BJJ Technical Questions

Training
81

Thanks guys, I’ll try these tonite and let you know how it goes. I like the sit and pry. Taking Xen’s post into account, I’m wondering how you all feel about making mistakes when you know the other person can’t use them.

For example, sit and pry opens me up for toe holds, but as a white belt in a gi match, they can’t use it. So do I use it? The same thing goes with crossing ankles when you have someone’s back, my ankles are vunerable, but off limits. Do you cross and be aware that it’s not quite right, or is it just creating bad muscle memory?

82

depends how far you intend on going in grappling and what competitions you intend on competing in. I wouldn’t train guard work if I’m a wrestler. Likewise if you intending on eventually competing in events that may utilize leg submissions I’d do my best to eliminate inefficient techniques now.

83

Alright I tried writing this but it was getting confusing, ‘1’ refers to the leg that is running across your back ‘2’ refers to the leg that comes over the top of leg 1.

One aspect that is often overlooked regarding the triangle is the leg running parallel to your upper body rather than the one perpindicular across your back. Everyone focuses on that leg across your back and generally postures up while pulling down on that knee of that leg.

It’s a good avenue to escape and one that I use often as well, but another option to keep in mind is to pinch the elbow on the side of leg 2, preventing it from getting a good lock. this will help to create space as you go for a stack as well and buy you some extra time. Especially useful if the guy has a good triangle and is good at breaking your posture.

84

[quote]slimjim wrote:
…but another option to keep in mind is to pinch the elbow on the side of leg 2, preventing it from getting a good lock. this will help to create space as you go for a stack as well and buy you some extra time. Especially useful if the guy has a good triangle and is good at breaking your posture.[/quote]

Do you mean something like this? brazilian jiu jitsu triangle escape - YouTube

85

[quote]pch2 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
…but another option to keep in mind is to pinch the elbow on the side of leg 2, preventing it from getting a good lock. this will help to create space as you go for a stack as well and buy you some extra time. Especially useful if the guy has a good triangle and is good at breaking your posture.

Do you mean something like this? brazilian jiu jitsu triangle escape - YouTube

haha, I’ve been trying to get that vid to play all day, but my stupid computer won’t add the right plug in - I’ll have to check it out at work tomorrow. basically I just drive the elbow of the arm still inside the triangle into the quad of the leg on the same side (as the elbow) and twist my body in the same direction preventing a good lock. sorry, I suck at explaining things on the internet

86

I drilled the sit and pry and the video I linked to and they both felt good. Rolling, they weren’t as pretty, but sit and pry worked, and the one from the video worked, but just because he didn’t take the opportunity to take my arm. In the latter, holding on to the pants/cupping his thigh is really essential.

Sit and pry only worked with the guys smaller guy I rolled with, and because I was feeling mean, it works a lot faster if you put your foot in his face. Bearing all of my weight onto the knee on belly part of the video worked for the bigger (about 70lbs heavier) guy. I think because knee on belly is so uncomfortable.

Overall I really liked the moves, thanks guys!

87

We used to call that persusive technique
in wrestling.

things that inflict enough pain to get people to do what you need
but there is a fine line with this.

But you will find in BJJ there are plenty of things you can do that are legal a little mean but not too mean.

kmc

88

[quote]slimjim wrote:
pch2 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
…but another option to keep in mind is to pinch the elbow on the side of leg 2, preventing it from getting a good lock. this will help to create space as you go for a stack as well and buy you some extra time. Especially useful if the guy has a good triangle and is good at breaking your posture.

Do you mean something like this?

haha, I’ve been trying to get that vid to play all day, but my stupid computer won’t add the right plug in - I’ll have to check it out at work tomorrow. basically I just drive the elbow of the arm still inside the triangle into the quad of the leg on the same side (as the elbow) and twist my body in the same direction preventing a good lock. sorry, I suck at explaining things on the internet [/quote]

The video wasn’t what I was picturing (the method that I was taught, which sounded like the one you were talking about) from your description.

One of the methods that I was taught to do was to take the trapped arm and create downward/outward pressure on the leg on the same side. You can sort of hug the leg if you want to, and it doesn’t require that you’re wearing a gi to grab his pants leg. This creates space between your shoulder and your neck and pretty much means that you won’t go out. You might still feel a little light headed from pressure on just one carotid, but unless both are blocked you won’t go out.

The only thing is that you can’t stay in this position. If you do your opponent can reach up with their hand (same side of the leg that is across the back of your neck) and grab their ankle, then re-figure 4 their legs. Their arm now takes the place of your shoulder and they can again choke you out.

One of the simplest counters that I was taught (from the first position with you creating space to buy yourself time) is to stack violently. Basically get up on your feet and lift them up quickly and only a little bit, causing their weight to land on their head/neck. Then “steamroll” over them, thus pretty much performing a “can opener” but using your/their bodyweight to enact the lock instead of your arms/back muscles.

