BJJ Technical Questions

Training
101

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
need to watch that vid sento (no youtube at work) but in the meantime, the technique you describe pits your armstrength against their leg strength.

If you were to grab for my foot in the way you describe, I would kick my leg straight to free the grip then put the hook back in over your arm, then I have an easier shot at finishing the choke.

(will watch the video tonight and have a play with this tomorrow)[/quote]

You want to first roll to one side to immobilize the thigh and limit your target leg’s mobility. It’s going to be hard to hook over the arm if you can’t move your upper leg much (I know the hooking technique that you’re talking about).

Also, yes you are using one (or both) arms against your opponent’s leg, but you are attacking their leg in a ROM that it is very weak in.

And, even if you muscle your leg out, you now only have one hook controlling my hips, thus allowing me to roll/turn into you so that I am now in your guard (a much better position to be in than in your rear guard).

Like every other technique, it won’t work every single time, and you need to know what to do if it fails, or how to use it to set up other techniques, what possible openings it presents to your opponent, or what openings defending it opens up, etc…

If you’re fast, have a strong grip and do the technique right though, it can become a great little tool in your arsenal of options from that position.

102

[quote]pch2 wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
need to watch that vid sento (no youtube at work) but in the meantime, the technique you describe pits your armstrength against their leg strength.

If you were to grab for my foot in the way you describe, I would kick my leg straight to free the grip then put the hook back in over your arm, then I have an easier shot at finishing the choke.

(will watch the video tonight and have a play with this tomorrow)

It’s not really about arm strength, it’s more leverage that causes the pain.

Also the quickness with which it hurts is what keeps you safe from them kicking your arm off and trapping it. So, if you don’t get it immediately, you’re done. [/quote]

It’s more of a torque, almost like a half cocked toe hold. I don’t think it’s tourney legal.

pch2 nice legs and hot socks, sorry I had to, they catch my eye every thread I see them.

103

[quote]snipeout wrote:
pch2 wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
need to watch that vid sento (no youtube at work) but in the meantime, the technique you describe pits your armstrength against their leg strength.

If you were to grab for my foot in the way you describe, I would kick my leg straight to free the grip then put the hook back in over your arm, then I have an easier shot at finishing the choke.

(will watch the video tonight and have a play with this tomorrow)

It’s not really about arm strength, it’s more leverage that causes the pain.

Also the quickness with which it hurts is what keeps you safe from them kicking your arm off and trapping it. So, if you don’t get it immediately, you’re done.

It’s more of a torque, almost like a half cocked toe hold. I don’t think it’s tourney legal.
[/quote]

Not really, a toe hold works on a similar principle as a heel hook, you are putting pressure on the joint (due to extending the joint and then twisting it).

This move places pressure directly on the shin bone itself. It’s a levering action where you place a wedge (the point of your elbow) into the weakest point on the shin bone, pressing down through the shin bone, and at the same time you are pulling up in the opposite direction with your arm/arms.

The pain isn’t felt in the ankle joint like with a toe hold, but directly in the shin bone. Very, very painful and very quick reaction producing.

As for it being tourney legal, I don’t know, and simply for rolling/sparring purposes I don’t really think it matters. For a self defense situation or a little more hardcore rolling (which I am more used to) it can work great though.

I know I haven’t ever seen someone do it in a tourney/MMA before, though, I always just assumed this was because it wasn’t a commonly known technique.

104

As stated, I have not dismissed it till I have a play with it.

I would state though that rolling to the side is not easy against someone who is good. Most escapes come from rolling to the side and trapping the thigh so I am going to be expecting that and trying to counter it.

Nice to see different options though so thanks.

As for tournament legal, I would say that it is not legal at least till Brown in BJJ (only straight ankle locks are allowed till brown.)

In Sub Grappling and MMA, depends on the tournament rules. Anything where heel hooks and figure fourse are not allowed you probably can’t. Anything where they are you probably can.

105

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
As stated, I have not dismissed it till I have a play with it.
[/quote]

Yeah, I know I wasn’t trying to suggest that you had.

True. Obviously it’s still a good idea to tuck the chin, hunch the shoulders, possibly bock one side off to defend the choke, all the basic defensive tactics when someone has your back.

The move can also be used as an escape without rolling to the side (can even do both legs at the same time if you’re got really strong grip and are fast), but it would leave you more open to that hooking technique you described before.

