Bodybuilders Are Pansies

Off Topic
101

[quote]Bob760 wrote:
Bodybuilder vs avg joe

yeah but avg joe (me) is more likely to pack a gun
[/quote]

Not necessarily, many pretty big guys I knew carried guns for self defense.

I’ve read a lot of sort of half this and this about guns so far here.

  1. If you are trained in self defense with a gun, most experts recommend you carry it whenever possible. It isn’t a fear thing or inadequacy, it’s a trained response thing.

If a gunfight was to happen, it happens quick and you don’t want to grab for a gun that isn’t there.

  1. Most people, at least the people I know who are trained to carry a gun have a high degree of situational awareness. This will allow them more time to react than you would normally have. and react doesn’t always mean shoot, it could mean duck, get out of there, take cover or whatever.

Even the fictional Bob Lee Swagger doesn’t have enough time if he’s not paying attention, but us Bob Lee Swagger readers knows he always pays attention.

  1. Many martial artists carry guns and many gun guys know martial arts to some degree. Many big guys carry guns, as they often know some martial arts.

A well trained person always tries to avoid a confrontation for many reasons, one is this gun or this might be Bruce Lee’s reincarnation thing. It’s just not worth the trouble physical wise or legal wise. It’s to keep you alive wise.

102

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
austin_bicep wrote:
With a no rules street fight i’m sure the majority of the bodybuilders on the olympia stage could beat the fuck out of most people. Don’t get me started on powerlifters such as Ryan Kennelly, i’d love to see kimbo slice try to beathis ass.

Really? You’re really saying that a strong man (very strong, sure, but that’s all he is) would have any chance against a man who is trained in traditional boxing, has been streetfighting and bareknuckle boxing for years for money, and is now working his ground game with Bas Rutten?

You are a fucking loon. One minute max before your powerlifter is knocked out. If it goes to the ground, he’ll be lucky to ever enter another powerlifting comp. again.

This could be the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen on these forums, ever.[/quote]

True, fighting is tough business and most don’t have a clue about it.

103

Who cares really? The ring, the street it all comes down to luck. Mr. Punyverse, all 6’3 120 lbs of him could just wildly swing his fist and catch Mr. Iamaprofighter right on the button. Don’t underestimate luck.

I don’t even know why I come into these threads. I guess it proves my theory most guys are very insecure. Anyway go pick a fight with some bodybuilder to boost your ego it won’t make your dick bigger. Oh be prepared for a lawsuit too, nothing like the thrill of punching out some dude and he sues you for an amount of money that you will spend the rest of your life trying to pay off. Goodluck getting anywhere in life with a couple hundred thousand dollars of debt hanging over your head.

104

One thing I have not seen mentioned is tolerance to pain. Bodybuilders endure a great deal of pain in order to reach their goals and this is very important in a fight.

I’m not saying MMA fighters don’t endure pain also, but your average Joe is not going to experience the same daily pain as a bodybuilder.

Another thing is neck musculature. One of the best defenses against knockouts is a stout neck.

I once saw this huge guy (think Jaws in moonraker, but with no neck)take a roundhouse to the side of the head with a motorcycle helmet held by the straps. He just shook his head and proceeded to stomp the other guys ass.

105

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Bob760 wrote:
I can legally carry a gun because i went though a class that had a police officer as an instructor and went through various scenarios and training

Did he mention what to do if you shot yourself?[/quote]

Thanks. That’s exactly what I thought of.

106

A built guy has an advantage in strength, what I’m saying tho, is alot of BIG guys, aren’t as strong as they are big.

No this isn’t bodybuilder hate.

It’s just genetics, alot of big guys have very powerful frames, and a good muscular strength, but their muscular strength is not necessarily superior to a man of a smaller frame with the same or better muscular strength.

Think Franco Columbu, a smaller guy with strength that far exceeded many of his contemporaries of larger frame.

Anyone who has been on a wrestling team can see this.