You have to pick them up quickly though, and only enough to get them up on their neck/back of head. If you lift them too high, they can get up on the top of their head, and the move won’t work, or they can put their ear to their shoulder and roll you through.

Posturing out works well if you can catch them early into the attempt. But I don’t like it too much once they have the move in deep. Especially if they understand how the neck is, and isn’t strong. If they pull on the back of your head, or the top of your head, you’re going to be able to posture out of the move. But if they grab the top left or right quadrant of your head and pull your head down at an angle, you aren’t resisting/posturing out of it. They’re going to control your head, so you’d better know other methods.

89

This may be a stupid question but you all keep referring to the ‘can opener’ and I’ve never heard that term (in reference to BJJ). Youtube gives me a variety of things, can someone point me on the correct path?

90

[quote]pch2 wrote:
This may be a stupid question but you all keep referring to the ‘can opener’ and I’ve never heard that term (in reference to BJJ). Youtube gives me a variety of things, can someone point me on the correct path?[/quote]

It’s essentially a neck crank. The classical (at least most commonly seen) way of doing it is to grab the back of the opponent’s head with both hands and bring his chin to his chest, thus putting strain on his neck. One of the videos posted, the one of Bas Rutten’s triangle defense showcased a can opener to break the triangle.

If I’m doing it with my hands I don’t like to pull the opponent’s head straight forward (chin to chest) as:

  1. some guys have very good neck flexibility and the chin actually somewhat limits how far you can crank the neck in this fashion

  2. the neck is very strong in this ROM, especially with wrestlers

I prefer (and was taught) to turn the head first, then pull the ear to the chest. Not only does turning the head off center line greatly decrease the strength of the neck (and the whole body for that matter), but the chin is also no longer limiting ROM, so you can crank much further.

91

I still haven’t been able to view the video, but Sento gave a much better description of what I was trying to say…it’s a pretty effective way to avoid a triangle, obviously not bulletproof, but one of my favorite options.

92

Sweet, thanks for all of the answers! I’ve been playing with the triangle defenses (one of our guys won juvenile worlds with mostly triangles, so they’re rampant and I’m tired of getting stuck in them!) and it’s pretty much working.

I don’t think I’ll ever run out of questions, so if it gets annoying, let me know.

Things that popped up today -

I find myself in turtle a lot. Other than hide, what can I do from that position?

I like mean things; rape choke, gi burns, feet on faces. What mean things do you all have that I can add to my arsenal?

93

[quote]pch2 wrote:
Sweet, thanks for all of the answers! I’ve been playing with the triangle defenses (one of our guys won juvenile worlds with mostly triangles, so they’re rampant and I’m tired of getting stuck in them!) and it’s pretty much working.

I don’t think I’ll ever run out of questions, so if it gets annoying, let me know.

Things that popped up today -

I find myself in turtle a lot. Other than hide, what can I do from that position?

I like mean things; rape choke, gi burns, feet on faces. What mean things do you all have that I can add to my arsenal? [/quote]

How mean are we talking? :wink:

I could probably tell you lots of things that are very much illegal in BJJ (or pretty much any) tournaments, but that work quite well.

I’ll stick to a couple (at least fairly) legal things though.

  1. If the opponent reaches through under and around your waist, grab his/her hand with the same side hand at the wrist, put your shoulder where your other post hand was and roll them over you and through and wind up in side control.

  2. From the position above (prior to the roll) secure their wrist (grab the actual hand with the opposite side hand and twist their wrist if possible), and figure 4 their arm. Now turn towards that side (basically winding up in a kimura from guard).

  3. Let them throw in 1 or two hooks and as soon as they do roll so that they are on their back and you are on top of them. They now will most likely now have a classical “rear guard” position on you (if they are a BJJ guy/girl, if they’re a wrestler they might do a different type of ride, in which case this move might not be as applicable).

You don’t want them to get a body triangle, so as soon as you feel them throw in 1 or 2 hooks go for the move.

If they don’t know what they’re doing and cross their feet, take your legs and figure 4 them over their feet (I personally like to use the foot on the same side as their top foot on top, but I’ve gotten it both ways) and use your hips to basically perform a heel hook/straight ankle lock (depending on how you catch their feet) on them.

If they don’t cross their legs, they’re still not in a safe position, contrary to what many jiu-jitsu guys will teach you. In this case go for what’s called a “shin lock”.

To do this:

  1. Pick a side which you want to attack (doesn’t really matter which side, heck you can actually attack both sides at the same time and use it as an escape).

