BJJ...a Love/Hate Story

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.

42

I highly recommend that you read “Meditations on Violence” by Rory Miller. It’s another thing that explains this better than I can.

In street violence, it’s often the guy who hits first, keeps hitting, and is more brutal that wins that fight. It’s just so much different than any kind of ring violence I can’t even explain it.

43

My interjection lacks the depth of alot of my counterparts in here. I am a blue belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu. I wrestled for 7 years continiously 6th grade to first year of college. I have to say that at first I hated the Gi. I had been exposed to it doing Hapkido as a middle schooler, then Judo in a Community College class. As I got to the second level of the Judo class, I begin to see the enhanced realism and advantages of the Gi. The indeed the Gi was far more than a formality but actually a simulation of real life combat. People rarely fight in their boxers.

I now have been training Gi for 2 years off and on. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Firstly because no gi grappling (notice I said grappling) has minimal translation into a street fight. Wrestling does, but ground grappling very little; while knowledge of submissions is valuable, try putting a guy in an arm bar with several of his buddies around and see how quick you get stomped rolling on the floor. How many NoGi mma gyms practice the standing holds and submissions with even a decimal of the frequency or regularity of the ground base movements?

The most effective and quickest way to disable some one on the street would be to choke them with their own shirt, or to flip them onto their head after suffocating them with their hoodie. Quick control with minimal personal investment is key. Having to get tight up no a guy to throw him is no good if there are multiple attackers or potentially weapons around. Wrapping him in a pretzel thus disabling his movement, then blood choking him with those clothes till he passes out is perhaps the most effective means of control.

The other advantage as has been mentioned before, is it improves your all around grappling. You learn more subtle points of leverage because they are exageratted with the gi. You first learn to grab the gi to play with new ways to break mans kazushi, then to actuall apply those it must be fast, then as you learn to do it fast, you realize you don’t need that much grip or hold on the gi in the first place ~ then you learn entirely new ways to break a man’s balance with or without a gi.

I think the gi rules. I think anyone serious about street self defense and not just showboat fighting would be behooved to train with a gi on, or some other form of grippable apparel.

44

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I highly recommend that you read “Meditations on Violence” by Rory Miller. It’s another thing that explains this better than I can.

In street violence, it’s often the guy who hits first, keeps hitting, and is more brutal that wins that fight. It’s just so much different than any kind of ring violence I can’t even explain it.[/quote]

this.

The most brutal one will always win, they don’t care if you are a black belt in something, a golden gloves boxer, olympic wrestler.

The mind-set is totally different.

My sensei always said, in a street brawl you have no honor, you hit him in the nuts, hit him with a table, stab him, gouge his eyes out, bite his face, do whatever you can to get alive out of there.

I think the concept that zecarlo is trying to say is on a party when some douche shoves you, not walking in a slum in the middle of Bronx.

45

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
I now have been training Gi for 2 years off and on. I wouldn’t have it any other way. Firstly because no gi grappling (notice I said grappling) has minimal translation into a street fight. Wrestling does, but ground grappling very little; while knowledge of submissions is valuable, try putting a guy in an arm bar with several of his buddies around and see how quick you get stomped rolling on the floor. How many NoGi mma gyms practice the standing holds and submissions with even a decimal of the frequency or regularity of the ground base movements?

The most effective and quickest way to disable some one on the street would be to choke them with their own shirt, or to flip them onto their head after suffocating them with their hoodie. Quick control with minimal personal investment is key. Having to get tight up no a guy to throw him is no good if there are multiple attackers or potentially weapons around. Wrapping him in a pretzel thus disabling his movement, then blood choking him with those clothes till he passes out is perhaps the most effective means of control.
[/quote]

I cannot comment on most of your post because I don’t know the subtle variations of gi vs. no-gi, but I can say that while I agree that standing submissions and holds are far more applicable to streetfighting, be careful using blood chokes and the like because they’re pretty much guaranteed to put you in front of a judge if you go too far.

Which, I’m just saying, I like to avoid.

carry on.

46

going back to the gi, nogi thing. For the most part, I would say train just nogi if you want to be able to get to the point where you can beat the average blue belt level fighter in nogi or in MMA. Train with a gi if you ever want to get to towards the top of the food chain.