One other little helpful hint is to use the leg on the same side that you are attacking to help lift the leg up to where it’s easier to reach. If you get a hold of the leg with both hands (even if you don’t roll to the side first), you are going to either escape or submit them though. They can put on a choke all they want, but they’re going to let go of it fast once you start to apply pressure.

In a real (or more hardcore grappling) situation this is obviously more risky as your opponent will have unimpeded access to your eyes, nose, fish hooks, and other nasty tactics. And a well placed eye attack is going to make you let go of the leg real fast.

You’re welcome. I personally think it’s a fairly simple, yet very effective little tool and I’m surprised that I don’t see it used more often (actually ever) in MMA (where heel hooks, toe holds, and other leg locks are all legal). So it’s nice to put it out there for more people to learn about/use.

Who knows, maybe someone reading this thread will take this technique and use it successfully to win a match, or escape a choke that would have lost them a match.

106

In MMA normally you end up taking the back with the guy belly down so I guess that is a factor also, punches to an undefended head are not fun, but still, worth looking at.

I like the Saulo defence from the back at the moment where you try to get as low as possible (instead of the traditional bridge up onto the person.)

right, I am off to train, I’ll report back tomorrow (if I haven’t been choked out too much.)

107

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
In MMA normally you end up taking the back with the guy belly down so I guess that is a factor also, punches to an undefended head are not fun, but still, worth looking at.

I like the Saulo defence from the back at the moment where you try to get as low as possible (instead of the traditional bridge up onto the person.)
[/quote]

Yeah, trying to get as low as possible will make this technique easier as well.

[quote]
right, I am off to train, I’ll report back tomorrow (if I haven’t been choked out too much.)[/quote]

Good luck. Try it without resistance a few times just so you understand the proper placement of the elbow, mechanics, etc… Once you feel comfortable with it start having your opponent add resistance. Then finally try it during live rolling.

108

[quote]snipeout wrote:
It’s more of a torque, almost like a half cocked toe hold. I don’t think it’s tourney legal.

pch2 nice legs and hot socks, sorry I had to, they catch my eye every thread I see them.[/quote]

I was told never do it to anyone but our one mean purple belt, and that it’s not tourney legal.

Thanks.

109

Having played with it a bit I can see how it would work on someone of a lower belt or someone who has short legs relative to my arms.

Anyone of a similar size though was able to straighten their leg to escape it and then use the movement to switch to a body triangle.

Not dismissing it out of hand, and will probably play a bit more. Some techniques though work better for certain bodytypes and styles so if it works for you, more power to you!

There are plenty of things that I do that would get other people tapped out in an instant and they would probably dismiss. Being 6’4" and having very flexible hips is a real advantage for the style of guard game I play!

110

So here’s a problem I have. I am on bottom of half guard. I have the near side underhook, as is conventionally thought to be the better position.

I have my opponents right leg trapped in my half guard. He then faces away from me and sits on his left hip (like a reverse scarf hold or “twister side control” position, only in half guard instead of side control).

The problem I have is two-fold, number one, I have trouble escaping this position period and my opponent can just push on my leg and start to work his leg out. Second, and more important for the moment, is my underhook, which was a good thing, now leaves me open to kimura. I have major trouble getting my arm out of trouble from here.

The times that I do get it out of there, if I put it behind my opponents back, he will just switch back to regular top half-guard control only now he has the underhook or my arm trapped across in an arm-triangle type hold.

What do you do when your opponent turns and faces away from your face when he’s on top in half guard?

Thanks!

111

[quote]danew wrote:
So here’s a problem I have. I am on bottom of half guard. I have the near side underhook, as is conventionally thought to be the better position.

I have my opponents right leg trapped in my half guard. He then faces away from me and sits on his left hip (like a reverse scarf hold or “twister side control” position, only in half guard instead of side control).

The problem I have is two-fold, number one, I have trouble escaping this position period and my opponent can just push on my leg and start to work his leg out. Second, and more important for the moment, is my underhook, which was a good thing, now leaves me open to kimura. I have major trouble getting my arm out of trouble from here.

The times that I do get it out of there, if I put it behind my opponents back, he will just switch back to regular top half-guard control only now he has the underhook or my arm trapped across in an arm-triangle type hold.

What do you do when your opponent turns and faces away from your face when he’s on top in half guard?

Thanks![/quote]

You are saying this guy turns away leaving his back exposed to you or turns in attempting like a baseball slide 1/2 guard pass? My solution to the basebal slide pass would be to stay very active in 1/2, you must off balance them right away not let them flatten you at all. I use the lockdown on the leg I have in 1/2 guard and shoot my body towards the other leg.