  2. Roll to that side, thus trapping their upper leg under your body

  3. Grab their foot (around the ball of the foot) with the same side hand, placing your elbow about half way up the inside of their lower leg. You want to place the point of the elbow in the spot right between where the muscle and the bone meet (right below the bottom of the bone on the side of the leg).

  4. You can use the other arm to defend the choke while you do this, or just use it as an assist (making the lock much more powerful).

  5. Now pull their foot up towards you (I like using both hands) while at the same time pushing your elbow in the opposite direction (right through their shin).

This move is VERY painful and will cause them to not only tap if you do it right, but the really great thing about is that doing it pretty much means you don’t even really have to worry about defending the choke (I’m not saying that you shouldn’t still tuck your chin and hunch your shoulders though, every little bit helps).

Even if your opponent has a choke sunk in, they will immediately let go of the choke and tap very, very quickly if you do this move right.

I often like to actually practice doing this. I’ll let someone get rear guard on me and sink a rear naked and tell them to really try to choke me out. Then, I’ll get the shin lock and they always let go of the choke and tap. Hasn’t failed me yet.

Be careful with this though because you can actually compound fracture their shin bone if you are really strong or you do this really violently. You don’t want to cripple your training partners, so play with the move in a controlled environment first until you get the feel for how hard you need to go to get results.

And there you have it, a very, very effective submission that I’ve yet to see anyone do in MMA yet, but really helps one to reduce the fear of having someone get your back.

94

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
In this case go for what’s called a “shin lock”… [/quote]

I tried this today (it was an ankle lock day) and couldn’t nail it, so I asked one of the guys. I now know it hurts like a motherfucker, it’s not even a normal sort of pain. It definitely makes you let go though, lol.

95

[quote]pch2 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
In this case go for what’s called a “shin lock”…

I tried this today (it was an ankle lock day) and couldn’t nail it, so I asked one of the guys. I now know it hurts like a motherfucker, it’s not even a normal sort of pain. It definitely makes you let go though, lol. [/quote]

I know I’m late to the turtle discussion, but your best offense from there is a rolling knee bar if you can trap one of their legs between your 2. Alot of times if I can’t hit the knee bar I still reverse position. It sounds like this shin lock is just a classic case of the person on your back crossing his ankles.

When someone takes my back this is the first thing I look for after I secure and defend my collars. From the turtle you can also attempt a rolling inverted heel hook(very low% though).

96

[quote]snipeout wrote:
pch2 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
In this case go for what’s called a “shin lock”…

I tried this today (it was an ankle lock day) and couldn’t nail it, so I asked one of the guys. I now know it hurts like a motherfucker, it’s not even a normal sort of pain. It definitely makes you let go though, lol.

I know I’m late to the turtle discussion, but your best offense from there is a rolling knee bar if you can trap one of their legs between your 2. Alot of times if I can’t hit the knee bar I still reverse position. It sounds like this shin lock is just a classic case of the person on your back crossing his ankles.
[/quote]

No, the shin lock doesn’t require that the person on your back crosses his/her ankles. A lot of people will teach you that if you don’t cross your ankles you are safe from being leg locked. This move will quickly change their mind.

Here is a vid of it:

97

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

No, the shin lock doesn’t require that the person on your back crosses his/her ankles. A lot of people will teach you that if you don’t cross your ankles you are safe from being leg locked. This move will quickly change their mind.

Here is a vid of it:
Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: Shin Lock - YouTube [/quote]

Hmm…what about if they have a body triangle?

98

need to watch that vid sento (no youtube at work) but in the meantime, the technique you describe pits your armstrength against their leg strength.

If you were to grab for my foot in the way you describe, I would kick my leg straight to free the grip then put the hook back in over your arm, then I have an easier shot at finishing the choke.

(will watch the video tonight and have a play with this tomorrow)

99

[quote]Bram Wiley wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

No, the shin lock doesn’t require that the person on your back crosses his/her ankles. A lot of people will teach you that if you don’t cross your ankles you are safe from being leg locked. This move will quickly change their mind.

Here is a vid of it:

Hmm…what about if they have a body triangle?[/quote]

Obviously the technique isn’t fool proof (nothing is). Against a body triangle, I’m not sure that you could get the lock. You might be able to place pressure on the shin (with the point of your elbow) to break the body triangle. Don’t really know though, as I haven’t really tried it.

100

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
need to watch that vid sento (no youtube at work) but in the meantime, the technique you describe pits your armstrength against their leg strength.

If you were to grab for my foot in the way you describe, I would kick my leg straight to free the grip then put the hook back in over your arm, then I have an easier shot at finishing the choke.

(will watch the video tonight and have a play with this tomorrow)[/quote]

It’s not really about arm strength, it’s more leverage that causes the pain.

Also the quickness with which it hurts is what keeps you safe from them kicking your arm off and trapping it. So, if you don’t get it immediately, you’re done.