Training just nogi will typically put the sort of bad habits in your game that when you get to the higher levels you will wish that you had taken the extra time to avoid.

47

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.[/quote]

Which is exactly what I am saying. If a woman wakes up in the middle of the night with some intruder in her bed she has no choice and what will more likely save her? Boxing or BJJ? If I have no choice and the attacker is a foot taller and over 50 pounds heavier am I going to box him?

The thing is that so many BJJ haters say BJJ makes claims that it doesn’t. Rickson Gracie was asked what he would do when faced with multiple attackers. He answered that he would run and get his brothers. When I took Kenpo they taught us techniques to fight multiple attackers. Of course it was BS but it made the claim it could teach you to beat 3 or more guys at once. Rickson, who has a Bruce Lee like stature in BJJ, had no problems saying he would run away. He didn’t say he could fight 10 guys at once because he is a BJJ god. At an early Gracie tournament Royce was upset that people were guard jumping. When he asked one person why he jumped guard he answered that he, Royce, fought off his back in the UFC. Royce responded that if he was on his back it was because he had no choice and given the choice he would not want to be there. The idea that BJJ says to always go to the ground, that it only teaches that option, does not come from BJJ. It’s something that someone who never really trained BJJ made up. BJJ has been around a long time. All of these questions that people bring up are nothing new and have been addressed. Does someone think that Helio never considered the issue of multiple attackers? Weapons? BJJ didn’t evolve in some American suburban environment but in Brazil.

48

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
going back to the gi, nogi thing. For the most part, I would say train just nogi if you want to be able to get to the point where you can beat the average blue belt level fighter in nogi or in MMA. Train with a gi if you ever want to get to towards the top of the food chain.

Training just nogi will typically put the sort of bad habits in your game that when you get to the higher levels you will wish that you had taken the extra time to avoid.[/quote]

This is very true. Train no-gi for a few months then go back to gi for a few months. If you then go no gi again you’ll find that you are better at it. It doesn’t seem logical but it’s true.

49

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.[/quote]

Which is exactly what I am saying. If a woman wakes up in the middle of the night with some intruder in her bed she has no choice and what will more likely save her? Boxing or BJJ? If I have no choice and the attacker is a foot taller and over 50 pounds heavier am I going to box him?

The thing is that so many BJJ haters say BJJ makes claims that it doesn’t. Rickson Gracie was asked what he would do when faced with multiple attackers. He answered that he would run and get his brothers. When I took Kenpo they taught us techniques to fight multiple attackers. Of course it was BS but it made the claim it could teach you to beat 3 or more guys at once. Rickson, who has a Bruce Lee like stature in BJJ, had no problems saying he would run away. He didn’t say he could fight 10 guys at once because he is a BJJ god. At an early Gracie tournament Royce was upset that people were guard jumping. When he asked one person why he jumped guard he answered that he, Royce, fought off his back in the UFC. Royce responded that if he was on his back it was because he had no choice and given the choice he would not want to be there. The idea that BJJ says to always go to the ground, that it only teaches that option, does not come from BJJ. It’s something that someone who never really trained BJJ made up. BJJ has been around a long time. All of these questions that people bring up are nothing new and have been addressed. Does someone think that Helio never considered the issue of multiple attackers? Weapons? BJJ didn’t evolve in some American suburban environment but in Brazil. [/quote]

Listen buddy, I get that your balls deep on the Gracies. That’s your choice. I’ve done my part on this thread.

50

but we can’t let slide that BJJ isn’t what it used to be, now it’s all about competition and point advantage, and how many academies left the self-defense part behind.

That’s why when i went to train with the Gracies(Rorion, Ryron, Ralek, Rener) they teach only the basic that work against an bigger, stronger(ONE ON ONE) opponent and not all variations and stuff like X-guard, Rubber-guard, de la riva, 50/50 guard that you see on tournaments. And they specifically told me that they stop competing at bjj because it lost it’s essence, same thing for MMA and Vale Tudo and early UFC

51

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.[/quote]

Which is exactly what I am saying. If a woman wakes up in the middle of the night with some intruder in her bed she has no choice and what will more likely save her? Boxing or BJJ? If I have no choice and the attacker is a foot taller and over 50 pounds heavier am I going to box him?