It is my variation of an x-guard sweep, it is a little harder but safer than x guard sweep because i still have that one leg trapped.

If they turn away from me basicly giving their back you just scoot your hips out until you have their back. In jiu jitsu if someone turns away from you there is a way to back mount them you just have to get there quick enough.

112

[quote]snipeout wrote:
danew wrote:
So here’s a problem I have. I am on bottom of half guard. I have the near side underhook, as is conventionally thought to be the better position.

I have my opponents right leg trapped in my half guard. He then faces away from me and sits on his left hip (like a reverse scarf hold or “twister side control” position, only in half guard instead of side control).

The problem I have is two-fold, number one, I have trouble escaping this position period and my opponent can just push on my leg and start to work his leg out. Second, and more important for the moment, is my underhook, which was a good thing, now leaves me open to kimura. I have major trouble getting my arm out of trouble from here.

The times that I do get it out of there, if I put it behind my opponents back, he will just switch back to regular top half-guard control only now he has the underhook or my arm trapped across in an arm-triangle type hold.

What do you do when your opponent turns and faces away from your face when he’s on top in half guard?

Thanks!

You are saying this guy turns away leaving his back exposed to you or turns in attempting like a baseball slide 1/2 guard pass? My solution to the basebal slide pass would be to stay very active in 1/2, you must off balance them right away not let them flatten you at all. I use the lockdown on the leg I have in 1/2 guard and shoot my body towards the other leg.

It is my variation of an x-guard sweep, it is a little harder but safer than x guard sweep because i still have that one leg trapped.

If they turn away from me basicly giving their back you just scoot your hips out until you have their back. In jiu jitsu if someone turns away from you there is a way to back mount them you just have to get there quick enough.

[/quote]

Indeed, thank you for the response. I meant they were turning their back to me, yes, but in half guard. They obviously are not loose so I can simply move to their back. They slide the untrapped knee to my hip to block any hip escape and my now exposed arm that was underhooking is in danger.

113

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sentoguy wrote: What do you do (and I’m just asking about personal preference) if the guy defends/escapes your guillotine? Like let’s say he throws his arm over your shoulder, grabs your wrist with his other hand while pulling down (to relieve pressure on his neck), and again postures up placing his weight down into his shoulder/your neck, thus forcing you to let go of the guillotine. Do you have a flow from there that you like to use?

Guillotine sweep! I saw it in an old Royler Gracie book, and have never been taught it in any of the many schools I’ve trained at.

I am the ONLY guy I see using this. Why? No clue, since it’s super effective. I’ve even caught brown belts with it.

[/quote]

That’s a great sweep, but if you say you’ve trained at lots of places and never seen it, it makes me wonder where you’ve been training.

114

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Here are a couple of vids from Cecchine for anyone who is interested:

Americana/Top wrist lock:

This twist and different hand positioning (I have seen some JJ guys teach this hand positioning) make a huge difference with this lock. There is absolutely no way that the person is going to muscle their arm out straight, it becomes nearly impossible for them to grab their own hand and wrist lock you (counter), and switching to a one arm control (and/or wrist lock) is much easier.

Here’s the same trick and some details applied to the Kimura:

Here is a much tighter way of doing a sit through/head and arm/scarfhold:

Here is Cecchine talking and demonstrating some principles for controlling your opponent while in their guard (open or closed):

Note: The guy he is demoing on (Bruce) might be a great amatuer wrestler, but he sucks at doing arm bars, obviously. Still the principles work, as I’ve been able to use them effectively against skilled BJJ guys.[/quote]

Thanks for the links, Ofuro-otoko. Unfortunately they’re down now. I’ve never met anyone who’s trained catch, except for some Japanese off-shoots of it (along with “Lancashire Wrestling”).

Could you recommend any other links where I could learn more about real catch?

115

He shouldn’t be able to get the Kimura finished because he would have to put all of his weight past your centre line which gives you a straight line to his back (just open legs and use your left leg to post for the hip escape.

That said, you want to bring your right elbow in to your body and try to get on your right side, this defends the arm and forces him to try to flatten you back out. As he changes position to flatten you out there should be an opening either to go back to full guard or to sweep.

Another tactic that I like to use in this position is to get my left knee between my body and his, you can now bear his weight on your left leg and kick your right leg back so that you have come up to a 50/50 position, from here you have some great takedown opportunities.

116

Thanks Cockney Blue