Body Fat and Heart Disease

Training
641

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).

642

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall.

643

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

So if I do cardio and consume a clean diet while gaining to 24% body fat it seems that you would also think that the increased health risks may not be as significant as some one who gained to 24% eating KFC double Down Sandwiches. I would agree 100%.

644

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]gswork wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Steering things back on topic for a bit.

What can be done during a bulking/surplus/gaining phase to minimize future risk of heart disease?[/quote]
what the evidence suggests is don’t get obese, eat healthy foods and stay active (ie lifestyle factors)[/quote]

While I agree with your general suggestion, there has been no evidence posted to support it.

None of those studies investigated people who train 5-6 days a week with intensity and maintain moderate cardio, while in a caloric surplus and reaching overweight or obese body fat levels, none of them measured the amount of visceral fat gain created under such conditions. Reason being it would most likely be very hard for people to achieve obese body fat percentage while doing such. In addition, you cannot take 5 different articles with 5 different control groups and using the findings of all to draw generalized conclusions about an issue. Well you can, but you shouldn’t and it is not sound scientific method.

(Seriously one was based on the diet of fat Korean males? what the fuck kind of diet do they even have? Tone is joking on this) [/quote]

Did you miss the study that was done on college football players?

645

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall. [/quote]

Seems like you could do some observational studies on that. Go to a pro sport that has fat/athletic people. Are the rates of heart disease different for an NFL lineman than a regular Joe that size? What is the different in rates between a lineman and a linebacker or skill position?

I’m willing to bet it’s a combination. It’s my understanding that linemen have grossly higher rates of heart disease (and death) than other positions (I think I read somewhere it’s like twice the rate). All being strong, athletic, and highly trained. Though I’d have to dig because much of the death/diagnosis would come after retirement and could skew things.

646

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]gswork wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
Steering things back on topic for a bit.

What can be done during a bulking/surplus/gaining phase to minimize future risk of heart disease?[/quote]
what the evidence suggests is don’t get obese, eat healthy foods and stay active (ie lifestyle factors)[/quote]

While I agree with your general suggestion, there has been no evidence posted to support it.

None of those studies investigated people who train 5-6 days a week with intensity and maintain moderate cardio, while in a caloric surplus and reaching overweight or obese body fat levels, none of them measured the amount of visceral fat gain created under such conditions. Reason being it would most likely be very hard for people to achieve obese body fat percentage while doing such. In addition, you cannot take 5 different articles with 5 different control groups and using the findings of all to draw generalized conclusions about an issue. Well you can, but you shouldn’t and it is not sound scientific method.

(Seriously one was based on the diet of fat Korean males? what the fuck kind of diet do they even have? Tone is joking on this) [/quote]

Did you miss the study that was done on college football players?
[/quote]
I didn’t… I am sure you understand given the state of this thread.

647

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall. [/quote]

Seems like you could do some observational studies on that. Go to a pro sport that has fat/athletic people. Are the rates of heart disease different for an NFL lineman than a regular Joe that size? What is the different in rates between a lineman and a linebacker or skill position?

I’m willing to bet it’s a combination. It’s my understanding that linemen have grossly higher rates of heart disease (and death) than other positions (I think I read somewhere it’s like twice the rate). All being strong, athletic, and highly trained. Though I’d have to dig because much of the death/diagnosis would come after retirement and could skew things.
[/quote]
But look at the life style of line men, add in other factors like PED’s many of which have negative effects on Cardiac Markers. pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating, ect… I don’t consider myself average so I don’t know maybe it’s a level playing field, but I wouldn’t suggest looking at the linemen positive heath behaviors without considering how outta the norm their other lifestyle choices might be.

648

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall. [/quote]

Seems like you could do some observational studies on that. Go to a pro sport that has fat/athletic people. Are the rates of heart disease different for an NFL lineman than a regular Joe that size? What is the different in rates between a lineman and a linebacker or skill position?

I’m willing to bet it’s a combination. It’s my understanding that linemen have grossly higher rates of heart disease (and death) than other positions (I think I read somewhere it’s like twice the rate). All being strong, athletic, and highly trained. Though I’d have to dig because much of the death/diagnosis would come after retirement and could skew things.
[/quote]
But look at the life style of line men, add in other factors like PED’s many of which have negative effects on Cardiac Markers. pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating, ect… I don’t consider myself average so I don’t know maybe it’s a level playing field, but I wouldn’t suggest looking at the linemen positive heath behaviors without considering how outta the norm their other lifestyle choices might be. [/quote]

PEDs “pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating” and guys getting huge don’t do any of that?

649

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall. [/quote]

Seems like you could do some observational studies on that. Go to a pro sport that has fat/athletic people. Are the rates of heart disease different for an NFL lineman than a regular Joe that size? What is the different in rates between a lineman and a linebacker or skill position?