The 150 lbish guys, aren’t that much weaker than the 170lbish guys, that isn’t always the case.

But alot of the times the bigger the guys get are sloppier physically.

Andrei Arlovski, is a built bigman, who can move like an 160lb guy, you can see in his genetics that he is not like a typical bigman he is a freak.

Then there are alot of big guys, actually the majority who are like Tim Sylvia or Paul Buentello, who are genetically big and prolly kind strong, but suck ass because they are goofy and sloppily built.

Alot of big guys fit in to that category.

I mean when we say BIG guys I’m thinking about big frame. Big looking, alot of times carrying some extra pounds.

That’s how I consider it, the lapsed football player who can “bench like 300 lbs” but also weighs liken 200 something and couldn’t do bodyweight manuevers to save his life.

These guys comprise the majority of men who like to throw their weight around, and they are not at a particular advantage over a smaller man.

My brother used to lift with his friend cam who was in the army with him, my brother is a big guy, prolly about 250lbs, Cam couldn’t put on weight to save his life, stayed around 180ish.

Cam had my brother creamed on the benchpress, he had a much stronger bencht han he did. My brother, had a height and size advantage.

The big is not always stronger, and will not always win the fight.

107

[quote]mr_slick wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
mr_slick wrote:
…And then there are guys that have both of best worlds,Kevin Randleman and Mirko Crocop. (Crocop can easily be a bodybuilder from his V-Taper physique)

Some “big guys” also have extensive martial arts training. Not on a par with MMA pros obviously, but certainly enough to destroy 99% of the population in a fight combined with their size. Marius Pudzianowski, Stan McQuay and Dexter Jackson off the top of my head, plus a lot of the big guys in my gym.

These are guys Id consider “Elite” Big,Strong,and knows how to kick your ass by brute strength or technique wise. Not to long ago,I found out Dolph Lundgren is not only a bodybuilder but a black belt in Kyokushin Karate.[/quote]

No offense but Crocop’s days of fighting amongst the elite are over. I would put Lidell in that category as well.

108

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
Bob sapp beat this guy twice. never underestimate superhuman size and strength.

- YouTube [/quote]

Yes. And this guy took every blow Bob Sapp had to offer and made him cry publicly.

109

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Take the five best fighters (could be boxing, MT, MMA, whatever) and put them in a cage with a silver back gorilla. Now tell them that they must fight to the death and only the last one living can leave.

The gorilla would fucking destroy each and every one of the fighters. It would be literally ripping people’s arms out of their sockets, smashing their heads together, biting huge chunks out of them, just annihilate them. And these are the best fighters in the world, they’ve got probably close to (if not more than) a centuries worth of fight experience and technique. The gorilla on the other hand has no technique, no fight experience, just pure attributes. Yet the gorilla is gonna be the one walking out of that cage.

Now, obviously no human being is ever going to reach the level of strength that a silver back gorilla is going to posses. But the moral of the story still holds true. Attributes often times win fights, so don’t discount the crazy strong, fast, and aggressive guy just because he hasn’t trained formally in the combative arts. [/quote]

Oh yea that’s completely relevant. I’ve got a wookie who knows how to box that would throttle him.

Fucking seriously dude? You’re throwing in another species of animal to prove your point. Forget the fact that a silver back gorilla has a heavier bone structure, stronger muscles and tendons, and different lever points. Forget the fact that it’s a wild fucking animal. The argument is absolutely assinine from the start. So asinine I can’t believe that you thought stating it would make any sense at all, and be in any way relevant.

No fellas, you’re wrong. If you take an average boxer and put him up against an average bodybuilder, the bodybuilder gets murdered. If you take Ronnie Coleman and put him in the ring with Kelly Pavlik, I’ll take Pavlik giving away 130 lbs. (when Coleman is in contest shape). I’m being nice by putting him with a professional who is three inches taller and fights at Super middleweight- forget putting Coleman in there with an actual heavyweight- Klitchsho lays Coleman up in the hospital for weeks.