The thing is that so many BJJ haters say BJJ makes claims that it doesn’t. Rickson Gracie was asked what he would do when faced with multiple attackers. He answered that he would run and get his brothers. When I took Kenpo they taught us techniques to fight multiple attackers. Of course it was BS but it made the claim it could teach you to beat 3 or more guys at once. Rickson, who has a Bruce Lee like stature in BJJ, had no problems saying he would run away. He didn’t say he could fight 10 guys at once because he is a BJJ god. At an early Gracie tournament Royce was upset that people were guard jumping. When he asked one person why he jumped guard he answered that he, Royce, fought off his back in the UFC. Royce responded that if he was on his back it was because he had no choice and given the choice he would not want to be there. The idea that BJJ says to always go to the ground, that it only teaches that option, does not come from BJJ. It’s something that someone who never really trained BJJ made up. BJJ has been around a long time. All of these questions that people bring up are nothing new and have been addressed. Does someone think that Helio never considered the issue of multiple attackers? Weapons? BJJ didn’t evolve in some American suburban environment but in Brazil. [/quote]

You are ignoring Irish’s points.
Who cares what Rickson, Royce or Helio said? The way BJJ is taught NOW is what’s relevant.

Most schools I’ve been to don’t emphasize self-defense. They emphasize sport. They emphasize art.

Irish is spot on in this as usual (well for the most part, I still think he’s a BJJ-hater lol). Taking the art as it is, as it was taught to me, and my experiences with Judo and karate/kickboxing, I’d have to say that as SELF DEFENSE, BJJ alone is ineffective.

All that awareness stuff, mental conditioning aside, and focusing solely on the techniques that are emphasized, can one really claim that Brazilian JuiJitsu useful for anything other than restraint and ground positioning in a SELF DEFENSE SCENARIO.

52

haha I am no hater. Believe it or not when I did BJJ I really enjoyed it. I can’t watch it for shit, but actually rolling is awesome and believe me when I tell you I fully understand the difficulty of it, as well as the mental chess game that goes on when two solid practitioners are going at it. Contrary to how it might seem I do admire the art, as I do all martial arts.

And its useful, I’ve found, especially when you’re trying to restrain somebody who you don’t want to hurt. Two of my buddies get in a drunk fight with each other, you’ll use BJJ. Your uncle gets out of hand at a family part with his ex-wife or whatever, you’ll use BJJ. You’re trying to prove dominance over your cousin who wrestled for 15 years who thinks he could beat your ass at Christmas, you use BJJ.

It’s just lacking in the brutal no-rules areas that happen outside of those types of situations.

53

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
haha I am no hater. Believe it or not when I did BJJ I really enjoyed it. I can’t watch it for shit, but actually rolling is awesome and believe me when I tell you I fully understand the difficulty of it, as well as the mental chess game that goes on when two solid practitioners are going at it. Contrary to how it might seem I do admire the art, as I do all martial arts.

And its useful, I’ve found, especially when you’re trying to restrain somebody who you don’t want to hurt. Two of my buddies get in a drunk fight with each other, you’ll use BJJ. Your uncle gets out of hand at a family part with his ex-wife or whatever, you’ll use BJJ. You’re trying to prove dominance over your cousin who wrestled for 15 years who thinks he could beat your ass at Christmas, you use BJJ.

It’s just lacking in the brutal no-rules areas that happen outside of those types of situations.
[/quote]

Well said.

If I could I would add the addendum that grappling also works/thrives at the other end. Where you are willing to sacrifice your mobility to cripple/severely injure/possibly kill. Like I wrote before. Slaughterhouse, killing gets done on the floor. Of course this is an area I hope we are all mature enough not to ever want to venture into, especially bare handed.

Regards,

Robert A

54

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
haha I am no hater. Believe it or not when I did BJJ I really enjoyed it. I can’t watch it for shit, but actually rolling is awesome and believe me when I tell you I fully understand the difficulty of it, as well as the mental chess game that goes on when two solid practitioners are going at it. Contrary to how it might seem I do admire the art, as I do all martial arts.