I’m willing to bet it’s a combination. It’s my understanding that linemen have grossly higher rates of heart disease (and death) than other positions (I think I read somewhere it’s like twice the rate). All being strong, athletic, and highly trained. Though I’d have to dig because much of the death/diagnosis would come after retirement and could skew things.
[/quote]
But look at the life style of line men, add in other factors like PED’s many of which have negative effects on Cardiac Markers. pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating, ect… I don’t consider myself average so I don’t know maybe it’s a level playing field, but I wouldn’t suggest looking at the linemen positive heath behaviors without considering how outta the norm their other lifestyle choices might be. [/quote]

PEDs “pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating” and guys getting huge don’t do any of that?[/quote]

I don’t drink. I didn’t use drugs to achieve a 405lb bench, and I tried to not add in “bad” Eating but did have to after 240lbs to keep gaining weight.

but yeah lets focus on the body fat being the health issue because they wont have to change any of those bad habits (which don’t compound health risks) to improve their cardiac risk factors right?

You guys are exhausting…

650

I think I am going to just start ignoring anyone with over 5000 posts…

651

So is this thread really about leaner PED users entertaining some fantasy that they are more healthy then lifters who are at higher body fat and or higher fat levels and using PED’s?

652

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
here’s the reality, obese people who start working out and performing cardio without positive diet changes still see positive health results and it doesn’t require drastic reductions in body fat%. [/quote]

To play devils advocate a bit. These studies don’t apply perfectly either. What an obese person trying to get healthy does in the gym <> what a serious trainer does. There are a ton of powerlifters out there doing no real cardio including what goes on under the barbel (low reps). While cardio is mostly what fat people would be doing even when “weightlifting”.

You are also ignoring the dietary changes they are most likely making and their impact outside of weight.

Lastly, while there can be improvement just from training, but that isn’t evidence there is no additional benefit from also losing fat (or detriment to gaining it).[/quote]

I am not trying to be difficult for the sake of being difficult, really I am not. I understand your points and am not necessarily advocating major fat gain as the best method for gaining muscle.

However to assume that there are immediate or increased long term cardiac health issues for people who do utilize this method is yet to be looked at, and until it is, to conclude or try and say that these things are most likely is not appropriate. I don’t believe they would be at anywhere near comparable rates to obese sedentary people and that the increases would be insignificant overall. [/quote]

Seems like you could do some observational studies on that. Go to a pro sport that has fat/athletic people. Are the rates of heart disease different for an NFL lineman than a regular Joe that size? What is the different in rates between a lineman and a linebacker or skill position?

I’m willing to bet it’s a combination. It’s my understanding that linemen have grossly higher rates of heart disease (and death) than other positions (I think I read somewhere it’s like twice the rate). All being strong, athletic, and highly trained. Though I’d have to dig because much of the death/diagnosis would come after retirement and could skew things.
[/quote]
But look at the life style of line men, add in other factors like PED’s many of which have negative effects on Cardiac Markers. pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating, ect… I don’t consider myself average so I don’t know maybe it’s a level playing field, but I wouldn’t suggest looking at the linemen positive heath behaviors without considering how outta the norm their other lifestyle choices might be. [/quote]

PEDs “pain killers, Boozing, and bad eating” and guys getting huge don’t do any of that?[/quote]

I don’t drink. I didn’t use drugs to achieve a 405lb bench, and I tried to not add in “bad” Eating but did have to after 240lbs to keep gaining weight.

but yeah lets focus on the body fat being the health issue because they wont have to change any of those bad habits (which don’t compound health risks) to improve their cardiac risk factors right?

You guys are exhausting…[/quote]

And some linemen eat clean and don’t take drugs. And you are ignoring the fact that I was comparing them to other NFL players who probably have much the same lifestyle.

And to answer your question, yes, probably. It wouldn’t be minimization of risk though, but I never claimed as such. I’m not arguing for ignoring other things. You seem to be arguing for ignoring the fat part though.

Anxiety/depression/stress/loneliness/low self-esteem can all play a role and all tie into the discussion and can all be effected by self image. And I know it sounds goofy but there are plenty of people in the gym bulking themselves into hating how they look (looks in the mirror).

653

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
So is this thread really about leaner PED users entertaining some fantasy that they are more healthy then lifters who are at higher body fat and or higher fat levels and using PED’s? [/quote]

FYI I don’t use and never have.

654

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And some linemen eat clean and don’t take drugs. And you are ignoring the fact that I was comparing them to other NFL players who probably have much the same lifestyle.[/quote]

It seems you still want to take those findings and apply them to the general lifting public.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And to answer your question, yes, probably. It wouldn’t be minimization of risk though, but I never claimed as such. I’m not arguing for ignoring other things. You seem to be arguing for ignoring the fat part though.[/quote]

The fat thing % in and of it’s self is not the only or possible greatest contributing factor(based on study about visceral fat storage), especially when looking at NFL players IMO. In addition I have never seen anyone tell someone take a bunch of PED’s and Eat like shit to achieve your physique goals. So why are we even talking about this now? The reason i am talking about it is it was not in the controll of the studies… hence I would not jump to conclusions about other groups who may or may not share those behaviors.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Anxiety/depression/stress/loneliness/low self-esteem can all play a role and all tie into the discussion and can all be effected by self image. And I know it sounds goofy but there are plenty of people in the gym bulking themselves into hating how they look (looks in the mirror).[/quote]

Acknowledging that for a Natural non PED’s user to achieve a substantial amount of mass may require some fat gain in the 15-24% range is not shocking or an astounding revelation. Can it be done without that fat gain? I am sure it can. Is one right and wrong? better or worse? I am saying it depends… Is it a temporary gain? are you walking around at 24% for 20 yrs calling yourself a BB? These things matter in deciding if there is a risk. In addition knowing how your own fat is distributed, viscerally or sub Q, is of value in making that decision. That is what can be concluded.