Hell, Pavlik himself laid out a bouncer a few years ago and got arrested for it. Tyson knocked out three guys in a casino a few years back. These fucking guys are fighters, not just weightlifters. You want to see what happens when an untrained guy squares off with a boxer? Watch Kimbo’s fights, he lines up and knocks down tons of thugs. They’re all on youtube. Here- - YouTube

It has nothing to do with pure strength- all of fighting starts with footwork. That’s how RJJ can knock down Trinidad with a stiff jab, and how Marciano had enough power to move a thousand pounds a foot off the ground with his right hand. If you’ve got no fuckin footwork, you’ve got no fight. No goddamn bodybuilder has footwork worth a shit, and so they will lose.

I’m not even going to get into the MMA scene. You want to see what happens to a bodybuilder when he steps in the Octagon? You did. It was called Brock Lesnar’s debut. That silver back gorilla got schooled in less than two minutes by one man with great technique. And Lesnar is no slouch- big time college wrestler and strong as a bull. One day he will be good- after he learns how to fight. Here’s that one- - YouTube

Lesnar fights like a brute, but takes the side mount because wrestlers love doing that. Mir waits, waits, lets Lesnar fight like a cretin, and then schools him, and Lesnar doesn’t even know what’s happening.

Fact is, you want a fucking couch moved, call a bodybuilder. You want to brawl, you call a fighter. Anyone who says otherwise is absolutely delusional.

110

I just want to check, is everyone that walks the streets today a trained fighter in some discipline?

111

[quote]Scott M wrote:
I just want to check, is everyone that walks the streets today a trained fighter in some discipline? [/quote]

Hell yeah baby, I’m a 9th degree dan in Rex Kwon Do…now grab my wrist…no no no, my other wrist

112

[quote]Scott M wrote:
I just want to check, is everyone that walks the streets today a trained fighter in some discipline? [/quote]

These days buying an $80 dollar Afflicition shirt is all that is required to be considered a fighter.

113

So can we safely say that the average person and the average bodybuilder are equally as likely to be skilled in some sort of fighting, and equally as likely NOT to be skilled in either. And then let the discussion/idiot fest carry on from there?

114

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Lesnar fights like a brute, but takes the side mount because wrestlers love doing that. Mir waits, waits, lets Lesnar fight like a cretin, and then schools him, and Lesnar doesn’t even know what’s happening.
[/quote]

No one is arguing that skill is not important in fighting. If they are, they are fucking retarded. But there is a middle ground here, like everything else. Being big and strong is a huge fucking asset, just like having skills are, and both have to be taken into account. Brock Lesnar trained for a little over a year, Frank Mir has trained for 10+, and Lesnar pounded the shit out of him. Take away the stand up, and if it was on the street, Frank Mir would have lost.

If size wasn’t important, there would not be no need for weight classes. We would have had George Foreman vs Roberto Duran for the boxing title. I imagine that would have went well.

115

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Lesnar fights like a brute, but takes the side mount because wrestlers love doing that. Mir waits, waits, lets Lesnar fight like a cretin, and then schools him, and Lesnar doesn’t even know what’s happening.

No one is arguing that skill is not important in fighting. If they are, they are fucking retarded. But there is a middle ground here, like everything else. Being big and strong is a huge fucking asset, just like having skills are, and both have to be taken into account. Brock Lesnar trained for a little over a year, Frank Mir has trained for 10+, and Lesnar pounded the shit out of him. Take away the stand up, and if it was on the street, Frank Mir would have lost.

If size wasn’t important, there would not be no need for weight classes. We would have had George Foreman vs Roberto Duran for the boxing title. I imagine that would have went well.[/quote]

No, I hear you. But people around here make it seem like size and max effort strength are the most important factors. I am simply saying that bodybuilding and fighting are two absolutely, completely different things, and being good in one means that, honestly, you’re going to suck at the other because they both take so much time to become good at.

