems (simply because of his superior attributes).
The irony in this statement is that all of the fighters that you mentioned (Pavlik, Tyson and Kimbo) have fantastic attributes and hit extremely hard. Tyson was a freaking beast and hit like a freight train. He knocked those guys out because he hit so hard (attributes). And that’s basically all that Kimbo has, attributes (same as Tank Abbot, who Kimbo just recently beat).
Footwork is indeed extremely important for stand up (especially sport combat), but inferior footwork doesn’t always mean you’ll lose.
Once again the situation must be taken into consideration. What if your back’s to the wall and you can’t go left or right? Footwork isn’t going to help you all that much. What if you’re in an enclosed area where “running” (and by running I mean the strategy of “hit and run”) isn’t possible? What if the big strong dude attacks you when you’re sitting or lying down? Now how much is footwork going to help you?
You’d call that “schooled”? It looked like Lesnar was winning that fight pretty decisively until he got caught is that knee bar. And had Yamasaki not stood them up, Mir would have likely got pounded out. Now, I’ll also admit that Lesnar should’ve spent more time training submissions and submission defense, knowing that this is Mir’s specialty. But for his first fight, against a former HW champ, I’d say that he did pretty well for himself.
Lesnar easily took Mir down, controlled him in side control, landed several unanswered hammer fists, got unjustly stood up and a point taken away from him and was beating Mir in the stand up area. I’d say he did pretty well for his UFC debut. Yes, he obviously didn’t train his Jiu-Jitsu enough. I saw the leg lock coming a mile away, and had Lesnar trained right he would have too. But had it been a real fight, it never would have come to that. Lesnar would have destroyed Mir. Heck that initial take down (had it been on concrete) probably would have ended the fight.
[quote]
Fact is, you want a fucking couch moved, call a bodybuilder. You want to brawl, you call a fighter. Anyone who says otherwise is absolutely delusional. [/quote]
I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise though. Just that size, strength, and other physical attributes can be just as important as knowing how to perform a gogoplata.
I agree with much of what you said. My point was that in any kind of fighting arena, you need to be severely trained to compete. I can’t argue that strength helps quite a bit, but maybe being a smaller guy I tend to focus on technique and speed in order to make up for the ME strength that I don’t have compared to a 215+ guy.
And as for your examples in the street- I wasn’t talking about the street so much. I agree with the scenarios and all that, and what X said was very true- luck has alot to do with it. In the streets, the bigger guy doesn’t always win, the guy with a beer bottle or knife or 20 friends does. Luck is the most important thing besides awareness when in public.
I agree with much of what you said. My point was that in any kind of fighting arena, you need to be severely trained to compete. I can’t argue that strength helps quite a bit, but maybe being a smaller guy I tend to focus on technique and speed in order to make up for the ME strength that I don’t have compared to a 215+ guy.
And as for your examples in the street- I wasn’t talking about the street so much. I agree with the scenarios and all that, and what X said was very true- luck has alot to do with it. In the streets, the bigger guy doesn’t always win, the guy with a beer bottle or knife or 20 friends does. Luck is the most important thing besides awareness when in public.[/quote]
I’d kick your ass so bad, you’ll forget to beat off you poster of Eli for 3 weeks.
I agree with much of what you said. My point was that in any kind of fighting arena, you need to be severely trained to compete. I can’t argue that strength helps quite a bit, but maybe being a smaller guy I tend to focus on technique and speed in order to make up for the ME strength that I don’t have compared to a 215+ guy.
And as for your examples in the street- I wasn’t talking about the street so much. I agree with the scenarios and all that, and what X said was very true- luck has alot to do with it. In the streets, the bigger guy doesn’t always win, the guy with a beer bottle or knife or 20 friends does. Luck is the most important thing besides awareness when in public.
I’d kick your ass so bad, you’ll forget to beat off you poster of Eli for 3 weeks.
I agree with much of what you said. My point was that in any kind of fighting arena, you need to be severely trained to compete. I can’t argue that strength helps quite a bit, but maybe being a smaller guy I tend to focus on technique and speed in order to make up for the ME strength that I don’t have compared to a 215+ guy.
And as for your examples in the street- I wasn’t talking about the street so much. I agree with the scenarios and all that, and what X said was very true- luck has alot to do with it. In the streets, the bigger guy doesn’t always win, the guy with a beer bottle or knife or 20 friends does. Luck is the most important thing besides awareness when in public.
I’d kick your ass so bad, you’ll forget to beat off you poster of Eli for 3 weeks.
And I’m an old man.
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Listen here hillbilly, any time you want to tangle you let me know. You’ll look like a tornado hit your trailer park.
[quote]thomas.galvin wrote:
Why do these arguments always turn into “well, if the 120 pound paraplegic had a knife, a gun, and an electrified wheel chair with razor blade wheels, he’d totally beat a bigger, stronger guy.”
Look, there are three rules in a hand-to-hand fight:
The big guy wins
A smaller, weaker guy can win, if he’s a lot better than the big guy. See Royce Gracie v. Tank Abbot.
If the big guy is also skilled, the little guy loses again.[/quote]
Good points, but you’re forgetting that excess muscle makes you slow and immobile. That, and if you’ve built a powerful physique, you surely must have no time to train in the basics of fighting.
In Ernesto’s defense, he was well into his 40’s…def. 15 years past his prime. Nice leg kicks, though, and the liver shot was A+. He made the mistake of not moving and standing and trading punches…I’m just surprised he made it twice.
Peter Aerts, however, took out Sapp with a single knee, soo…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
triple-10sets wrote:
Kalle wrote:
Gerard Benderoth Pro Strongman competitor showing that 300+lbs doesn’t feel good connecting.
Beutiful vid man. That guy Gerard is a SILVER BACK GORILLA !!!
I think we have a new saying on T-Nation…[/quote]
Gerad has a boxing background as well.
I’m not saying strength athletes/bodybuilders are indestructible just that if you can deadlift 800lbs put 350+ over your head and have some training you can probably fight pretty good.
On the same subject, Tom McClure ASC Pro Strongman 6’3 340+ recently started training MMA.
[quote]jenemmar wrote:
Kliplemet wrote:
Bob sapp beat this guy twice. never underestimate superhuman size and strength.
In Ernesto’s defense, he was well into his 40’s…def. 15 years past his prime. Nice leg kicks, though, and the liver shot was A+. He made the mistake of not moving and standing and trading punches…I’m just surprised he made it twice.
Peter Aerts, however, took out Sapp with a single knee, soo…
[/quote]
I’m really responding to klip jen not you, just didn’t feel like going all the way back to quote.
All your proving is that different sports require training specifically for those sports. Technically bob sapp won both of them, but at least one of them if it was a street fight ernesto would’ve won. If you can’t hold yourself up, and the other guy is fine then you lossed. As he gave up his next fight to let ernesto do it because he couldn’t fight anymore.