And its useful, I’ve found, especially when you’re trying to restrain somebody who you don’t want to hurt. Two of my buddies get in a drunk fight with each other, you’ll use BJJ. Your uncle gets out of hand at a family part with his ex-wife or whatever, you’ll use BJJ. You’re trying to prove dominance over your cousin who wrestled for 15 years who thinks he could beat your ass at Christmas, you use BJJ.

It’s just lacking in the brutal no-rules areas that happen outside of those types of situations.
[/quote]

Stop putting down my art damnit! BJJ works on the streetz, the Gracies told me so!

55

lol everytime you guys discuss about bjj and street fighting i can’t stop laughing and remember about this video.

56

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.[/quote]

Which is exactly what I am saying. If a woman wakes up in the middle of the night with some intruder in her bed she has no choice and what will more likely save her? Boxing or BJJ? If I have no choice and the attacker is a foot taller and over 50 pounds heavier am I going to box him?

The thing is that so many BJJ haters say BJJ makes claims that it doesn’t. Rickson Gracie was asked what he would do when faced with multiple attackers. He answered that he would run and get his brothers. When I took Kenpo they taught us techniques to fight multiple attackers. Of course it was BS but it made the claim it could teach you to beat 3 or more guys at once. Rickson, who has a Bruce Lee like stature in BJJ, had no problems saying he would run away. He didn’t say he could fight 10 guys at once because he is a BJJ god. At an early Gracie tournament Royce was upset that people were guard jumping. When he asked one person why he jumped guard he answered that he, Royce, fought off his back in the UFC. Royce responded that if he was on his back it was because he had no choice and given the choice he would not want to be there. The idea that BJJ says to always go to the ground, that it only teaches that option, does not come from BJJ. It’s something that someone who never really trained BJJ made up. BJJ has been around a long time. All of these questions that people bring up are nothing new and have been addressed. Does someone think that Helio never considered the issue of multiple attackers? Weapons? BJJ didn’t evolve in some American suburban environment but in Brazil. [/quote]

Listen buddy, I get that your balls deep on the Gracies. That’s your choice. I’ve done my part on this thread.
[/quote]

The internet is a great thing, is it not? Someone like you, a complete nobody, can come here and try to pass yourself off as some expert and put down people who we know exist and whose abilities and accomplishments are well known. Someone should take self-defense advice from you because supposedly you have been in many bar fights instead of from someone who has tested himself against opponents who were trained to fight (not drunken frat boys) and also has worked with law enforcement and the military?

I bring up some questions, such as the woman confronted with the rapist, and you choose to avoid answering them. Obviously no art has the solution to every problem but it’s also obvious you have some personal issues with BJJ. Maybe it’s the fact that every boxer you wanted to fellate when growing up would have been beaten easily by any of the Gracies. I know you love this place because you get to feel like some guru, with a douchebag attitude (I know, it’s a Jersey thing), but the reality is, again, you are a nobody. You are not an expert and you are not even that good at whatever it is you do. I’ll leave you alone now since it’s obvious you don’t want to engage in a debate, as you avoid questions, because you really don’t have any answers.

57

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The funny thing about that article is that he basically says that the conditions under which you would not want to grapple are conditions under which you don’t want to fight, period.

So if grappling is not a good option then fighting is not a good option. He also mentions how after Royce left the UFC it was dominated by guys like Shamrock and Severn. Hmmmmmm…two grapplers. I don’t see how that proved any point about grappling’s ineffectiveness. [/quote]

Because he is NOT talking about street fighting, he’s talking about self-defense. Self defense is when you DON’T WANT to fight but are forced to in order to physically protect yourself. It is a situation that’s put upon you, not one where you chose to engage.[/quote]

Which is exactly what I am saying. If a woman wakes up in the middle of the night with some intruder in her bed she has no choice and what will more likely save her? Boxing or BJJ? If I have no choice and the attacker is a foot taller and over 50 pounds heavier am I going to box him?