As far as trained people go, of course, it’s a different story. Hence the boxing weight classes, MMA classes, etc.

116

[quote]Donut62 wrote:

If size wasn’t important, there would not be no need for weight classes. We would have had George Foreman vs Roberto Duran for the boxing title. I imagine that would have went well.[/quote]

Thank you. Everyone keeps trying to compare apples to oranges here. Of course a trained fighter would have the advantage of the regular joe bodybuilder. Why don’t we look at guys who are either both trained or both untrained and then use some common sense like donut62 here uses and realizes that weight classes exist for a reason.

I can’t post in this thread anymore I’m going crazy haha.

117

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Donut62 wrote:

If size wasn’t important, there would not be no need for weight classes. We would have had George Foreman vs Roberto Duran for the boxing title. I imagine that would have went well.

Thank you. Everyone keeps trying to compare apples to oranges here. Of course a trained fighter would have the advantage of the regular joe bodybuilder. Why don’t we look at guys who are either both trained or both untrained and then use some common sense like donut62 here uses and realizes that weight classes exist for a reason.

I can’t post in this thread anymore I’m going crazy haha. [/quote]

No reason to go crazy. This thread should have ended a few pages ago.

Strength and size alone do matter and play a HUGE role in how well you can take someone else down.

For anyone to deny that is just retarded.

Skill and ability play a huge factor as well.

This is also undeniable.

However, you would be dumb as all hell to assume some guy who has spent years working on size and strength has put absolutely zero time into any sort of training for self defense over the years or has no natural ability in that area. That means, as much as it may hurt those who walk around like MMA wannabes all day long, that huge guy who is in shape and is that much bigger and stronger than you will probably not go down easy if he goes down at all.

Why does that bruise egos?

Giant muscles usually are not weak so why do people seem to think otherwise? Like strength isn’t a great asset? Please.

If you truly want to be the best fighter, hopefully you will have strength, size and skill on your side and not just two out of three.

Weight classes exist for a reason and that reason is NOT because small lifters have so much skill that they will kill everyone bigger than them.

118

[quote]Professor X wrote:

However, you would be dumb as all hell to assume some guy who has spent years working on size and strength has put absolutely zero time into any sort of training for self defense over the years or has no natural ability in that area. That means, as much as it may hurt those who walk around like MMA wannabes all day long, that huge guy who is in shape and is that much bigger and stronger than you will probably not go down easy if he goes down at all.
[/quote]

I think this is more individual stuff. Some guys will train and pick things up, others won’t. I’m not sure.

I agree with the inherent ability, however- as in the Lesnar example, I believe that after a few years of training, he will be a force to reckoned with… if anyone has massive genetic potential, it’s him. I hope it goes better than his NFL debut, though.

[quote]
Giant muscles usually are not weak so why do people seem to think otherwise? Like strength isn’t a great asset? Please.

If you truly want to be the best fighter, hopefully you will have strength, size and skill on your side and not just two out of three.

Weight classes exist for a reason and that reason is NOT because small lifters have so much skill that they will kill everyone bigger than them.[/quote]

Hey, I’m not saying that large, strong muscles don’t help. If they didn’t, I doubt I’d continue lifting like I do in their pursuit. As I stated before though, from my personal experience, technique holds precedence, and so if you have to train one more than the other, I’d train technique. It sucks because of how much I enjoy lifting, but often I sacrifice that before I sacrifice actual skill training.

I agree, there is a middle ground. But sometimes these threads go so far out of hand and I get pissed to the point that I forget about that middle ground in order to prove a point. It is fiery blood that does that to us.

119

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

Hey, I’m not saying that large, strong muscles don’t help. If they didn’t, I doubt I’d continue lifting like I do in their pursuit. As I stated before though, from my personal experience, technique holds precedence, and so if you have to train one more than the other, I’d train technique. It sucks because of how much I enjoy lifting, but often I sacrifice that before I sacrifice actual skill training.