655

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
So is this thread really about leaner PED users entertaining some fantasy that they are more healthy then lifters who are at higher body fat and or higher fat levels and using PED’s? [/quote]

FYI I don’t use and never have.[/quote]

I am sure none of the lean guys on here saying 24% is super unhealthy use them either…

I was joking

656

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And some linemen eat clean and don’t take drugs. And you are ignoring the fact that I was comparing them to other NFL players who probably have much the same lifestyle.[/quote]

It seems you still want to take those findings and apply them to the general lifting public.

[/quote]As good as fat guys doing cardio applied to serious trainers.[quote]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And to answer your question, yes, probably. It wouldn’t be minimization of risk though, but I never claimed as such. I’m not arguing for ignoring other things. You seem to be arguing for ignoring the fat part though.[/quote]

The fat thing % in and of it’s self is not the only or possible greatest contributing factor(based on study about visceral fat storage), especially when looking at NFL players IMO. In addition I have never seen anyone tell someone take a bunch of PED’s and Eat like shit to achieve your physique goals. So why are we even talking about this now? The reason i am talking about it is it was not in the controll of the studies… hence I would not jump to conclusions about other groups who may or may not share those behaviors.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Anxiety/depression/stress/loneliness/low self-esteem can all play a role and all tie into the discussion and can all be effected by self image. And I know it sounds goofy but there are plenty of people in the gym bulking themselves into hating how they look (looks in the mirror).[/quote]

Acknowledging that for a Natural non PED’s user to achieve a substantial amount of mass may require some fat gain in the 15-24% range is not shocking or an astounding revelation. Can it be done without that fat gain? I am sure it can. Is one right and wrong? better or worse? I am saying it depends… Is it a temporary gain? are you walking around at 24% for 20 yrs calling yourself a BB? These things matter in deciding if there is a risk. In addition knowing how your own fat is distributed, viscerally or sub Q, is of value in making that decision. That is what can be concluded.
[/quote]

I agree, risk/reward decisions are always individual. Not saying anything is wrong or right. And there are assuredly a lot of other factors that play into an educated decision.

I’ve got a hurt back and a family history of heart disease, so the eat big and lift big thing ain’t going real well for me right now.

657

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
So is this thread really about leaner PED users entertaining some fantasy that they are more healthy then lifters who are at higher body fat and or higher fat levels and using PED’s? [/quote]

FYI I don’t use and never have.[/quote]

I am sure none of the lean guys on here saying 24% is super unhealthy use them either…

I was joking[/quote]

Me too. I take the createenz.

658

So Blake, are you really saying that being overweight due to excess bodyfat ISN’T a risk factor for CVD?
I’m sorry that there aren’t studies done on weightlifters who don’t drink, eat junk food, party or take PED’s.
Do you really expect to find such a study?
I mean the study done On High school and college football players wasnt enough.

Virtually every study that has been posted has shown that an increased body fat % puts someone at an increased risk for CVD.

Study’s done on everything from high school/college football players to overweight sedentary Koreans.
They have all, as far as I have seen, have showed that overweight (not obese) people have higher risks for CVD but since the studies weren’t done on the exact focus group that you’re looking for then they aren’t legit?

Come on.
Do you really expect different results for chubby gym rats?

659

Just so my position is crystal clear. I think the only thing that can be concluded at the end of this whole thread is that if you are carrying much more then 15% body fat, you should have a DR look at how that fat is distributed and decide if you are truly at increase for cardiac health issues. For anyone individual it is true that having lower body fat would indicate better health, but you cannot look at 2 separate people and based solely on body fat conclude the one with lower body fat is significantly less at risk or significantly more healthy in terns of cardiac heath.

660

[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
Just so my position is crystal clear. I think the only thing that can be concluded at the end of this whole thread is that if you are carrying much more then 15% body fat, you should have a DR look at how that fat is distributed and decide if you are truly at increase for cardiac health issues. For anyone individual it is true that having lower body fat would indicate better health, but you cannot look at 2 separate people and based solely on body fat conclude the one with lower body fat is significantly less at risk or significantly more healthy in terns of cardiac heath. [/quote]
I agree with this and no one has claimed anything contrary to this as fat as I can remember?

That’s why the examples I have seen were hypothetically using the same person at different bodyfat percentages.