The thing is that so many BJJ haters say BJJ makes claims that it doesn’t. Rickson Gracie was asked what he would do when faced with multiple attackers. He answered that he would run and get his brothers. When I took Kenpo they taught us techniques to fight multiple attackers. Of course it was BS but it made the claim it could teach you to beat 3 or more guys at once. Rickson, who has a Bruce Lee like stature in BJJ, had no problems saying he would run away. He didn’t say he could fight 10 guys at once because he is a BJJ god. At an early Gracie tournament Royce was upset that people were guard jumping. When he asked one person why he jumped guard he answered that he, Royce, fought off his back in the UFC. Royce responded that if he was on his back it was because he had no choice and given the choice he would not want to be there. The idea that BJJ says to always go to the ground, that it only teaches that option, does not come from BJJ. It’s something that someone who never really trained BJJ made up. BJJ has been around a long time. All of these questions that people bring up are nothing new and have been addressed. Does someone think that Helio never considered the issue of multiple attackers? Weapons? BJJ didn’t evolve in some American suburban environment but in Brazil. [/quote]

Listen buddy, I get that your balls deep on the Gracies. That’s your choice. I’ve done my part on this thread.
[/quote]

The internet is a great thing, is it not? Someone like you, a complete nobody, can come here and try to pass yourself off as some expert and put down people who we know exist and whose abilities and accomplishments are well known. Someone should take self-defense advice from you because supposedly you have been in many bar fights instead of from someone who has tested himself against opponents who were trained to fight (not drunken frat boys) and also has worked with law enforcement and the military?

I bring up some questions, such as the woman confronted with the rapist, and you choose to avoid answering them. Obviously no art has the solution to every problem but it’s also obvious you have some personal issues with BJJ. Maybe it’s the fact that every boxer you wanted to fellate when growing up would have been beaten easily by any of the Gracies. I know you love this place because you get to feel like some guru, with a douchebag attitude (I know, it’s a Jersey thing), but the reality is, again, you are a nobody. You are not an expert and you are not even that good at whatever it is you do. I’ll leave you alone now since it’s obvious you don’t want to engage in a debate, as you avoid questions, because you really don’t have any answers. [/quote]

I have never passed myself off as an expert. In fact, I posted links to pages that people actually DO consider experts just because I don’t consider myself an expert. I make my points as best I can so people don’t fall into the trap that you already have of totally swallowing down all of the garbage advertising and marketing that the Gracies and the grappling world puts out there, and that’s all I can do.

And the argument about boxing vs. BJJ… I just don’t give a shit about that. That’s like you telling me that I don’t like Michael Jordan because he’d beat Eli Manning in a free throw contest. Just doesn’t make sense. Really, I couldn’t give a shit about who wins and loses, I’m not a six year old worshiping heroes. I am talking about how, and where, and when, regular people can apply certain martial systems in order to defend themselves. That’s it.

I think anyone reading who was interested is seeing what I’m talking about, and I have no desire to go round and round with a fanboy who’s lacking basic reading comprehension and wants to repeat the same thing over and over again. We’ve done this before. I’m not doing it again. You want to rub your dick on that Gracie jiu-jitsu sign that I’m sure your dojo has in its window, go to it. I’ve said my piece.

58

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And by the way, I’m not even getting into the real aspects that make up “self defense,” which is awareness and avoidance and recognizing trouble before it happens - which they never teach you in a BJJ class.

What I’m trying to say is that the tactics that BJJ employs for self defense are shitty, but knowing them could help you in some situations, even though they’re situations you don’t want to be in where everything probably got totally FUBAR’d for you to end up there.

But there’s no long term strategy employed at all, and that’s where it’s fault is. I’ve admitted that it’s a fault in my own sport, and left gaps that I had to fill on my own. It just is what it is.[/quote]

Hey Irish, have you ever attended a self defence course taught by one of the gracies? I can assure you (having attended several) that they don’t focus on taking the fights to the ground.

That said, I agree BJJ is a sport. Whatever your reason for coming to it, it’s a sport that you train for fun. Same as any other martal art. All those guys doing Krav Maga or any other ‘real training for the streets’ same thing. Hobby, passtime, sport, whatever you want to call it. Some of the training is better than others, depending on the trainer however let’s stop kidding ourselves.

If your every day life gets you into self defence situations so regularly that you need to train for it, either it’s your job (prison guard, LEO etc) or you really need to look at your lifestyle.