I agree, there is a middle ground. But sometimes these threads go so far out of hand and I get pissed to the point that I forget about that middle ground in order to prove a point. It is fiery blood that does that to us.

[/quote]

That middle ground is the issue, however. The most intimidating fighter I’ve ever met personally was a 230lbs guy at only 5’10" who was about to go to college on football scholarship who just happened to be a black belt. I sparred with him twice and both times it felt like fighting a fucking bull. I only weighed about 240lbs at the time so we were about equal in size. If you had seen this guy on the street you would think he was either into football or bodybuilding. You would not think he was a black belt who could take your head off.

I personally don’t know any guys who get “BIG” that are so weakly supported that they would simply curl up like a school girl if attacked. Most guys like that are pretty damn aggressive in the first place. If the attitude is truly that large muscles mean you can’t fight, the only conclusion is that small guys make this up so they can feel better about themselves. Otherwise, there would be no need to act as if all of those years of weight lifting mean nothing at all as far as handling another person.

I respect fighting of all disciplines. I also acknowledge how important skill is. When it comes to real “street” fighting though, size, strength, LUCK and minor skill are all that is needed in most fights unless the person you are fighting is competition level.

120

[quote]Professor X wrote:

That middle ground is the issue, however. The most intimidating fighter I’ve ever met personally was a 230lbs guy at only 5’10" who was about to go to college on football scholarship who just happened to be a black belt. I sparred with him twice and both times it felt like fighting a fucking bull. I only weighed about 240lbs at the time so we were about equal in size. If you had seen this guy on the street you would think he was either into football or bodybuilding. You would not think he was a black belt who could take your head off.
[/quote]

I absolutely agree that the most dangerous thing on two legs is a very large, very strong, well trained man. That’s why heavyweights will always be the main draw in boxing, and the HW champion of the world is always king.

Large muscles DO NOT mean that you can’t fight. I am one of the people that believes that boxers and fighters of all kinds should always be weightlifting, always be looking to add size and strength- I’m not one of the old school guys who believes that pushups and situps are enough.

However, the amount of time that one must dedicate to become truly proficient in a fighting art is monstrous. Fighting and bodybuilding, unless you are blessed with excellent genetics, are not exclusive. Weightlifting and taking a fighting art can be, but not so much bodybuilding.

What I know here is from my own experience. I work full time at a metalshop and take 2 Okinawan gojuryu classes a week. Most weeks, I also train in MMA once a week, which can be anything from heavy bag/target mits/other striking things to grappling for an hour.

I also try to mix in three full body workouts a week, using Waterbury’s TTT as a template. I don’t think I’ve progressed as quickly in Gojuryu as I could have because I refuse to go three times a week on account that I will not give up lifting because I believe in it’s merit in regards to fighting (no one counts classes, but obviously the more practice you get, the quicker you progress.)

I am barely able to do it all. My body cannot handle the recovery many times, and I do sacrifice lifting, much to my chagrin. Maybe others can do it, but I have a hell of a time. I know not everyone is like me, but my point is that the two are so time consuming that it’s hard to do both. Hence why I say that if a guy is bodybuilder huge, he has likely devoted much of his time to that. If a fighter is going to step in the ring soon, then it’s likely that he’s working on explosive strength and skill work far too much to be able to gain much size.

If a man can go to the gym and lift four or five days a week, train in any kind of martial art twice or more, and hold down a full time job, my hat is off to him, because that’s fuckin tough.

Probably why neither pro-bodybuilders or pro- fighters have real jobs. Lucky fuckers.

[quote]
I respect fighting of all disciplines. I also acknowledge how important skill is. When it comes to real “street” fighting though, size, strength, LUCK and minor skill are all that is needed in most fights unless the person you are fighting is competition level.[/quote]

To me, luck has always been most important. And for the average person, yea, they’re going to get by fine on what you’ve said.