59

Ok, I am going to go ahead and jump into what is turning into a real shit show.

zecarlo,

I am not reading Irish’s posts as saying ground fighting/grappling is a useless skill to have “in the street”. His first posts were a bit too broad brush in my opinion, but I think we hashed that out. I am reading his posts as saying that the way BJJ is commonly taught is not congruent with a focus on actual self defense.

I get that you and he have had a history on this subject before. You may have had it out with him on this board before I was paying attention/posting, but what is your issue in THIS thread? If you take his summation posts at face value; what, if anything, are your points of contention?

It is MY contention (not trying to speak for Irish or anyone else) that grappling is a fantastic skill set. I will also state that the BJJ schools/practitioners I have met (This is me personally) seem focused on sports/competitions. They train for BJJ and No-Gi almost exclusively. Some also compete/train for MMA. I have not witnessed or even heard of any BJJ students or teachers of any rank addressing any of the complicating factors of criminal violence/violence sans referee.

I am not saying they could not beat down the majority of people under anything approaching “even” terms. Many would be hell in any kind of fight, street, ring, mat, whatever. I am just saying they train a “sport” or an “art”. They do not seem to be training for “self-defense”. I am not passing any kind of value judgment on that.

I am of the opinion that training to excel at competition has led to the neglect of “self-defense” aspects of BJJ IN GENERAL; as I have seen BJJ practiced in the Northeastern part of the United States.

I take issue with the assumption that being well versed in BJJ (at least as it is being taught by most) is all one needs to handle “self-defense”/criminal assault/street violence (Actually I would take issue with anyone saying they can be sufficiently prepared for what is essentially an ambush. I simply feel that we can always prepare a little better.) Now, I do not read YOUR posts as making this claim. In fact I suspect whatever school you operate and teach at does not make this claim. However, I have heard it made by BJJ instructors. I have spoken to others who have heard it made. It is this claim that I interpret FightinIrish as railing against (at least as I understood his posts, if I am wrong please correct me Irish).

I am not trying to claim X is better than BJJ for “self defense”, whatever X may be. I am simply saying that if training for self-defense is the main goal, than the BJJ curriculum of most academies is insufficient. I am also going to reiterate that this need not be the case. Originally ju-jutsu covered atemi (OK this just means fucking hitting the guy where it hurts/damages him), standing joint destructions, throws, breaking free of holds, weapons retention, denying an enemy access to a weapon, etc. Really all the high points of what needs to get trained for physically dealing with hostilities at contact ranges. If you are still covering this material with your students than none of the observations I have made apply to you.

I just have not seen this happening. Instead I see the art promoted as either doing everything or as simply “the best” and anything that is not trained for is not survivable anyway. Hell, I have heard the “if more than one run away” mantra, from people who do not (I mean fucking never) teach anything about how to make someone let go of you so you can commence running.

The issue is misrepresenting/mistaking it for something it is not. It happens all too frequently in martial arts. BJJ is not an exception. If training for sport is the accepted goal, than fine. Passing fantastic sports/competition training off as self-defense instruction is intellectually dishonest and unnecessary. We ought not to allow ourselves to do it.

Regards,

Robert A

P.S. In case the above was simply the blithering of a fool, I will make an attempt at a simple, practical suggestion.

This is a way to get a bit more “street/no ref” type of training out of sport/general rolling/grappling sparring. If you have to tap, try to tap out on your partner’s forehead, cup, or inner thigh. Take note of when your partner could have done the same. I am not claiming that getting a hand to the groin or eyes would prevent the destruction of a joint/cause a submission hold to be released. I am just submitting that it makes applying holds a bit “sporty”. Goal being, be aware of such things. Also, if you carry a knife in your daily life, try to get a hand to where you would be carrying it when rolling.

The major value of these exercises being that they can be done in friendly/sport oriented training,unlike biting, finger breaking, gouging, etc.

60

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Hey Irish, have you ever attended a self defence course taught by one of the gracies? I can assure you (having attended several) that they don’t focus on taking the fights to the ground.

[/quote]

You are delusional, I’ve trained with several Gracies and yes the self defense includes fighting going to the ground on their program.